Allow me to repeat my assertion in a different way. Most of you guys have friends or relatives who you know are not fit to own guns. You do nothing about it for several reasons, you feel it's none of your business, or you feel it's their right to own guns in spite of whatever disqualifying problems they may have. Maybe you even have mixed feelings about it but inertia takes over, you do nothing.What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
That's where you're complicit.
To clarify for you contentious guys who like to purposely miss my point, but disqualifying problems I mean all those things I itemized on my post The Famous 10% (no link provided because you know where to find it if you want and I'd hate to prove Sean the mindreader right that all I'm looking for is traffic).
I'll change that "most of you guys" to all of you guys. Every one of you knows some gun owner who drinks too much for his own good, or who flies off the handle showing signs of anger problems. You justify not intervening because maybe, let's hope, it never results in a bad scene. How about the prescription medication guys, the ones who've had back problems or depression and got hooked on the medicine. And let's not forget the accident prone.
Of course some of you go much further, you have friends or relatives with violent criminal pasts who seem to have straightened out. What are you going to do, play cop and criticize their desire to exercise a natural human right like everybody else. Of course not. That's why you're all complicit in this.
Monday, December 20, 2010
The Complicity of Gun Owners
Over on Snowflakes in Hell I've been met with the usual resistance. Here's my latest comment on that thread.
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I know a few people who should not own guns. What have I personally done about it?
ReplyDeleteFirst I have tried to buy the guns they own, from them. You must remember, sometimes these people set a price that is out of my budget, or outright refuse to sell me a gun they own. It is not like I can steal their guns from them.
Second, I have spoken to their family members, and point out just how big of an idiot they are with the guns they own. Sadly idiocy is not a crime. But it is not like I can put a gun to their family member's head and say, "hey take their guns away."
Third, I cannot force someone to follow safety rules. I cannot force them to be smart with a gun.
All I can do, is what I can do. Like so many things, this is a two way dance. I am as safe with a gun as one can be. So for me to own another gun is just another gun that will sit in a safe. My point is, at what point does complicity begin, and what point does common sense end?
In your case, it's already begun.
ReplyDeleteYou're complicit since you know there's a problem, but refuse to go the whole way. Idiocy may not be a crime, but when someone is a potential threat to others--then there is a societal interest in preventing that harm.
Common sense kicks in when you realise that gun control isn't working because it is too weak.
Maybe you don't like "gun control" since it infringes on "gun rights"
When people read the Second Amendment, they fixate too much on the Second half about the "right to keep and bear arms", but it also talks about "the security of the free state". Both aspects are important to understanding the Amendment.
To have the right to keep and bear arms being contrary to the security of the free state makes a mockery of the Second Amendment since it needs to be understood as a whole.
When you come to that realisation, you have common sense.
I know of no one in your infamous, made-up 10%, and I challenge you again to PROVE (with actual demonstrable facts) that it even exists. I've read your original post on the subject; all you do is lump together a bunch of conjectures completely devoid of supporting facts and then try to attack us with it. If 10% of us are "bad," and there's 80 million of us in the US, show me anything even close to 8 million incidents, and maybe we can talk. You can't, because the vast majority of gun crimes (even the ones you report on this site) are committed by people who are already prohibited owners/purchasers, and hence not even "one of us" to begin with. Telling a lie frequently and forcefully does not make it a fact, Mike.
ReplyDeleteGood post, Mikeb.
ReplyDeleteAs I've sagely noted many times previously, when we hear of some tragedy where some guy shoots his family or decides to shoot up his office--the early news stories *always* have some reactions like "Joe was a real good fella--who would have thought he'd do this?" or "joe was always so friendly and nice, who knew?"
Invariably, later news stories will find relatives and friends admitting Joe drank too much or abused his medications or exhibited bizarre behavior and mood swings.
Case in point, NRA member Chistopher Speight who gunned down several family members and 4 children. The immediate news stories were that Speight was always polite and nice. But the later news stories showed many of Speight's peers knew that he was a raving loon who was building a bunker.
There is no reason to own guns. NEVER. EVER. PERIOD.
ReplyDeleteYou know somebody with guns, call the Police. Even if you need to embellish a little bit. In the end, it's about getting guns away from people.
Anon @ 12:17 will have blood on his hands unless he calls the Police.
What has DHS been saying these past few years? If you see something, say something. They haven't made that Patriot App for the iPhone for nothing.
I am sure the holier than thou Mike knows unsafe drivers, but doesn’t do anything stop them.
ReplyDeleteI am sure the holier than thou Mike knows people who drink to excess, but doesn’t do anything stop them.
I am sure the holier than thou Mike knows people who drink and drive, but doesn’t do anything stop them.
I am sure the holier than thou Mike knows people who smoke and kill people with their 2nd hand smoke, but doesn’t do anything stop them.
I am sure the holier than thou Mike knows people leave plastic bags and other tools of suffocation around the house, but doesn’t do anything stop them.
I am sure the holier than thou Mike knows people who let their kids cross the street alone, but doesn’t do anything stop them.
I am sure the holier than thou Mike knows people who leave household chemicals and RX prescriptions around the house, but doesn’t do anything stop them.
I am sure the holier than thou Mike is guilty of all of those things himself even though they all kill more kids than people with firearms
Center for Disease Control
20 Leading Causes on Unintentional Injury/Deaths-2001 Ages 1-14
Motor Vehicle 46.2%
Drowning 17.4%
Fire 10.6%
Suffocation 5.5%
Pedestrian 3.2%
Falls 2.2%
Poisoning 1.8%
Natural/Environmental 1.6%
Firearms 1.6%
Struck by/or Against 1.5%
First, I have owned guns for over 25 years.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I have never committed a crime.
To banthenra, are you actually telling people to lie to law enforcement? You realise that is illegal. Even by typing it here you have committed a crime. Now that you are a criminal, do you still feel so superior as to tell law abiding citizens what to do.
The depth of the stupidity of your comment is very common with the pro-crime, anti-gun crowd. You would tell a lie about your gun owning neighbor, or use the "tell big brother" software for your phone, but then you might be friendly with him the next day? What a coward you are.
People like you should be marked somehow. That way, when I see you being attacked or raped, I wont waste my time helping you. I would risk the legal problems for someone who deserved it, but you don't qualify.
You people are pathetic, just hide away in your little world of fear.
Anon is wrong.
ReplyDeleteThe analogy of people eating or drinking too much doesn't work well.
If someone eats too much, the person they're hurting is themselves. That's it. There is little risk to me or anyone else should you decide to eat several pizzas a day.
Excess drinking? Well, frankly, I won't drive with anyone who drinks to excess. And I certainly will tell someone--especially a friend--if I think they've drunk too much or if I think they have a problem.
OTOH, gunloons won't tell their buddies that shouldn't have guns. And let's face it--you shouldn't own a gun if you have a substance abuse problem or anger issues or are mentally ill or are just a yahoo.
Anon @ 6:52
ReplyDeleteEmbellishment is not a lie.
What law do YOU think I broke?
And besides, if someone does decide to *lie* to Police when trying to protect ones community from gun violence, do you think the police would actually do anything to that person?
Do you think the Police want to deal with accusations of brutality towards someone who is trying to keep their community safe? The media would have a field day.
When dealing with gun violence, the ENDS always justifies the MEANS. Whether you like it or not.
Complicit?
ReplyDeleteYou mean complicit like how gun controllers are complicit in the deaths of people in the "Gun Free Zones" they advocate for?
How many gun controllers intervene in "Gun Free Zone" shootings? How many "No Guns Allowed" signs have you taken down? Have you ever provided security in a "Gun Free Zone" No?
Then you can't really complain when gun owners don't intervene on behalf of other people's safety.
Hey Mikey,
ReplyDeleteLet's say we know someone like you describe.
As a society, What should we do with them?
Should we lock them away?
Should we take away their cars?
Restrict their right to free speech?
Right to keep and bear arms only?
What do you think we should do to people like you describe?
I don’t know any, Mike. I will admit that my circle of gun friends is rather small, though. I do know one would be gun owner whom I talked down because I am only 99% confident that there wouldn’t be a problem. This is a person I am very close to, and no- I don’t think guns are for everybody.
ReplyDeleteHow many have you personally persuaded against gun ownership? Must be hundreds.
Colin said, "If 10% of us are "bad," and there's 80 million of us in the US, show me anything even close to 8 million incidents, and maybe we can talk."
ReplyDeleteHe preceded this amazing statement with the totally unbelievable idea that he knows not one single person who should not own a gun.
Colin, sometimes your contentious nature gets the better of you. You jump to conclusions that make no sense. In this case you try to twist my contention that 10% of you gun owners should not own guns into the suggestion that 10% of you will be caught committing crimes every year, your 8 million idea.
I didn't say that.
I stand behind my 10% theory, or hypothesis, as Joe Huffman called it. I do so based simply on common sense and honesty, both of which you have trouble with, I'm afraid.
Naturally, a man who insists he knows not one single unfit gun owner, not one who drinks too much or shows any other indication of trouble, wouldn't be able to acquiesce to my way of thinking.
Now you're the one jumping to conclusions, Mike. I never said anything about 8 million incidents A YEAR because I never specified a time frame. Besides, it's pretty rich to say that I jump to conclusions, when that's all that your 10% theory boils down to. Moreover, if you're not saying that 10% of us aren't going to commit a crime, then who the hell cares? You're basically admitting your goal is elimination of gun ownership, and not crime prevention, which makes your position pretty irrelevant. In any case, it appears that you and Guy are among the few people so far off in fantasy land that you just can't see this 10% as the nonsense it is.
ReplyDeleteI also find it pretty arrogant and presumptuous on your part that you can say that I have trouble with honesty, when you know nothing about me, my friends or my life. I will admit that I don't know many gun owners, but I do know that none of them falls into your 10% category. I also can't believe that you can say with a straight face that I lack common sense, as I'm reasonably confident that I bring a well-written, factually supported argument to our little discussions. On the other hand, you usually use anecdotes and a bunch of vague conjectures, I mean HYPOTHESES, so I'm sorry if you don't like it when I call you and your co-blogger on your BS.
"You people are pathetic, just hide away in your little world of fear." said the man known as "Anonymous." What a hoot.
ReplyDeleteWhat I love about BantheNRA is he makes me look so moderate. With guys like him around, I can honestly say I only push for "moderate" changes like total licensing and registration and background checks on every transfer.
MikeB: “What I love about BantheNRA is he makes me look so moderate. With guys like him around, I can honestly say I only push for "moderate" changes like total licensing and registration and background checks on every transfer.”
ReplyDeleteExcept for the fact that you’ve been trying to convince us that gun control extremists don’t exist- that you are all “moderate”. Well, here is someone who wants to ban every single gun. Maybe you should start arguing with him so you can convince us how “moderate” you are.
And if I'm overly contentious at times, it's only because I'm sick of being called a "gunloon/tard/tubby," racist, idiot, redneck, druggie/drunkard, proto-murderer and liar, as well as being accused of being socially awkward, sexually inadequate and lacking in common sense. From what I can tell, at least the gunnies restrict their name calling to specific individuals on this blog, whereas you and Jade just insult all 80 million of us (or is it only the "bad" 8 million?).
ReplyDeleteI think I'll join this "no facts, all accusations" party: all you gun KKKontrollers are complicit in the murders of every innocent person executed in one of your ironically named "Gun Free Zones." Their blood is entirely on your hands.
Colin: Your first of many mistakes is to believe gunowners are a monolithic body that believe exactly as you believe.
ReplyDeleteThey aren't.
Many--indeed, most gunowners, don't believe they need assault weapons or that they need no regulation or oversight. Most gunowners don't believe they need to carry around an arsenal because they're under 24/7 constant threat of attack.
OTOH, gunloons like you do. You support various racist loons because of your unquestioning lockstep support of the NRA. Go to a gunshow sometime; tell me the patrons there aren't overwhelmingly white, fat, and prone to conspiracy theories and social retardation.
No, Guy KKKabot, the gun owners of this great Nation, while they may not be a totally monolithic block, are beginning to wake up and realize that you gun KKKontrollers and Brady Bunch panty wetters have been feeding them a line of BS for decades. They understand that although today you claim to only be after my "military style assault rifle" because it can penetrate a police officer's vest at 100 yards and looks evil, once you get it outlawed you're coming for grandpap's old bolt action Remington 700 hunting rifle because it too can penetrate a police officer's vest at 100 yards and is functionally identical to a military sniper rifle.
ReplyDeleteBrady Bunch membership and funding numbers, recent election results and court decisions, and even the polls that you so love to quote (http://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2010/11/death-of-gun-control.html) show that your side is outnumbered and beginning its (hopefully short) slide to oblivion.
Enjoy your name-calling while you can, because it's all you have left. BTW, it also serves as all the proof anyone with half a brain needs to see the intellectual paucity of your arguments. You practically do my job for me.
Well, Colin, in deference to your admiration of the KKK--I think I'll do a post about the NRA and its ties to white supremacists.
ReplyDeleteColin: ***I'm sick of being called a "gunloon/tard/tubby," racist, idiot, redneck, druggie/drunkard, proto-murderer and liar, as well as being accused of being socially awkward, sexually inadequate and lacking in common sense***
ReplyDeleteWaaa....guntard want his bottle? It's only common sense for you to go cryin' to Mama and have her kiss you to make it better.
You do that. I'm sure it will be the paragon of factual argument, polished prose and reasonable discourse that we've all come to expect from your irrelevant diatribes.
ReplyDeleteWhile you're tackling the racism issue, why don't you include a couple of paragraphs on how the modern-day gun KKKontrol movement began as a way to repress the newly freed slaves in the south. I guess it's really hard for you guys to go night riding when your intended victims are legally able to fight back. Putting myself in your shoes, I totally understand how you can advocate for government enforced victim disarmament, as it certainly reduces the occupational hazards of your favorite aKKKtivities.
ReplyDeleteTS said, "Except for the fact that you’ve been trying to convince us that gun control extremists don’t exist- that you are all “moderate”."
ReplyDeleteI don't think I've done that.
Mike, fair enough. But I'd still like to see you explain to BantheNRA why you disagree with his/her positions.
ReplyDeleteTo BantheNRA. Lying to police is a crime. Besides, maybe your neighbors might "embellish" back at you about the constant smells from your house. I'm no expert, but maybe you are running a meth lab? Or the endless drug purchases that go on at your house.
ReplyDeleteIts a dangerous and stupid thing to start in the name of "safety". While the cops are chasing ghosts at your neighbors house, they are not dealing with real problems.
Its a dirty thing to do to someone just because you don't like their form of recreation. I guess that means nothing to power hungry control freaks like you though, does it?
Anon @ 11:29
ReplyDeleteLeave it to a guntard that taking steps to reduce gun violence in our communities as not a *real problem*. You 2A extremeists won't be happy until our neighborhoods are soaked with guns.
How does one go about "soaking" a neighborhood with guns? If you're just going to mindlessly regurgitate the latest Brady Bunch talking points, at least try to get them right, Banboy. Maybe you meant "soaked in blood?"
ReplyDeleteI don't think BantheNRA is mindlessly regurgitating anything. I told you before one reason I love him is because he makes me seem so middle-of-the-road.
ReplyDeleteHe's certainly not repeating Brady policy which is even less onerous than what I'd like to see.
Colin the guntard:
ReplyDeleteDon't you know how to use a dictionary? In this case *soaked* is an intransitive verb, meaning *to immerse until thoroughly saturated*.
Do you have at least a GED?
The term *guntard* fits you quite well.
Banboy, I don't think anyone reading your inane ramblings and comparing them to my comments would have any difficulty figuring out who the educated one is.
ReplyDelete