tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post2015582448109616368..comments2024-02-05T03:41:13.688+01:00Comments on Mikeb302000: Montana Homeowner Faces Felony Homicide Charge after Fatally Shooting Teen Intruder - Another Castle Doctrine DisasterAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-22457700574602738842014-05-13T16:41:35.350+02:002014-05-13T16:41:35.350+02:00It may not be cold blooded murder. Many times a pe...It may not be cold blooded murder. Many times a person pulls in to their garage and enters their home only to find out the garage door they thought closed had lifted back up again. Happens all the time. No one has the right to enter just because the door is up. An uninvited person poses a threat to a person living there. This "child" as they call him burglarized the home twice before. Just because he is visiting he doesn't have the right to tour other peoples homes uninvited. <br /><br />He/they would have moved on to bolder crimes. Often when they get in college they see themselves as spies and go onto reducing the quality of life for Americans by constantly robbing them and starting their own like-media spotz for their criminal activities under the Freedom of Speech-often baiting unsuspecting Americans and helping to entrap them for prison. Then they can move into the home they started burglarizing.<br /><br />We have several college students in my area that do that for their causes and agendas. Often it is politically motivated as they aren't educated enough and do not have enough life experience to make wise choices. They will invite their friends over to other peoples' homes in the dead of night hoping they will be shot. They will steal items from cars, shine lights in windows, go through trash, and put names on a list in which the victim gets bombarded with junk mail, harassing calls, and generalized medical information. They will often enter the home and place objects in peoples wallets, steal mail, and threaten the lives of anyone in their path. They will vandalize and then go after the places that fix the objects they have vandalized. They call it research. They get the approval of the authorities by renaming it in such a way.<br /><br />People who think the world should take care of their kids are in for a sad awakening. They don't want to wait until they are in their 40s to grow up!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-25583981627161329152014-05-03T17:35:52.620+02:002014-05-03T17:35:52.620+02:00So you're adding the 5th amendment to your lis...So you're adding the 5th amendment to your list of rights you don't like?TShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04667036856347626234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-64969408622283140482014-05-03T13:56:28.687+02:002014-05-03T13:56:28.687+02:00On The Truth About Guns there have been dozens of ...On The Truth About Guns there have been dozens of posts offering advice to self-defense shooters. Simply put it's "STFU." I've pointed out many times to them that this advice, in some cases, is assisting people in getting away with murder. <br /><br />So, I don't really buy your black and white view of things. Many pro gun folks are indeed assisting in the abuse of these laws supposedly put in place to protect legitimate shooters.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-32105630102025201492014-05-02T16:48:53.298+02:002014-05-02T16:48:53.298+02:00Dodging the bulk of what's been said to zoom i...Dodging the bulk of what's been said to zoom in on defending Laci's exaggerations since he won't do it himself and refuses to argue without hyperbole--hyperbole he maintains is true.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-17782796149212169112014-05-02T16:43:47.035+02:002014-05-02T16:43:47.035+02:00Not really, because the ones I've seen always ...Not really, because the ones I've seen always properly defined "castle-doctrine-type self-defense" such that nobody would think that this situation would qualify.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-1823453313840844332014-05-02T16:40:17.979+02:002014-05-02T16:40:17.979+02:00Ah yes. It's so empowering to convict the pers...Ah yes. It's so empowering to convict the person of first degree murder.<br /><br />You keep insisting that the laws are a problem, but you keep refusing to suggest an alternative or improved fix for our concerns.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-87700525432412140482014-05-02T15:55:08.260+02:002014-05-02T15:55:08.260+02:00If I come back with a bunch of "gotcha quotes...If I come back with a bunch of "gotcha quotes", you'll just say I'm being tedious. There's a ton of them out there. And neither of them EVER speak to what the law doesn't protect. I don't think you have either. Again, you make it seem like those who got convicted were random and had nothing to do with the way the law is written and the facts of the case.<br /><br />Aside from that, you admit that they "exaggerate" but you are calling me "extremely dishonest" for pointing it out. That's a hoot.TShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04667036856347626234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-11927019364953394512014-05-02T15:49:08.814+02:002014-05-02T15:49:08.814+02:00No, because they're honest about what it prote...No, because they're honest about what it protects and doesn't protect. They are not saying you can get away with murder just by saying you felt threatened the way you guys are.TShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04667036856347626234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-60796313692277841502014-05-02T13:52:48.686+02:002014-05-02T13:52:48.686+02:00TS, I don't think Laci or japete think every s...TS, I don't think Laci or japete think every single idiot who shoots someone and cries castle doctrine gets away with murder. For you to take their perhaps exaggerated quotes out of context and claim that's what they believe is extremely dishonest of you.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-1363583195952037182014-05-02T13:49:05.680+02:002014-05-02T13:49:05.680+02:00No, because there are about 100 pro-gun blogs for ...No, because there are about 100 pro-gun blogs for every one of ours. On every one of them they're waving the flag of castle-doctrine-type self-defense. Doesn't that concern you?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-88669982836069166102014-05-02T13:46:57.550+02:002014-05-02T13:46:57.550+02:00"We do not want to empower the shoot first ty..."We do not want to empower the shoot first types--we want them to get their just deserts."<br /><br />But, in many cases that's exactly what happens, you empower them.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-84987216906724808702014-05-01T17:11:29.962+02:002014-05-01T17:11:29.962+02:00I’m not into the blame thing the way you are. I w...I’m not into the blame thing the way you are. I want to qualify that I said <b>IF</b> these guys committed murder because they heard from the media that they could get away with it because of misrepresentation of what the law protects, then that would be blood on your hands. I haven’t heard any evidence to that effect, but this possibility doesn’t concern you at all?TShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04667036856347626234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-66647260736680178092014-05-01T17:07:25.451+02:002014-05-01T17:07:25.451+02:00MikeB: “No one says that the castle doctrine or SY...MikeB: “No one says that the castle doctrine or SYG defense works in every case of illicit shootings”<br /><br />Actually, Mike, there are people on your side that do say just that. Laci, for one, always calls it a “get away with murder law”. He doesn’t qualify it by saying *some* murder, and you never hear him speak to what it doesn’t protect. He presents it as making murder legal. And he’s a lawyer. Japete also does the same. She explicitly and repeatedly says “all you have to do is say you felt threatened” and you’ll get away with it. Byron Smith used that as a defense, and look what happened to him.<br /><br />But, here, let’s test what I just said. Let’s put this question to Laci: what about the castle doctrine law allowed Byron Smith to be found guilty? What details of the case meant he was not protected? He’s a lawyer, he should be able to answer this, but you won’t see him do that, or anyone who disparages these law ever talk about what it <b>doesn’t</b> protect. You can answer too, Mike. Why was he not protected? When you talk about how some people don’t get away with murder, you make it sound like it is random. It’s not.<br /><br />We prove you wrong, and then you fall back on saying it’s still our fault because of “shoot first mentality” (which is actually you guys spreading this mentality). But still, we see that the law does not protect setting traps, baiting burglars, and finishing people off- but you want to see it repealed anyway because you say these people *thought* it was protected. You’re unbelievable sometimes. That’s like saying we should make consensual sex between adults a crime because a rapist used the excuse “I heard her say ‘yes’”.<br />TShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04667036856347626234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-2715435984840274772014-05-01T15:20:27.216+02:002014-05-01T15:20:27.216+02:00Mikeb, what's obvious to you isn't necessa...Mikeb, what's obvious to you isn't necessarily true. But in this case, your side needs to take responsibility for making hyperbolic statements and twisting words that create the impression that any shooting will be given a pass as long as the shooter claims self-defense.Greg Camphttp://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-83744484321332036072014-05-01T13:48:13.482+02:002014-05-01T13:48:13.482+02:00That is disingenuous on so many levels, Mike.
&q...That is disingenuous on so many levels, Mike.<br /><br /><br />"No one says that the castle doctrine or SYG defense works in every case of illicit shootings, but it has worked in some."<br /><br />And regular self defense hasn't worked that way in some cases?<br /><br /><br />"On the other hand, the age-old rules of legitimate self-defense have always worked to protect truly legitimate gun owners who act in righteous self defense."<br /><br />Seriously? Always worked? Nobody ever got away with something? Nobody who truly was justified was ever wrongfully convicted? Such claims are ludicrous, and easily disproved by digging up some of the cases where people were convicted solely because they didn't "retreat" before defending themself.<br /><br />Legitimate defenders are better protected by these laws, and these laws were written in such a way as to try not to allow people to get away with murder. If you have suggestions to improve the laws, bring them. Thus far, I've heard no suggestions--nothing but complaining and misrepresentations.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-83892133597201323952014-05-01T09:00:58.918+02:002014-05-01T09:00:58.918+02:00Yeah, you phonies are trying to pull the old switc...Yeah, you phonies are trying to pull the old switcheroo - blame the other side for pointing out the problems with the policy you support. It's total bullshit.<br /><br />No one says that the castle doctrine or SYG defense works in every case of illicit shootings, but it has worked in some. On the other hand, the age-old rules of legitimate self-defense have always worked to protect truly legitimate gun owners who act in righteous self defense. It was gun-rights folks who pushed and pushed for more leeway. The result was not that legitimate shooters have been better protected, but that some have gotten away with murder and manslaughter. Our decrying this situation does not make us responsible for it. It's your baby.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-79884015503524172572014-05-01T08:49:36.320+02:002014-05-01T08:49:36.320+02:00TS, for every one of those you mentioned, guys who...TS, for every one of those you mentioned, guys who DIDN'T get away with it, there is at least one in which an obvious injustice has taken place. I post them when I see them. The Alzheimer's sufferer comes to mind, but there have been a number of them in recent months.<br /><br />As far as blaming gun control folks for the abuses that happen, that's just ridiculous. Say it if you want, but it makes you sound like a petty baby, no it's your fault, no it's yours.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09806175370305006933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-16276101236605029052014-05-01T07:24:38.347+02:002014-05-01T07:24:38.347+02:00* Should have said "Seriously POed"
Gue...* Should have said "Seriously POed"<br /><br />Guess I forgot which person's skreed I was responding to.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-63139895024344110482014-05-01T01:46:38.391+02:002014-05-01T01:46:38.391+02:00See what I said below, Mike. The people who “get ...See what I said below, Mike. The people who “get away with” defending themselves are because the case fits the guideline for lawful self-defense. You can’t just murder people and be protected by these laws, and time and time again cases like this one, and the Byron Smith case, the Michael Dunn case, the popcorn one, etc. show that you are dead wrong. But you guys bring up self-defense laws as soon as these shooting happen as if it’s covered by the law. If these guys had the idea that they could get away with it- they didn’t get it from me, or Simon, or Greg, or Massad Ayoob, or Andrew Branca (people who know what they are talking about). They got it from people like you, Japete, Laci, Jadegold, Al Sharpton, Lawrence O’Donnell, etc.TShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04667036856347626234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-26318693890774880332014-05-01T01:14:43.945+02:002014-05-01T01:14:43.945+02:00What the NRA has done, over and over and over, is ...What the NRA has done, over and over and over, is tell people that you are the only one who can help yourself, that a cop is 10 minutes away, that you need to shoot first and ask questions later. That IS the castle doctrine. And it is restated over and over, and kids are getting killed by cowardly loser NRA thugs.POed Former-Libhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04515300327544898083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-70183194706448048882014-04-30T21:10:10.268+02:002014-04-30T21:10:10.268+02:00Mikeb, you've posted a couple of cases of peop...Mikeb, you've posted a couple of cases of people using excessive force and not getting away with it, and you've posted cases of home owners legitimately defending themselves.Greg Camphttp://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-14135184176464881922014-04-30T20:06:15.267+02:002014-04-30T20:06:15.267+02:00TS,
You bring up something that I've wondered...TS,<br /><br />You bring up something that I've wondered and worried about watching the description of SYG and Castle Doctrine laws in the media.<br /><br />When these laws were being pushed and passed, I remember that the emphasis of the laws proponents, including the emphasis in NRA publications, was that the goal was to remove the idea of a duty of retreat that was entering the common law in some states, and not to open up self defense to a bunch of new situations.<br /><br />Meanwhile, in carry courses here in Tennessee, where we had these laws for many years, you have to (or at least had to a few years ago when I took it) watch a state produced video with a couple of lawyers explaining the rules of self defense and explaining all the things you can do wrong (excessive use of force, starting a fight before claiming defense, etc.) and how these will land you in jail for manslaughter or murder. Even with these laws, the rules were the same--think about what you're doing, only use force if you have to, don't start a fight and then try to claim self defense, etc.<br /><br />However, now we have this loud debate and people calling these "get away with murder laws," and I wonder how much of this politically motivated spin is sinking into people's minds. How many people now think that these laws will let them get away with something that it will not, and thus break the law, kill somebody, and then discover that the media lied to them.<br /><br />I hope that the misrepresentation of these laws is not actually creating the mentality Mike keeps ascribing to us, creating a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-859960783608728672014-04-30T19:53:05.576+02:002014-04-30T19:53:05.576+02:00Mike,
As I said, the intent behind those of us su...Mike,<br /><br />As I said, the intent behind those of us supporting these laws is dealing with the issue of fleeing and needless prosecutions. We do not want to empower the shoot first types--we want them to get their just deserts.<br /><br />So again, I'm ready to hear suggestions on how to better deal with the issues we raise while not empowering the "trigger happy."Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-29588725498661577472014-04-30T18:53:04.963+02:002014-04-30T18:53:04.963+02:00"The NRA losers are DEFENDING the position of..."The NRA losers are DEFENDING the position of 'shoot first, kill the guy, and then get charged with murder'."<br /><br />WTF? Seriously, Anonymous? What are you trying to get across here?<br /><br />Are you suggesting we think the guy should have shot?<br /><br />How does our saying "Charge Him" not translate to "He shouldn't have shot the kid" in your mind?<br /><br />If anything is scaring me here it's your inability to reason logically and discuss this rationally.Simon J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6314891743204395487.post-49886967163190274412014-04-30T18:46:45.414+02:002014-04-30T18:46:45.414+02:00"This is not the 'castle doctrine'. T..."This is not the 'castle doctrine'. This is cold-blooded murder..."<br /><br />POed,<br /><br />Have you still not read what I wrote? I'm agreeing with you on this point!<br /><br />You seem to be taking issue with the last part of my first comment. Read it again. I'm saying that the kid was responsible for his own actions and shouldn't have been snooping around other people's garages, but I also said that this was not something worthy of death.<br /><br />The point was that yes, the kid shouldn't have been there, but that did not justify the murderous actions of the shooter in this case.<br /><br />Either you're not reading what I wrote completely or you are telling a bald faced lie when you claim that I'm justifying the actions of this murderer.Simon J.noreply@blogger.com