tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post2343548001108559203..comments2024-02-05T03:41:13.688+01:00Comments on Mikeb302000: The Way May-Issue Works in IllinoisAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-68318432949412797232014-04-05T06:29:39.591+02:002014-04-05T06:29:39.591+02:00its typically up to the DA and often comes out as ...its typically up to the DA and often comes out as people V suspect. Officers typically have no say in whether charges are filed, and you are correct in cases going forward if the battered spouse is intimidated. <br />MikeZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-8967569857791406582014-04-04T19:33:02.685+02:002014-04-04T19:33:02.685+02:00Not sure what the style of the case is in those, b...Not sure what the style of the case is in those, but I'm guessing people/state v. suspect.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-36379325893700983462014-04-04T19:32:10.029+02:002014-04-04T19:32:10.029+02:00MikeZ, I was wondering if you were Michael Z. Wil...MikeZ, I was wondering if you were Michael Z. Williams--a sci-fi writer I've seen comment on other blogs on occasion. That's what the question was about.<br /><br /><br />As for the police not being able to press charges, I understand that that is the common baseline. I was referring to changes in the law made in other states and which MikeB could push for. In my state, they passed one of these laws, so sometimes cases will go forward even if the battered spouse is intimidated into dropping the charges.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-55102528770609623032014-04-04T19:15:39.915+02:002014-04-04T19:15:39.915+02:00Since Kurt has told me he is not a law abiding cit...Since Kurt has told me he is not a law abiding citizen, it's laughable to hear him cry about his rights, or anyone's rights being abused. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-60181037163718536022014-04-04T15:52:59.624+02:002014-04-04T15:52:59.624+02:00Simon, not a problem. Its just plain Mike Z. Not...Simon, not a problem. Its just plain Mike Z. Not fsure what you mean with Mike Z W. Usually the police themselves cant press charges as they are not the victims, generally the police are the mediators. If you notice the way tickets are written its the victim v suspect. even on stuff like traffic tickets its the people v suspect or the state v the suspect. <br />MikeZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-87760627924611169022014-04-04T01:56:23.987+02:002014-04-04T01:56:23.987+02:00No, Mike, I insist on using that and other example...No, Mike, I insist on using that and other examples I could have pulled out to show that there are exceptions to the blanket rule you're implicitly proposing, and to illustrate why I want a case by case evaluation via due process of law.<br /><br />In a situation like you claim is the most common, a better solution is to allow the police to continue pressing charges even if the battered spouse withdraws them--so long as they can show the bruises, blood, etc. and show that they were not self inflicted, they can get that conviction and put the bastard away.<br /><br />MikeZ, Thanks for the other info--I was forgetting to mention the common shall arrest policies.<br />BTW, is it Mike Z or Mike Z W the writer?Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-68097588955276508532014-04-04T01:49:16.299+02:002014-04-04T01:49:16.299+02:00Why is it so hard for me to admit that? Two reason...Why is it so hard for me to admit that? Two reasons--One is that you're still overstating your case--even if MOST arrests are of actual batterers, that doesn't mean that this one or any particular one is--there ARE arrests based on false charges. The other is that I'm a stickler for those other parts of the Bill of Rights about no deprivation of life, liberty, or property without Due Process--innocent until proven guilty--all that jazz that you want to toss.<br /><br />At the end, you try to subtly change the topic asking if I want certain individuals armed, switching to a discussion of the "vast majority" who are guilty. Since we're now talking about the guilty, no, I don't want them armed. If we're talking wishes here, I'd have them flogged the first time they beat their wife, and then have them take the long walk the second time. If we're talking doable legislation, many states have statutes that allow the police to continue pressing charges if the battered spouse backs out but they have evidence to continue pursuing them. I like that idea--convict them and lock them up. You'll note that this solution still requires evidence, due process, etc.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-24771748323871439032014-04-03T18:33:09.536+02:002014-04-03T18:33:09.536+02:00Actually Mike, it happens far more than you would ...Actually Mike, it happens far more than you would think. As Simon stated the burden of proof to make the arrest is far lower than that required for a conviction. Most agencies have a shall arrest policy when it comes to accusations of domestic battery, largely for liability reasons. I have made several arrests for domestic battery only to find out after the fact that the accusations were without warrant. One arrest had the female with bruises on her body, only to find out from a witness that the bruises were self inflicted due to the spouses mental illness. Before you run off saying I support DV and i am defending assholes or whatever path you choose, all I am saying is that many of these things you say never happen, actually occur on a fairly regular basis. I know this from being LE myself as well as coming from a family of LEO's. the unfortunate reality is when it comes to domestic situations they are very murky and very complicated.<br />MikeZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-64982698631373713372014-04-03T15:52:43.174+02:002014-04-03T15:52:43.174+02:00Most times when someone gets arrested for domestic...<i>Most times when someone gets arrested for domestic battery it's because when the cops get there the woman has a beaten face and there's blood on the floor, or worse.</i><br /><br />Rights cannot be legitimately denied because "most times" there are grounds for doing so.<br /><br /><b>Innocent, until proven guilty. <i>ALWAYS.</i></b>Kurt '45superman' Hofmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14091930034162667742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-24592461583441363352014-04-03T15:48:02.985+02:002014-04-03T15:48:02.985+02:00The training requirement is waived for the tempora...The training requirement is waived for the temporary permit (which is good for 45 days)--and the entire process is somewhat expedited and streamlined (the state police have to act within one business day after receiving the application). If the permit holder receives the training within that 45-day time frame, the permit is then upgraded a regular permit.<br /><br />Still unconstitutional carry (because of the permit requirement), but a significant improvement for domestic violence victims, when compared to the current system.Kurt '45superman' Hofmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14091930034162667742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-38202004222139678892014-04-03T15:41:20.275+02:002014-04-03T15:41:20.275+02:00Yeah, talk about anecdotal stories. Most times wh...Yeah, talk about anecdotal stories. Most times when someone gets arrested for domestic battery it's because when the cops get there the woman has a beaten face and there's blood on the floor, or worse. You know this, but you insist on using exceedingly rare exceptions to that to justify blanket gun rights for all.<br /><br />If your sister or your mother had a relationship with an abusive asshole, would you be all "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" about it? I don't think so.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-76228998848093971682014-04-03T15:36:34.244+02:002014-04-03T15:36:34.244+02:00You're the one with whom there's no arguin...You're the one with whom there's no arguing. Why is it so hard for you to admit that an arrest for domestic battery, except in extremely rare cases, means the buy was beating up the woman. Later she drops the charges for whatever reason, but that doesn't make him "innocent," at least not in any practical sense of the word. Are you such a gun-rights extremist that you want guys like that, and I'm talking about the vast majority who get arrested for this shit, to own and carry guns?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-68788614537117653752014-04-03T15:32:59.149+02:002014-04-03T15:32:59.149+02:00Kurt, I don't remember if we discussed that Ke...Kurt, I don't remember if we discussed that Kentucky bill or if I just read about it. But, what's the difference between the temporary permit and a regular one. Aren't those victims of domestic abuse eligible to apply for a regular permit like anyone else?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-46799520967152548242014-04-02T22:41:58.083+02:002014-04-02T22:41:58.083+02:00http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2014/03/a-case-of-...http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2014/03/a-case-of-american-blind-justice-as.html<br /><br />But I thought that you felt that this was somewhat extreme, after all it was his wife that made the accusations of having what wasn't there just to get him in trouble.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-42732665424851922332014-04-02T22:07:51.890+02:002014-04-02T22:07:51.890+02:00BTW, TS, regarding the psych admittance vs. the ar...BTW, TS, regarding the psych admittance vs. the arrest, you could be right, but I've seen cases where the arrest led to denials until the denied individual could submit paperwork showing that the charges were dropped, they were found not guilty, etc.<br /><br />Unfortunately, local courts and police departments fail to file the state level paperwork showing the disposition of these cases often enough to make this a real problem.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-89336473398512724202014-04-02T18:28:06.428+02:002014-04-02T18:28:06.428+02:00False statement of facts. Happens plenty often. ...False statement of facts. Happens plenty often. Know of a case where a woman sawed her necklace back and forth, called the cops, and got her husband arrested because she was crying so much about how he slung her around by her collar and necklace.<br /><br />Liberal friend who didn't like guns or my carrying of them got it dismissed and got his guns back for him simply because it was the right thing to do.<br /><br />But go on with your arguing for the destruction of the presumption of innocence and demands of infamy based on arrest.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-9165326711391330032014-04-02T18:25:16.264+02:002014-04-02T18:25:16.264+02:00By the way, Mikeb, if it were true that I'm so...By the way, Mikeb, if it were true that I'm soft on domestic batterers, I wouldn't be so happy about <a href="http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/ky-legislature/2014/03/31/concealed-carry-gun-bill-clears-kentucky-legislature/7138671/" rel="nofollow">legislative passage of <i>this</i> progressive bill</a> in Kentucky, authorizing concealed carry for domestic violence victims:<br /><br /><i>Legislation that would allow victims of domestic violence to temporarily carry concealed deadly weapons has won final passage in the Kentucky legislature.<br /><br />[ . . . ]<br /><br />Included in the bill is a section that will allow people with an emergency protective order or a domestic violence order to apply for a temporary permit for carrying concealed deadly weapons.</i><br /><br />Why can't I shake the idea that you'll suddenly endorse a much higher burden of proof on allegations of domestic violence?Kurt '45superman' Hofmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14091930034162667742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-404874099879458102014-04-02T18:23:33.871+02:002014-04-02T18:23:33.871+02:00You very well can be. But I see there's no ar...You very well can be. But I see there's no arguing with you at this point. You've made up your mind, and no matter how many examples you're shown, you've determined that any arrest for domestic violence is proof of guilt, and that any dismissal is nothing but a broken system letting them get away.<br /><br />Gone is the presumption of innocence. Gone the notion that we should let 10 or 100 guilty get away rather than jail or execute an innocent man. Gone the notion of a need for a trial.<br /><br />All because you believe, in the face of the existence of plenty of evidence to the contrary, that people are incapable of lying about abuse and bringing false charges.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-76066822790835247712014-04-02T18:18:11.043+02:002014-04-02T18:18:11.043+02:00"If he's convicted of domestic battery, I..."If he's convicted of domestic battery, I say bury him under a penitentiary. If charges are dropped, the government must treat him as innocent."<br /><br />EXACTLY!<br /><br /><br />Guess innocent until proven guilty has become too extreme an idea for liberals to uphold anymore.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-61855093309852206492014-04-02T17:32:10.870+02:002014-04-02T17:32:10.870+02:00The reason why you need may-issue is so that convi...The reason why you need may-issue is so that convicted domestic abusers like Sean Penn can still get a carry permit in California, where objective criteria would deny them.TShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04667036856347626234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-37927999578378379972014-04-02T17:07:31.601+02:002014-04-02T17:07:31.601+02:00Mikeb here demonstrates that when someone rejects ...Mikeb here demonstrates that when someone rejects one right, all others are in danger, since he hereby tosses out the principle that we're innocent until proved guilty.Greg Camphttp://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-46556750056999596612014-04-02T16:41:38.396+02:002014-04-02T16:41:38.396+02:00Probable cause,
"A common definition is &quo...Probable cause,<br /><br />"A common definition is "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true"<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause<br /><br /> But, an officer might make an arrest in good faith and it turns out that they were mistaken, then the guy gets let go and there should be NO adverse effects in the future. Rights should not be lost without due process. Especially those in the control of the government, such as issuance of a carry permit. <br /> Minnesota protects this in its permit law by allowing an issuing Sheriff to deny a permit if they believe a person is a danger to self or others, but also gives the denied applicant the opportunity to appeal the decision in front of a judge where the Sheriff would be required to justify his decision. If the appeal is successful, the county is required to pay court costs and reasonable legal fees incurred by the applicant.ssgmarkcrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14480230040370709682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-42599165778639587042014-04-02T16:08:04.140+02:002014-04-02T16:08:04.140+02:00So a case where someone was denied under shall-iss...So a case where someone was denied under shall-issue is a reason why we need may-issue? That only works if you think he should have got his permit- which he could have under may-issue.TShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04667036856347626234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-42362763720350191312014-04-02T15:54:40.211+02:002014-04-02T15:54:40.211+02:00If he's convicted of domestic battery, I say b...If he's convicted of domestic battery, I say bury him under a penitentiary. If charges are dropped, the government must treat him as innocent.<br /><br /><i>This is exactly why we need "may issue."</i><br /><br />You ain't gonna get it :-).Kurt '45superman' Hofmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14091930034162667742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-8840054209378409902014-04-02T15:24:14.328+02:002014-04-02T15:24:14.328+02:00This guy was ARRESTED for domestic BATTERY. That ...This guy was ARRESTED for domestic BATTERY. That doesn't happen by mistake or because of a contentious divorce. That happens when the cops are called in and witness the aftermath of a violent scene. Whatever happens after that, that guy should not get a carry permit. he shouldn't even be allowed to own guns at all.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.com