Who is the largest weapons supplier in the world? The US government. Why do we have a second amendment? To protect our third amendment rights. Think about it. And just as the founders did not want a central bank, they did not want a standing army. Yet what else would you call today's Law Enforcement and its military weapons, vehicles and technology? We should ask Iraq vet Jose Guerena what he thinks, but we can't the Arizona standing army killed him with a fusillade of 70 bullets in 7 seconds. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html
Wow, you are the only person I know of, anonymous, who is proud to be a nutcase!
But, you are too ignorant to understand how insane your comment was! And that's what I was saying.
It was too bizarre for words!
So, it's funny hearing you call me a nutcase!
You haven't answered Dog Gone's challenge. But, Iknow full well that you are too stupid and ignorant--a quite possibly non compos mentis (or in your case that may be "compost mentis"), to be able answer that challenge!
Do I have this right? Understanding that the USG is the world's largest weapons dealer makes me insane. Understanding that the colonists were not enamored by British troops coming into their homes, raping their daughters, taking their food, slaughtering their cattle, stealing their horses had no bearing on the second amendment. Understanding that when the 'peace officers' became Law Enforsement, became militarized, they are nothing more than an army of brutal knights errant, out looking for trouble until they find it. Again, it is a shame we can't ask Jose Guerena about that. It's a shame you don't want people to be able to defend themselves. You nuts would rather see a woman raped than to be able to be a victor and not a victim.
If I was given a challenge I wouldn't know about it since I'm not interested in her condescending nonsense and read nothing she writes. In other words, keep it to yourself.
Non violent protests exercising freedom of assembly don't require the protection or exercise of what this idiot construes to be his second amendment rights.
The protests are non violent. Civil disobedience requires that the protesters do not fight back.
Armed rebellion against government is contrary to the second amendment,and the first amendment. This man and his little private pseudo militia is probably not legal to the extent that they try to usurp the role of the real border patrol, because they have no authority to act in any legal capacity towards an illegal immigrant, or any other person acting illegally.
This is a clear case of vigilanteism, with people taking the law into their own hands, which is itself illgal.
What a bunch of ill-educated dorks playing dress up with guns because it gives them a cheap thrill.
Anonymous, I don't think there is a "standing army" today. Nor do I think there's any validity to the 2A protecting the other Amendments, whether you're talking about the 1st which is usually the case or the 3rd, like you just did.
I agree with Laci that's pretty bizarre stuff, but I see where you're coming from. Yours is a combination of self-aggrandizing braggadocio and grandiose victimism.
Pooch said, "I don't think there is a "standing army" today. Nor do I think there's any validity to the 2A protecting the other Amendments,..."
I'm guessing 'you don't think', that there has been a militarization of Law Enforcement either, which proves you don't think.
Clearly, Jose Guereno faced an invasion of his home by a standing army that riddled his body full of bullet holes with military-style weapons. There is no doubt that the Branch Davidians in Waco faced a standing army, as did the people in New Orleans during and after Katrina. There is no doubt that many of the OWS protesters see a standing army in front of them. I'm curious, what would you call it when that standing army drops a bomb on a house in Philadelphia? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/11/national/main6472296.shtml And I'm insane? Give me an effing break! It is total lack of understanding and lack of reading what the founders said and believed in regard to the 2A that would cause anyone to say there is no correlation between that amendment and several others. And then today, we read this http://www.click2houston.com/news/29619788/detail.html
Anonymous proves he's out of touch with reality when he says: Pooch said, "I don't think there is a "standing army" today. Nor do I think there's any validity to the 2A protecting the other Amendments,..."
No, that was MikeB who said that.
I'm not sure whether your problem is that you don't understand English, or you are insane.
It's has more to do with what you are saying and that it has no bearing on reality.
Definition: A standing army is a professional permanent army. It is composed of full-time career soldiers and is not disbanded during times of peace.
Law enforcement broadly refers to any system by which some members of society act in an organized manner to promote adherence to the law by discovering and punishing persons who violate the rules and norms governing that society.
For the most part law enforcement is considered paramilitary, that is a force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military, but which is not considered part of a state's formal armed forces.
Since most law enforcement is local, it would probably come under either the category of militia, or the state's ability to enforce its laws.
Even with the "militarisation" of law enforcement in the USA, any LEO would be considered paramilitary than military.
But there's are a couple of problems with US law enforcement: 1) the military is not allowed to enforce US laws 2) The criminals are well armed.
You aren't seriously expecting US cops to rush in like 19th Century Bobbies with truncheons against miltiarily armed criminals and crazies: are you?
The US may be the largest exporter of arms, but that wouldn't be the government since there is no nationalised arms manufacturer. The Government licences arms sales, but does not directly sell arms.
You will find for all these weapons and weapons systyems that are sold, they are made by private industry, not the government.
Again Private industry is selling the arms, not the government.
If you aren't insane, then you are incredibly ignorant.
But, it is fun hearing you demonstrate your lack of understanding and knowledge.
My bad, I misattibuted. Pooch said, "A standing army is a professional permanent army. It is composed of full-time career soldiers.." Clearly this is wrong since the army is made up of enlistees, many of whom only serve for a short time and are not career soldiers. Your argument is based on euphemisms and semantics. It is also quite obvious by the posts here that you favor the local standing armies to enforce your puritanism. OMG! people are having fun with their vices, we must criminalize their behavior for victimless crimes. That is either idiotic or insane. No, it actually is police state mentality enforced by the local standing army.
Standing armies are full time and professional even if there is an enlistee serving for a short term. That is irrelevant to the issue.
The real key to standing army is that it is professional, that is the person who serves does so full time for the period of enlistment. They are supposed to serve full time and not work other jobs in a proper professional military.
Law enforcement is paramilitary by nature and definition. Which you didn't understand, APU.
No euphemism or technicalities--those are the proper definitions of the terms.
Your failure to grasp those definitions shows that you are not working in the same reality.
But, you are definitely demonstrating that you are an anarchist since I am not sure who you would have enforce the laws.
Likewise, the Freedoms Phoenix, USD Border Guards, or whatever the fuck the organisation is looks like an army to me, yet it is outside of civilian control.
Who controls them?
That is far worse than your imagined police state, anonymous.
Here's some of your political correctness, euphemistic bullshit. from garbage man ( an honest blue collar job) to sanitation engineer to environmental technician. Total nonsense.
Consider the word 'immunity', something the Iraqis will not give to US soldiers after this year. But, in Haditha, Iraq soldiers killed 24 unarmed innocent people includin an 80 year-old, one-legged wheelchair bound man at such close range that his family saw his entrails ooze out of his body in front of children and women. They then proceeded to butcher eveyone else in the house including babies shot a point blank range, the children the same, the women the same and the man's sons the same. Imunity for turning a peaceful residence into an abattoir. Immunity, exactly like the local standing army that slaughtered Jose Guereno, exactly like the local standing army did to the 80 some dead from their created inferno in Waco, just lie the local standing army did by dropping a bomb in a neighborhood in Philadelphia. Immunity. And do you puritan nuts care? Hell no. They are Law enforcement. Law enforcement, my ass, they are murderers plain and simple. We have abandoned the rule of law. If there were 'equality' under the rule of law under the guise of protecting children, using Waco as the example, every Catholic church in the country should have been burned down. Unfortunately, you puritan idiots can't see what is right in front of you.
Here's some of your political correctness, euphemistic bullshit. from garbage man ( an honest blue collar job) to sanitation engineer to environmental technician. Total nonsense.
Nobody mentioned anything of that. So, I am not sure of your point.
As I said, I used textbook definitions of the terms.
But, in Haditha, Iraq soldiers killed 24 unarmed innocent people
What does that have to do with the issue of standing armies enforcing laws in the US?
His name is Jose Guerena, who was an alleged marijuana trafficker armed with an AR-15 rifle at the time of the incident--the civilian version of the M-16. Um,the cops see a gun and he's not smart enough to drop it. His family filed a Civil Suit in this matter.
Waco--another incident where law enforcement encountered heavily armed people who shot at them.
You seriously going to call them a church and allow them to hide their illegal activities behind "religion"--give me a break!
The Philadelphia Bombing: A police helicopter then dropped a four-pound bomb made of C-4 plastic explosive and Tovex, a dynamite substitute, onto the roof of the house. The resulting explosion caused incendiary materials listed in the police indictment, and stored by MOVE in the house, to catch fire. A civil suit in US federal court, a jury ordered the City of Philadelphia to pay $1.5 million to a survivor and relatives of two people killed in the incident.
Heavily armed suspects.
As I said, you aren't seriously expecting US cops to rush in like 19th Century Bobbies with truncheons against militarily armed criminals and crazies: are you?
Who do you propose deals with heavily armed criminals?
So far, Anonymous, I see you ranting,but not offering any solutions to this.
And using situations where armed people resist arrest isn't going to make you any points.
It is sad you can't figure out who the real criminals are. You may want to become a union rep for the killers. I'm sure you think Kathryn Johnston of Atlanta was a vicious criminal also. She's dead also.
Waco was a crazy cult rejected by the real Davidians, led by a sick, twisted pervert. They were a dangerous and treasonous bunch of armed idiots who shot Treasury agents who were lawfully serving a search warrant for unlawful gun traffic. They had a history of bizare, dangerous, violent behavior towards each other, and towards others.
"After the death of Lois and probate of Lois' estate in January 1987, Howell [aka David Koresh]attempted to gain control of the Mt Carmel center by force. George Roden had dug up the casket of one Anna Hughes from the Davidian cemetery and had challenged Howell to a resurrection contest to prove who was the rightful heir to the leadership. Howell instead went to the police and claimed Roden was guilty of corpse abuse. By October 31, 1987 the county prosecutors had refused to file charges without proof and so on November 3, 1987 Howell and seven armed companions attempted to access the Mt. Carmel chapel with the goal of photographing the body in the casket. George Roden was advised of the interlopers and grabbed an Uzi in response. The sheriff's department responded about 20 minutes into the gunfight."
Yeah, this is nothing like the modern Roman Catholic church, whatever problems it might have:
"In mid-1989, a Davidian named Wayman Dale Adair visited George Roden to discuss Adair's vision of being God's chosen messiah. Roden killed Adair with an axe. Roden was found guilty under an insanity defense and was committed to a mental hospital. Shortly after Roden's commitment, Howell [akaKoresh]raised money to pay off all the back taxes on Mt. Carmel owed by Roden and took legal control of the property.[7]"
"On August 5, 1989, Koresh (at that point still legally named Vernon Howell) released the "new light" audiotape in which Koresh stated he had been told by God to procreate with the women in the group to establish a "House of David" of his "Special People." This involved married couples in the group dissolving their marriages and agreeing that only David Koresh could have sexual relations with the wives.[7]"
Waco went up in smoke only because they were DANGEROUS wacko nut jobs with no legitimate claim tobeing a religious group.
And then there was this: "Weapons
In addition to allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct, Koresh and his followers were accused of stockpiling illegal weapons. Authorities investigated these charges and obtained a warrant to search Koresh's compound. Former Davidian Marc Breault claimed that Koresh had "...M16 lower receiver parts"[7] (combining certain M16 components with a modified AR-15 lower receiver possibly constitutes the manufacture of a firearm that would be classified as a machine gun;[10] the Hughes amendment, attached to the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, effectively outlawed civilian ownership of any machine guns manufactured after the date of enactment[11])." and "According to the Affidavit presented by ATF investigator David Aguilera to US Magistrate Dennis G. Green on February 25, 1993, the Branch Davidian gun business (the "Mag Bag", Route 7, Box 555-B, Waco, Texas, 76705, located on Farm Road number 2491), had purchased many legal guns and gun parts from various legal vendors (such as forty-five semi-automatic AR15 lower receivers from Olympic Arms). Deliveries by UPS for the "Mag Bag" were accepted and paid for at Mount Carmel Center by Woodrow Kendrick, Paul Fatta, David Koresh or Steve Schneider. These purchases were traced by Aguilera through the normal channels used to track legal firearms purchases from legal vendors. None of the weapons and firearms were illegally obtained nor illegally owned by the "Mag Bag"; however, Aguilera affirmed to the judge that in his experience, in the past other purchasers of such legal gun parts had modified them to make illegal firearms. The search warrant was justified not on the basis there was proof that the Davidians had purchased anything illegal, but on the basis that they could be modifying legal arms to illegal arms, and that automatic weapon fire had been reported on the compound.[13] When the reports of automatic fire were first received, Steve Schneider and David Koresh showed the county sheriff department a "Hellfire" device, a quick-firing trigger sold with an ATF letter that the device was not a machinegun."
Not a lot of problems with the RC and weapons charges like this.
"On February 27, 1993, the Waco Tribune-Herald began the “Sinful Messiah” series of articles. It began, "If you are a Branch Davidian, Christ lives on a threadbare piece of land 10 miles east of here called Mount Carmel. He has dimples, claims a ninth-grade education, married his legal wife when she was 14, enjoys a beer now and then, plays a mean guitar, reportedly packs a 9mm Glock and keeps an arsenal of military assault rifles, and willingly admits that he is a sinner without equal." The article alleged that Koresh had physically abused children in the compound and had taken multiple underage brides amounting to statutory rape. Koresh was also said to advocate polygamy for himself and declared himself married to several female residents of the small community. According to the paper, Koresh declared he was entitled to at least 140 wives, that he was entitled to claim any of the females in the group as his, that he had fathered at least a dozen children through the harem and that some of these mothers became brides as young as 12 or 13 years old.[14]"
Anoninny, you are really slack and loose in your ideas, failing in points of important facts.
Waco was appropriate, if badly carried out.
The actual military in Iraq had misconduct, horrible misconduct, but only immunity from Iraqi prosecution, which is something of a shambles and known tobe more than a bit corrupt on occasion. That is not to say that there is not an appropriate U.S. military justice which does try to hold people in our armed forces accountable.
By Jon R. Anderson - Staff writer Posted : Monday Oct 4, 2010 12:15:15 EDT
JOINT BASE LEWIS-McCHORD, Wash. — The alleged ringleader of a self-styled ‘hit squad’ in a rogue platoon of hash-smoking infantrymen in Afghanistan may soon be facing additional murder charges for similar crimes while stationed in Iraq."
and then we have this about Jose Guerena
"Documents released yesterday by the Pima County Sheriff's Department show that the controversial shooting of an Iraq War vet was the result of a complex drug investigation into the man and his brother.
Jose Guerena, a 26-year-old father of two and veteran of the war, died on May 5, in his home near Tucson when the PCSD's SWAT team stormed his house and shot at him over 60 times.
The drug investigation netted a whopping one bag of marijuana, which was found in a different home also targeted in the investigation.
At the time of the raid, the Arizona Daily Star reports Guerena was holding an assault rifle. SWAT members thought he'd fired at them, but it was learned after authorities unloaded more than 60 rounds into Guerena that the safety on his gun was on and he hadn't fired a shot."
Now I understand that there is some controversy over whether or not the authorities properly identified themselves..... but if you are NOT dealing something illegal, do you really worry about large scale home invasions such that you need to be holding an assault rifle? I think that there was quite possibly some reasonable basis for this action, whether it resulted in them finding what they expected or not; itdoesn't look as if these were the only individuals in this drug organization, so if the drugs were kept somewhere else, it is not unreasonable.
Law enforcement is not perfect; our courts are not perfect, but we still live under the rule of law. The 'victims' you citeddon't appear to live under those laws.
Law enforcement is not the military, no matter how often you repeat it.
And you don't answer my challenging question because you DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER, or even how to find and understand them.
It doesn't matter how you try to spin it, you are bone ignorant, and what you think you know is factually inaccurate on a massive scale.
Waco went up in smoke only because they were DANGEROUS wacko nut jobs with no legitimate claim to being a religious group.
At least be honest....Waco went up in smoke when and while the government drove an armored vehicle through a wall.....
Or if they bring out armored cars and start running over OWSr's, it is ok for me to start the conversation.... OWSr's were killed because they were DANGEROUS wacko nut jobs with no legitimate claim to being a political group..
"Or if they bring out armored cars and start running over OWSr's, it is ok for me to start the conversation.... OWSr's were killed because they were DANGEROUS wacko nut jobs with no legitimate claim to being a political group.. "
Except that OWS isn't a cult, doesn't involve statutory rape, or illegal guns, or any of the other many reasons that the Waco Wacko Branch Davidians got into trouble with the government.
But if OWS DOES ever become like the Branch Davidians, I have no problem whatsoever with the government intervening as necessary, including in ways similar to the Waco action.
Except that OWS isn't a cult, doesn't involve statutory rape, or illegal guns, or any of the other many reasons that the Waco Wacko Branch Davidians got into trouble with the government.
There were at least six significant problems with its credibility as evidence that the Branch Davidians were operating a methamphetamine lab prior to ATF's raid. First, the allegations were very stale by legal standards. ATF received the information more than 5 years after the methamphetamine lab equipment was found and the Sheriff's Department visited the premises to investigate the claim. Second, it is undisputed that Koresh found the methamphetamine lab equipment and Koresh himself called the Sheriff to pick up the equipment. Third, the person rumored to have been involved in drugs was an occupant of the premises prior to Koresh taking over, and subsequently was sent to prison. Fourth, the former leader, Mr. Roden, not Koresh, was suspected of having been involved in illegal drugs. Fifth, the alleged statement by Koresh about drugs could not be verified independently. Sixth, the building Mr. Breault implies housed the methamphetamine materials burned down in 1990, 3 years before the raid.
So when dot.gov starts using flimsy excuses to treat your precious protestors as speed bumps please do not come crying to me....
The Branch Davidians ran afoul of the government for a number of reasons, but the primary one was weapons violations.
The whole conflict began over their illegally resisting the serving of a perfectly legal and well justified search warrant in a violent manner.
I haven't seen any widespread sexual abuse in the OWS, and many of the reported instances appear to be right wing smear tactics that don't hold up to a close scrutiny.
But more than that, there is NO evidence that sexual abuse or violence has been approved as an integral part of the OWS - quite the opposite. They are making substantial efforts to assure that everyone is safe from any kind of predatory behavior or violence - a significant difference frmo Koresh and his lunatics. Nor have there been any attempts to violently resist a search warrant, or any weapons violations. They emphatically and repeatedly call for peaceful protest and civil disobedience, not armed resistance, not ever. That is a right wing nut idea, not mainstream.
You lose on this one, you are trying to conflate unlike things. Oh, and lets point out as well that there are far far far more people peacefully participating in the OWS, as an increasingly mainstream movement than ever at any time were part of the Branch Davidians. Taken as a whole, the number of problems with the OWS in terms of any kind of crime appear to be statistically FAR lower than the general population.
Kind of like the results of the exhorbitantly expensive and useless drug testing the poor in Florida turned up that the poor use drugs less than the rich, or the mainstream.
When you begin with false information, the rest of your assertions don't do well.
Congressman Lewis is on the record as having stated he was not silenced, he was asked to speak at a different time, and insists he was cheered and otherwise warmly welcomed by the protesters.
That has a lot of reasons as basis-none of which are the racism claimed on the right. They include advance notice so that his speaking could reach an even larger audience, for starters.
As to what is and is not a cult:
Cult
noun 1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. 3. the object of such devotion. 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. 5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
D.G using your definition of cult covers every single religious group in existence. It could also be expanded to include any political party if you call their support of their political beliefs to be veneration.
Heck it could be used to describe both the progun and anti gun gorups as well.
Jim, are you going to seriously suggest that the Branch Davidians were in anyway a mainstream religion? Which one?
They claimed to be part of the Seventh Day Adventists, which is nonsense given what the Adventists believe in relation to what was preached by David "Korresh".
One cannot cloak illegal activity under the guise of religion. Employment Division, Department of Human Resources of Oregon v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990) states that a law that applies to everyone who might engage in that act, for whatever reason— is a "neutral law of general applicability," (that is applies to all people) in the Court's phrasing. The First Amendment's protection of the "free exercise" of religion does not allow a person to use a religious motivation as a reason not to obey such generally applicable laws. "To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself." Thus, the Court had held that religious beliefs did not excuse people from complying with laws forbidding polygamy, child labor laws, Sunday closing laws, laws requiring citizens to register for Selective Service, and laws requiring the payment of Social Security taxes.
So, one is barred if one attempts to use any religion as a defence from obeying any generally applicable law.
The Supreme Court has sharply limited scrutiny of incidental burdens in the context of speech and religion. If it permitted a wide approach, it would be quite easy for citizens to evade compulsory military service, child abuse laws, drug laws, minimum wage laws, animal cruelty laws, and anti-discrimination laws.
Laci - I made no mention of the Branch Dividians - I only commented on the definition of cult as presented by D.G.
Based on the definition given, Catholic, Baptisit, 7th Day Adventist, etc. are all cults.
I could also see how the OWS group would be considered a cult as well based on the given definition and their common beliefs regarding the 1% vs. the 99%.
Wow, he reminds me of this dude!
ReplyDeleteWho is the largest weapons supplier in the world? The US government.
ReplyDeleteWhy do we have a second amendment? To protect our third amendment rights. Think about it.
And just as the founders did not want a central bank, they did not want a standing army. Yet what else would you call today's Law Enforcement and its military weapons, vehicles and technology?
We should ask Iraq vet Jose Guerena what he thinks, but we can't the Arizona standing army killed him with a fusillade of 70 bullets in 7 seconds.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/25/jose-guerena-arizona-_n_867020.html
Wow, anonymous, that is one of the most bizarre comments I have ever seen on the internet (and that's saying a lot).
ReplyDeleteI'm left without words!
Pooch, thank god you're speechless, better than your constant howling to the moon (bats).
ReplyDeleteWow, you are the only person I know of, anonymous, who is proud to be a nutcase!
ReplyDeleteBut, you are too ignorant to understand how insane your comment was! And that's what I was saying.
It was too bizarre for words!
So, it's funny hearing you call me a nutcase!
You haven't answered Dog Gone's challenge. But, Iknow full well that you are too stupid and ignorant--a quite possibly non compos mentis (or in your case that may be "compost mentis"), to be able answer that challenge!
Pooch, those are alotta words without actually saying anything.
ReplyDeleteI'm saying quite a bit, anonymous, but you are too much of a fuckwit to understand what is going on.
ReplyDeleteI know you are not that bright. SO here it is in simple language.
-I say you are too bizarre for words.
-You say that you are proud to be that insane.
-I point that out to you
-You say you can't understand.
Simple enough.
Thanks for the laughs! I know you are amusing at least two of us with your ignorance!
BTW, you still haven't answered Dog Gone's challenge.
Too stupid to do it?
Do I have this right?
ReplyDeleteUnderstanding that the USG is the world's largest weapons dealer makes me insane.
Understanding that the colonists were not enamored by British troops coming into their homes, raping their daughters, taking their food, slaughtering their cattle, stealing their horses had no bearing on the second amendment.
Understanding that when the 'peace officers' became Law Enforsement, became militarized, they are nothing more than an army of brutal knights errant, out looking for trouble until they find it.
Again, it is a shame we can't ask Jose Guerena about that.
It's a shame you don't want people to be able to defend themselves. You nuts would rather see a woman raped than to be able to be a victor and not a victim.
If I was given a challenge I wouldn't know about it since I'm not interested in her condescending nonsense and read nothing she writes. In other words, keep it to yourself.
Non violent protests exercising freedom of assembly don't require the protection or exercise of what this idiot construes to be his second amendment rights.
ReplyDeleteThe protests are non violent. Civil disobedience requires that the protesters do not fight back.
Armed rebellion against government is contrary to the second amendment,and the first amendment. This man and his little private pseudo militia is probably not legal to the extent that they try to usurp the role of the real border patrol, because they have no authority to act in any legal capacity towards an illegal immigrant, or any other person acting illegally.
This is a clear case of vigilanteism, with people taking the law into their own hands, which is itself illgal.
What a bunch of ill-educated dorks playing dress up with guns because it gives them a cheap thrill.
Anonymous, I don't think there is a "standing army" today. Nor do I think there's any validity to the 2A protecting the other Amendments, whether you're talking about the 1st which is usually the case or the 3rd, like you just did.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Laci that's pretty bizarre stuff, but I see where you're coming from. Yours is a combination of self-aggrandizing braggadocio and grandiose victimism.
Pooch said, "I don't think there is a "standing army" today. Nor do I think there's any validity to the 2A protecting the other Amendments,..."
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing 'you don't think', that there has been a militarization of Law Enforcement either, which proves you don't think.
Clearly, Jose Guereno faced an invasion of his home by a standing army that riddled his body full of bullet holes with military-style weapons. There is no doubt that the Branch Davidians in Waco faced a standing army, as did the people in New Orleans during and after Katrina. There is no doubt that many of the OWS protesters see a standing army in front of them.
I'm curious, what would you call it when that standing army drops a bomb on a house in Philadelphia?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/11/national/main6472296.shtml
And I'm insane? Give me an effing break!
It is total lack of understanding and lack of reading what the founders said and believed in regard to the 2A that would cause anyone to say there is no correlation between that amendment and several others.
And then today, we read this
http://www.click2houston.com/news/29619788/detail.html
Anonymous proves he's out of touch with reality when he says:
ReplyDeletePooch said, "I don't think there is a "standing army" today. Nor do I think there's any validity to the 2A protecting the other Amendments,..."
No, that was MikeB who said that.
I'm not sure whether your problem is that you don't understand English, or you are insane.
It's has more to do with what you are saying and that it has no bearing on reality.
Definition: A standing army is a professional permanent army. It is composed of full-time career soldiers and is not disbanded during times of peace.
Law enforcement broadly refers to any system by which some members of society act in an organized manner to promote adherence to the law by discovering and punishing persons who violate the rules and norms governing that society.
For the most part law enforcement is considered paramilitary, that is a force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military, but which is not considered part of a state's formal armed forces.
Since most law enforcement is local, it would probably come under either the category of militia, or the state's ability to enforce its laws.
Even with the "militarisation" of law enforcement in the USA, any LEO would be considered paramilitary than military.
But there's are a couple of problems with US law enforcement:
1) the military is not allowed to enforce US laws
2) The criminals are well armed.
You aren't seriously expecting US cops to rush in like 19th Century Bobbies with truncheons against miltiarily armed criminals and crazies: are you?
The US may be the largest exporter of arms, but that wouldn't be the government since there is no nationalised arms manufacturer. The Government licences arms sales, but does not directly sell arms.
You will find for all these weapons and weapons systyems that are sold, they are made by private industry, not the government.
Again Private industry is selling the arms, not the government.
If you aren't insane, then you are incredibly ignorant.
But, it is fun hearing you demonstrate your lack of understanding and knowledge.
My bad, I misattibuted.
ReplyDeletePooch said, "A standing army is a professional permanent army. It is composed of full-time career soldiers.."
Clearly this is wrong since the army is made up of enlistees, many of whom only serve for a short time and are not career soldiers.
Your argument is based on euphemisms and semantics.
It is also quite obvious by the posts here that you favor the local standing armies to enforce your puritanism. OMG! people are having fun with their vices, we must criminalize their behavior for victimless crimes.
That is either idiotic or insane. No, it actually is police state mentality enforced by the local standing army.
Anonymous, define "euphemism".
ReplyDeleteStanding armies are full time and professional even if there is an enlistee serving for a short term. That is irrelevant to the issue.
The real key to standing army is that it is professional, that is the person who serves does so full time for the period of enlistment. They are supposed to serve full time and not work other jobs in a proper professional military.
Law enforcement is paramilitary by nature and definition. Which you didn't understand, APU.
No euphemism or technicalities--those are the proper definitions of the terms.
Your failure to grasp those definitions shows that you are not working in the same reality.
But, you are definitely demonstrating that you are an anarchist since I am not sure who you would have enforce the laws.
Likewise, the Freedoms Phoenix, USD Border Guards, or whatever the fuck the organisation is looks like an army to me, yet it is outside of civilian control.
Who controls them?
That is far worse than your imagined police state, anonymous.
I'll also ask you to define "semantics", anonymous.
ReplyDeleteI gave textbook definitions of the terms-no euphemism or semantics involved.
Those are the commonly accepted definitions of the terms.
Here's some of your political correctness, euphemistic bullshit. from garbage man ( an honest blue collar job) to sanitation engineer to environmental technician. Total nonsense.
ReplyDeleteConsider the word 'immunity', something the Iraqis will not give to US soldiers after this year.
But, in Haditha, Iraq soldiers killed 24 unarmed innocent people includin an 80 year-old, one-legged wheelchair bound man at such close range that his family saw his entrails ooze out of his body in front of children and women. They then proceeded to butcher eveyone else in the house including babies shot a point blank range, the children the same, the women the same and the man's sons the same. Imunity for turning a peaceful residence into an abattoir.
Immunity, exactly like the local standing army that slaughtered Jose Guereno, exactly like the local standing army did to the 80 some dead from their created inferno in Waco, just lie the local standing army did by dropping a bomb in a neighborhood in Philadelphia. Immunity.
And do you puritan nuts care? Hell no. They are Law enforcement. Law enforcement, my ass, they are murderers plain and simple. We have abandoned the rule of law.
If there were 'equality' under the rule of law under the guise of protecting children, using Waco as the example, every Catholic church in the country should have been burned down.
Unfortunately, you puritan idiots can't see what is right in front of you.
Here's some of your political correctness, euphemistic bullshit. from garbage man ( an honest blue collar job) to sanitation engineer to environmental technician. Total nonsense.
ReplyDeleteNobody mentioned anything of that. So, I am not sure of your point.
As I said, I used textbook definitions of the terms.
But, in Haditha, Iraq soldiers killed 24 unarmed innocent people
What does that have to do with the issue of standing armies enforcing laws in the US?
His name is Jose Guerena, who was an alleged marijuana trafficker armed with an AR-15 rifle at the time of the incident--the civilian version of the M-16. Um,the cops see a gun and he's not smart enough to drop it. His family filed a Civil Suit in this matter.
Waco--another incident where law enforcement encountered heavily armed people who shot at them.
You seriously going to call them a church and allow them to hide their illegal activities behind "religion"--give me a break!
The Philadelphia Bombing: A police helicopter then dropped a four-pound bomb made of C-4 plastic explosive and Tovex, a dynamite substitute, onto the roof of the house. The resulting explosion caused incendiary materials listed in the police indictment, and stored by MOVE in the house, to catch fire. A civil suit in US federal court, a jury ordered the City of Philadelphia to pay $1.5 million to a survivor and relatives of two people killed in the incident.
Heavily armed suspects.
As I said, you aren't seriously expecting US cops to rush in like 19th Century Bobbies with truncheons against militarily armed criminals and crazies: are you?
Who do you propose deals with heavily armed criminals?
So far, Anonymous, I see you ranting,but not offering any solutions to this.
And using situations where armed people resist arrest isn't going to make you any points.
It is sad you can't figure out who the real criminals are. You may want to become a union rep for the killers. I'm sure you think Kathryn Johnston of Atlanta was a vicious criminal also. She's dead also.
ReplyDeleteAnon, law enforcement is not a standing army.
ReplyDeleteWaco was a crazy cult rejected by the real Davidians, led by a sick, twisted pervert. They were a dangerous and treasonous bunch of armed idiots who shot Treasury agents who were lawfully serving a search warrant for unlawful gun traffic. They had a history of bizare, dangerous, violent behavior towards each other, and towards others.
"After the death of Lois and probate of Lois' estate in January 1987, Howell [aka David Koresh]attempted to gain control of the Mt Carmel center by force. George Roden had dug up the casket of one Anna Hughes from the Davidian cemetery and had challenged Howell to a resurrection contest to prove who was the rightful heir to the leadership. Howell instead went to the police and claimed Roden was guilty of corpse abuse. By October 31, 1987 the county prosecutors had refused to file charges without proof and so on November 3, 1987 Howell and seven armed companions attempted to access the Mt. Carmel chapel with the goal of photographing the body in the casket. George Roden was advised of the interlopers and grabbed an Uzi in response. The sheriff's department responded about 20 minutes into the gunfight."
Yeah, this is nothing like the modern Roman Catholic church, whatever problems it might have:
"In mid-1989, a Davidian named Wayman Dale Adair visited George Roden to discuss Adair's vision of being God's chosen messiah. Roden killed Adair with an axe. Roden was found guilty under an insanity defense and was committed to a mental hospital. Shortly after Roden's commitment, Howell [akaKoresh]raised money to pay off all the back taxes on Mt. Carmel owed by Roden and took legal control of the property.[7]"
and of course there is this::
ReplyDelete"On August 5, 1989, Koresh (at that point still legally named Vernon Howell) released the "new light" audiotape in which Koresh stated he had been told by God to procreate with the women in the group to establish a "House of David" of his "Special People." This involved married couples in the group dissolving their marriages and agreeing that only David Koresh could have sexual relations with the wives.[7]"
Waco went up in smoke only because they were DANGEROUS wacko nut jobs with no legitimate claim tobeing a religious group.
And then there was this:
"Weapons
In addition to allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct, Koresh and his followers were accused of stockpiling illegal weapons. Authorities investigated these charges and obtained a warrant to search Koresh's compound. Former Davidian Marc Breault claimed that Koresh had "...M16 lower receiver parts"[7] (combining certain M16 components with a modified AR-15 lower receiver possibly constitutes the manufacture of a firearm that would be classified as a machine gun;[10] the Hughes amendment, attached to the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, effectively outlawed civilian ownership of any machine guns manufactured after the date of enactment[11])."
and
"According to the Affidavit presented by ATF investigator David Aguilera to US Magistrate Dennis G. Green on February 25, 1993, the Branch Davidian gun business (the "Mag Bag", Route 7, Box 555-B, Waco, Texas, 76705, located on Farm Road number 2491), had purchased many legal guns and gun parts from various legal vendors (such as forty-five semi-automatic AR15 lower receivers from Olympic Arms). Deliveries by UPS for the "Mag Bag" were accepted and paid for at Mount Carmel Center by Woodrow Kendrick, Paul Fatta, David Koresh or Steve Schneider. These purchases were traced by Aguilera through the normal channels used to track legal firearms purchases from legal vendors. None of the weapons and firearms were illegally obtained nor illegally owned by the "Mag Bag"; however, Aguilera affirmed to the judge that in his experience, in the past other purchasers of such legal gun parts had modified them to make illegal firearms. The search warrant was justified not on the basis there was proof that the Davidians had purchased anything illegal, but on the basis that they could be modifying legal arms to illegal arms, and that automatic weapon fire had been reported on the compound.[13] When the reports of automatic fire were first received, Steve Schneider and David Koresh showed the county sheriff department a "Hellfire" device, a quick-firing trigger sold with an ATF letter that the device was not a machinegun."
Not a lot of problems with the RC and weapons charges like this.
So Anoninny, do you approve of this?:
ReplyDelete"Sinful Messiah"
"On February 27, 1993, the Waco Tribune-Herald began the “Sinful Messiah” series of articles. It began, "If you are a Branch Davidian, Christ lives on a threadbare piece of land 10 miles east of here called Mount Carmel. He has dimples, claims a ninth-grade education, married his legal wife when she was 14, enjoys a beer now and then, plays a mean guitar, reportedly packs a 9mm Glock and keeps an arsenal of military assault rifles, and willingly admits that he is a sinner without equal." The article alleged that Koresh had physically abused children in the compound and had taken multiple underage brides amounting to statutory rape. Koresh was also said to advocate polygamy for himself and declared himself married to several female residents of the small community. According to the paper, Koresh declared he was entitled to at least 140 wives, that he was entitled to claim any of the females in the group as his, that he had fathered at least a dozen children through the harem and that some of these mothers became brides as young as 12 or 13 years old.[14]"
Anoninny, you are really slack and loose in your ideas, failing in points of important facts.
ReplyDeleteWaco was appropriate, if badly carried out.
The actual military in Iraq had misconduct, horrible misconduct, but only immunity from Iraqi prosecution, which is something of a shambles and known tobe more than a bit corrupt on occasion. That is not to say that there is not an appropriate U.S. military justice which does try to hold people in our armed forces accountable.
Here is an example of that justice working:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/10/army-afghan-killings-suspect-more-charges-100410/
"Afghan killings suspect may face more charges
By Jon R. Anderson - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Oct 4, 2010 12:15:15 EDT
JOINT BASE LEWIS-McCHORD, Wash. — The alleged ringleader of a self-styled ‘hit squad’ in a rogue platoon of hash-smoking infantrymen in Afghanistan may soon be facing additional murder charges for similar crimes while stationed in Iraq."
and then we have this about Jose Guerena
"Documents released yesterday by the Pima County Sheriff's Department show that the controversial shooting of an Iraq War vet was the result of a complex drug investigation into the man and his brother.
Jose Guerena, a 26-year-old father of two and veteran of the war, died on May 5, in his home near Tucson when the PCSD's SWAT team stormed his house and shot at him over 60 times.
The drug investigation netted a whopping one bag of marijuana, which was found in a different home also targeted in the investigation.
At the time of the raid, the Arizona Daily Star reports Guerena was holding an assault rifle. SWAT members thought he'd fired at them, but it was learned after authorities unloaded more than 60 rounds into Guerena that the safety on his gun was on and he hadn't fired a shot."
Now I understand that there is some controversy over whether or not the authorities properly identified themselves..... but if you are NOT dealing something illegal, do you really worry about large scale home invasions such that you need to be holding an assault rifle? I think that there was quite possibly some reasonable basis for this action, whether it resulted in them finding what they expected or not; itdoesn't look as if these were the only individuals in this drug organization, so if the drugs were kept somewhere else, it is not unreasonable.
Law enforcement is not perfect; our courts are not perfect, but we still live under the rule of law. The 'victims' you citeddon't appear to live under those laws.
Law enforcement is not the military, no matter how often you repeat it.
And you don't answer my challenging question because you DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER, or even how to find and understand them.
It doesn't matter how you try to spin it, you are bone ignorant, and what you think you know is factually inaccurate on a massive scale.
AND you are a rightwing nut job.
Waco went up in smoke only because they were DANGEROUS wacko nut jobs with no legitimate claim to being a religious group.
ReplyDeleteAt least be honest....Waco went up in smoke when and while the government drove an armored vehicle through a wall.....
Or if they bring out armored cars and start running over OWSr's, it is ok for me to start the conversation.... OWSr's were killed because they were DANGEROUS wacko nut jobs with no legitimate claim to being a political group..
Here you go, use this to demonize or kill the messenger
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Kopel
Here is the message regarding Waco
http://www.davekopel.com/Waco/LawRev/warrant.htm
"Or if they bring out armored cars and start running over OWSr's, it is ok for me to start the conversation.... OWSr's were killed because they were DANGEROUS wacko nut jobs with no legitimate claim to being a political group.. "
ReplyDeleteExcept that OWS isn't a cult, doesn't involve statutory rape, or illegal guns, or any of the other many reasons that the Waco Wacko Branch Davidians got into trouble with the government.
But if OWS DOES ever become like the Branch Davidians, I have no problem whatsoever with the government intervening as necessary, including in ways similar to the Waco action.
Except that OWS isn't a cult, doesn't involve statutory rape, or illegal guns, or any of the other many reasons that the Waco Wacko Branch Davidians got into trouble with the government.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI
Sure sounds like a cult to me.....
with sex....
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-10-19/news/bs-md-ci-occupy-baltimore-rape-20111019_1_sexual-assaults-sexual-abuse-report-crimes
and drug use....
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ows%20drugs.....&source=newssearch&cd=1&ved=0CCwQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thefix.com%2Fcontent%2Fnypd-tweets-shroud-zucotti-park-drug-dealers-mystery9187&ctbm=nws&ei=HtKuTrDoCMr2sgaKmZTSDw&usg=AFQjCNHNl1E40beM0miAd3pwGOYbBm2dDQ&cad=rja
There were at least six significant problems with its credibility as evidence that the Branch Davidians were operating a methamphetamine lab prior to ATF's raid. First, the allegations were very stale by legal standards. ATF received the information more than 5 years after the methamphetamine lab equipment was found and the Sheriff's Department visited the premises to investigate the claim. Second, it is undisputed that Koresh found the methamphetamine lab equipment and Koresh himself called the Sheriff to pick up the equipment. Third, the person rumored to have been involved in drugs was an occupant of the premises prior to Koresh taking over, and subsequently was sent to prison. Fourth, the former leader, Mr. Roden, not Koresh, was suspected of having been involved in illegal drugs. Fifth, the alleged statement by Koresh about drugs could not be verified independently. Sixth, the building Mr. Breault implies housed the methamphetamine materials burned down in 1990, 3 years before the raid.
So when dot.gov starts using flimsy excuses to treat your precious protestors as speed bumps please do not come crying to me....
The Branch Davidians ran afoul of the government for a number of reasons, but the primary one was weapons violations.
ReplyDeleteThe whole conflict began over their illegally resisting the serving of a perfectly legal and well justified search warrant in a violent manner.
I haven't seen any widespread sexual abuse in the OWS, and many of the reported instances appear to be right wing smear tactics that don't hold up to a close scrutiny.
But more than that, there is NO evidence that sexual abuse or violence has been approved as an integral part of the OWS - quite the opposite. They are making substantial efforts to assure that everyone is safe from any kind of predatory behavior or violence - a significant difference frmo Koresh and his lunatics. Nor have there been any attempts to violently resist a search warrant, or any weapons violations. They emphatically and repeatedly call for peaceful protest and civil disobedience, not armed resistance, not ever. That is a right wing nut idea, not mainstream.
You lose on this one, you are trying to conflate unlike things. Oh, and lets point out as well that there are far far far more people peacefully participating in the OWS, as an increasingly mainstream movement than ever at any time were part of the Branch Davidians. Taken as a whole, the number of problems with the OWS in terms of any kind of crime appear to be statistically FAR lower than the general population.
Kind of like the results of the exhorbitantly expensive and useless drug testing the poor in Florida turned up that the poor use drugs less than the rich, or the mainstream.
When you begin with false information, the rest of your assertions don't do well.
ReplyDeleteCongressman Lewis is on the record as having stated he was not silenced, he was asked to speak at a different time, and insists he was cheered and otherwise warmly welcomed by the protesters.
That has a lot of reasons as basis-none of which are the racism claimed on the right. They include advance notice so that his speaking could reach an even larger audience, for starters.
As to what is and is not a cult:
Cult
noun
1.
a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
D.G using your definition of cult covers every single religious group in existence. It could also be expanded to include any political party if you call their support of their political beliefs to be veneration.
ReplyDeleteHeck it could be used to describe both the progun and anti gun gorups as well.
Jim, are you going to seriously suggest that the Branch Davidians were in anyway a mainstream religion? Which one?
ReplyDeleteThey claimed to be part of the Seventh Day Adventists, which is nonsense given what the Adventists believe in relation to what was preached by David "Korresh".
One cannot cloak illegal activity under the guise of religion. Employment Division, Department of Human Resources of Oregon v. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990) states that a law that applies to everyone who might engage in that act, for whatever reason— is a "neutral law of general applicability," (that is applies to all people) in the Court's phrasing. The First Amendment's protection of the "free exercise" of religion does not allow a person to use a religious motivation as a reason not to obey such generally applicable laws. "To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself." Thus, the Court had held that religious beliefs did not excuse people from complying with laws forbidding polygamy, child labor laws, Sunday closing laws, laws requiring citizens to register for Selective Service, and laws requiring the payment of Social Security taxes.
So, one is barred if one attempts to use any religion as a defence from obeying any generally applicable law.
The Supreme Court has sharply limited scrutiny of incidental burdens in the context of speech and religion. If it permitted a wide approach, it would be quite easy for citizens to evade compulsory military service, child abuse laws, drug laws, minimum wage laws, animal cruelty laws, and anti-discrimination laws.
Laci - I made no mention of the Branch Dividians - I only commented on the definition of cult as presented by D.G.
ReplyDeleteBased on the definition given, Catholic, Baptisit, 7th Day Adventist, etc. are all cults.
I could also see how the OWS group would be considered a cult as well based on the given definition and their common beliefs regarding the 1% vs. the 99%.