The ATF released trace data for the guns recovered during 2008 in New York, providing several interesting points.
On page 9 of the pdf report, there's a map showing the state of origin of the traced guns. Virginia heads up the list with 372 followed by New York itself with 345. The other big sources of weapons confiscated in New York were Pennsylvania, North and South Carolina and Georgia.
In page 11 of the report there's a very interesting statistic. By a vast majority, the guns traced in New York had three years or more from their original sale. The standard cut off for considering a gun trafficked, is either one year or two years, depending on who's defining it.
What do you think about the gun flow that takes place between states with easy gun laws and New York? By far, most of the guns examined came from outside.
What about that three-year-or-more idea? What do you make of that? Do you think it means that most crime guns are not the result of intentional trafficking but rather the slower moving but inexorable gun flow? How do you think those guns got into criminal hands? I can think of only two ways. They were either stolen or their owners turned criminal during that three year period. Can you think of any other way?
How is it possible for the ATF to release this data? Doesn't it violate the Tiahrt Amendments?
What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
I have posted a few times here about how casually guns were available in my Lower Manhattan neighborhood in the late 70's and 80's.
ReplyDeleteI was witness to shoot outs between drug gangs and actual man hunts by dealers across the roof tops on my neighborhood.
Over the course of 20 years living in the same place, I made a lot of friends with the guys who grew up there and in the projects over by the East River.
I have mentioned that if I went back to New York today, I probably could pick up a few guns in the course of a day from different sources. People who I had to deal with everyday as a matter of survival in my neighborhood...These guys new I was someone who could be counted on to be a nice guy and that creates a bond that is like currency for years...it's like, at first, no one is sure of anyone, but after a while, they decide you are a friend...a friend after a few years become family and if your family needs a gun????
I would get offered guns as a favor or told that if I ever needed one...just ask.
Of course I wondered where did these guns all come from? How could there be such an unregulated flow of arms into New York? I knew white punks who had apartments full of unlicensed weapons. I moved from New york in 2000, but I still have an apartmnent on the corner of East Fifth St. and Ave. B. So much has changed since 1985, but so much remains the same.
I mentioned all of this before and was called a liar or recieved insinuations that I was exagerrating.
Why is the fact there is a black market in guns so "mind boggling"? There is a corresponding black market for drugs. Has been for decades. Drugs are as available if not more available than guns. Hawaii has plenty of illegal guns that come from the mainland US. Jamaica does too and civilian ownership is illegal. If we already have plenty of proof that criminals don't obey the law, why do we think that more laws (which only the law abiding will follow) will somehow curtail the "gunflow"? Going back to drugs, we have made them more illegal for the last 50 years, yet there has only been an increase in the amount of drugs on the street and the number of users.
ReplyDelete"(1) Firearm traces are designed to assist law enforcement authorities in conducting investigations by tracking the sale and possession of specific firearms.Law enforcement agencies may request firearms traces for any reason, and those reasons are not necessarily reported to the Federal Government.Not all firearms used in crime are traced and not all firearms traced are used in crime.
ReplyDelete(2) Firearms selected for tracing are not chosen for purposes of determining which types, makes or models of firearms are used for illicit purposes.The firearms selected do not constitute a random sample and should not be considered representative of thelarger universe of all firearms used by criminals, or any subset of that universe.Firearms are normally traced to the first retail seller, and sources reported for firearms traced donot necessarily represent the sources or methods by which firearms in general are acquired foruse in crime."
These are all things the pro-2A crowd has been saying for a looooong time. Yet we are ridiculed by most when we do.
I wouldn't say you were a liar, but since New York has had some of the strictest gun control laws for 40+ years, you must be mistaken as gun control prevents all of this. [/sarcasm]
ReplyDeleteReputo, Who said that?
ReplyDelete"Why is the fact there is a black market in guns so "mind boggling"?"
No one said that Mike. I think what Reputo is getting at is that it's ridiculous for you to believe placing innumerable restrictions on the legal firearms market will substantially impact black market avaliability.
ReplyDeleteReducing avaliability with "gun control" is a pipe dream. It's true whether we're discussing guns, alcohol, or drugs.
Fighting it supply side DOES NOT work, and hell, with the drug trade we're talking about products that are 100% illegal, so there's no "flow" from the legal to illicit market. Even with no legal market in place trying to stop the flow of drugs by attacking the supply is futile, much as it is with guns.
Mike W., That's another bad comparison, the guns to drugs one. What comes to mind is that the government doesn't really want to eliminate drugs. They want to fight a sham "war on drugs" and spend lots of money doing it all the while allowing a many-billion-dollar business flourish.
ReplyDeleteGuns on the other hand could be severely diminished with common sense gun laws and enforcement. The fact that the producers of drugs are already criminals while gun manufacturers are proper busines men, would make controlling the product possible, assuming the government really wanted to.
Microdot wrote:
ReplyDelete"Of course I wondered where did these guns all come from? How could there be such an unregulated flow of arms into New York? I knew white punks who had apartments full of unlicensed weapons."
You wrote:
"I can think of only two ways. They were either stolen or their owners turned criminal during that three year period. Can you think of any other way?"
Aren't these questions indicative of a concept you find "mind boggling"? You can only think of two ways, you need to go back and read your blog then - stealing, owner turns criminal, straw purchase, rogue dealer, personal manufacture, given by friend/family, black market import from elsewhere.
Wouldn't making drugs legal turn the manufacturers of drugs into "legitimate" businessmen? On the flip side, during the AWB, wasn't someone who made high capacity magazines a criminal?
Drugs and guns are an excellent comparison. Except that using drugs isn't part of the Bill of Rights. So if this is what you mean by a bad comparison, then I agree with you. However, I don't think this is what you mean.
The fact that the producers of drugs are already criminals while gun manufacturers are proper busines men, would make controlling the product possible, assuming the government really wanted to.
ReplyDeleteThe comparison to the drug trade is 100% valid Mike. Do you know what a black market is?