If we look at the Bureau of Justice statistics about 40% of the guns coming from family and friends in crimes, then this should also tell us something about the group that is most often committing crimes, including crimes with guns.
From MSNBC.com
Guns are used in 40% of crimes? Wow, amazing. You love to repeat the lie.
ReplyDeleteWow, amazing, MAgunner how you don't have an answer for 40% of the guns used in crimes coming from family and friends.
ReplyDeleteYou can expect I'll be repeating that figure in the future. It is a stinging indictment of gunowners for suppying the legal guns to the criminals who commit illegal acts.
Who is more often arrested? That's easy, blacks and brown people; and, they don't even need to commit actual crimes.
ReplyDeletedog gone said "You can expect I'll be repeating that figure in the future. It is a stinging indictment of gunowners for suppying the legal guns to the criminals who commit illegal acts."
ReplyDeleteNowhere in that study does it say that family supplies 40% of the legal guns to criminals. I suggest that you pay particular attention to table 8. You might want to actually read and comprehend the whole thing.
Dog Gone,
ReplyDeletePerhaps you'd like to say what percentage of total guns in this country are used in crimes? It's possible that these "friends and family" are themselves criminals who pass guns around.
"It's possible that these "friends and family" are themselves criminals who pass guns around."
ReplyDeleteFellow gang members and drug dealers are also family and friends.
"Wow, amazing, MAgunner how you don't have an answer for 40% of the guns used in crimes coming from family and friends."
You repeatedly mangle the figure. Sometimes it's "40% of borrowed guns are used to commit a crime"; sometimes it's "40% of crime guns are borrowed from friends/family." These are VERY different ratios. You're confusing the numerators and denominators.
Furthermore, what does it matter if 40% of crime guns are borrowed? Consider two examples:
1) In 2011, Country A had 100 homicides where a gun was used. 75 of the murder weapons were borrowed from family.
2) In 2011, Country B had 100 homicides where a gun was used. 20 of the murder weapons were borrowed from family.
Which country is "better?" The one with where 75% of crime guns were borrowed, or the one where 20% of guns were borrowed?
MA gunner writes:
ReplyDeleteFellow gang members and drug dealers are also family and friends.
Um...NO. If someone is a fellow gang member, they presumably cannot get a firearm legally; those firearms fall in the 40% of guns used in crimes that come from the street, not legal guns.
You're stuck with the fact that of the guns used in crimes, 40% of them come from you pro-gunners making your legal firearms available to people who commit crimes, and another 10% from people who legally buy them, and then illegally resell them to a criminal.
That underlines why it is you pro-gunners should be better regulated as to whom you transfer your firearms.
Your so-called 2nd Amendment rights are trampling on the right of the rest of us to be safe from your dangerous guns put in the hands of criminals.
Are you citing the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates from BJS? Can you give a link to the actual report or table, not the dontlie.org site or the front page of the BJS site?
ReplyDelete"If someone is a fellow gang member, they presumably cannot get a firearm legally"
ReplyDeleteIf it is the prisoner survey you're citing, 40% of inmates surveyed said they had obtained their last firearm from a family or friend. This says nothing about the whether the seller/lender owned it legally or not.
The 40% of guns obtained as street guns refer to guns which are from criminals, not legal gun owners.
ReplyDeleteALL guns that end up being used in crimes start out as legal guns in the hands of legal owners.
Clearly, not all of those firearms, apparently not even very many of those firearms, come from theft of legal firearms that are reported to police.
That means that there are far too many irresponsible gun owners who do not secure their weapons from criminals, including their own family and friends.
"The 40% of guns obtained as street guns refer to guns which are from criminals, not legal gun owners."
ReplyDeleteI understand what you're claiming, but how do I verify it? Can you link to the original table or publication?
I provided the initial link, which included a further link.
ReplyDeleteWhen I published it, I had waded through a lot of other stuff on the Bureau of Justice stat site to check it out, but I did not save that specific page link.
If you want further clarification, you'll either have to do the same wading through pages of stats, or you might simply email the BoJ with your question, and have them find the information for you.
The figures still underline that owners of legal guns are not doing enough to keep their weapons out of the hands of criminals - in some cases they are previously legal gun owners who become the criminals because they cross that line, other times clearly NOT.
MAgunowner said...
ReplyDelete"Are you citing the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates from BJS? Can you give a link to the actual report or table, not the dontlie.org site or the front page of the BJS site?"
It's table 8 on page 6.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf
There is nothing in that study that indicates that firearms that came from friends or family were legally held firearms.
Under the heading of Street/illegal source, the options were theft, drug dealer, fence/black market.
I'll help.
ReplyDeletehttp://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf
The report states that in a 1997 survey of 14k state and federal prisoners, just under 40% of prisoners surveyed who possessed a firearm during the offense they're currently imprisoned for, reported obtaining that gun from a family or friend.
That's what it actually reports. You are torturing the data, so to speak.
Thanks, someguy! We overlapped there.
ReplyDeleteYou're right. The gun the prisoner used could have been an illegal "assault weapon," illegally owned by the offender's drug dealing child molestor brother in law, who gave it to the offender to murder a competing drug dealer. This would certainly fall under dog gone's 40%.
I supplied the number in another recent post. Using the 40% number, criminals obtained at most about 144,000 firearms that they used in violent crimes from family/friends. As there are roughly 80 million adults who own firearms, that is 0.18% ... meaning at most about 1 in 500 adults who own firearms irresponsibly transferred firearms to people that used them to commit violent crimes. Now keep in mind that if some criminals committed multiple violent crimes using the same firearm in 2010 (very likely in my mind), then the number of improperly obtained firearms is even lower and the percentage of adults who legally obtained firearms and irresponsibly transferred those firearms to others is even lower.
ReplyDeleteWhile the percentage is low, there were still something like 144,000 firearms used for violent crime. It would be nice if there were a way to reduce that number without hindering citizens who have broken no laws and have no intention of breaking any laws.
MAgunowner said "Thanks, someguy! We overlapped there."
ReplyDeleteNo prob.
The numbers on this board are 40% friends and family, 10% straw, and 50% stolen. But,if you look at the table, you'll notice that 19.9% were purchased from a retail outlet. I guess someone failed to do their fact checking.
"Um...NO. If someone is a fellow gang member, they presumably cannot get a firearm legally; those firearms fall in the 40% of guns used in crimes that come from the street, not legal guns."
ReplyDeleteSo, in light of the research done by me and someguy, do you still believe this?
Yu boyz will try very hard to do anything that you can to avoid the glaringly obvious truth. ALL gunz used to kill everybody were built legally (except in certain countries that have no functional governments to prevent illegal arms manufacture). Every gun, every murder by gun, every suicide by gun; made possible by your blind stupidity and selfisness.
ReplyDeleteJust as I was speculating. That forty percent refers to criminals who got a gun from their criminal associates. Thanks, someguy and MAgunowner.
ReplyDeleteGreg Camp said...
ReplyDeleteJust as I was speculating. That forty percent refers to criminals who got a gun from their criminal associates. Thanks, someguy and MAgunowner.
December 28, 2011 6:47 PM
NO. Nowhere in what I quoted, or what anyone else has quoted did any of the criminals in jail for crimes indicate they had acquired the weapons they used from other criminals. Nada, Nowhere.
That is simply the spin that MAGunner would LIKE desperately to put on the stats that those firearms in 40% of crimes came from family and friends.
No way in the world are criminals ONLY related to other criminals, or only know people who are criminals.
NOR do any of you explain how those 40% of LEGAL guns used in crimes get into the hands of criminals - there is absolutely NOTHING that indicates they are all stolen, or even mostly from thefts.
OK, just to get a more definitive answer than the crap that MAGunner is trying to put off as fact, instead of the spin it is, I'm going to do what Laci and I do here - I'm going to get an answer by actually CONTACTING the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
ReplyDeleteBecause it is what we do, it is what makes this blog better than the echo chamber of the right wing that simply repeats the same factually inaccurate crap, a la Rush Bimbo and Fake News.
And to use one of my favorite phrases for doing things "because I can".
I just made the call to the Bureau of Justice statistics, and was transferred to the voice mail of a Mr. Schnieder (sp approximate). I've left a message indicating my question about the 40% of firearms used in crime originating from family and friends.
I'll report back here with whatever answer I receive.
"Just as I was speculating. That forty percent refers to criminals who got a gun from their criminal associates. Thanks, someguy and MAgunowner."
ReplyDeleteI would phrase it as: of prisoners who are serving time for a crime committed while in possession of a gun and who took part in this survey, 40% said they obtained that gun from friends and family. The tables do not break down the legal status of the previous owner/lender, or the legal status of the gun itself.
It would be bad science to generalize that 40% to the general population.
dog gone said...
ReplyDelete"NO. Nowhere in what I quoted, or what anyone else has quoted did any of the criminals in jail for crimes indicate they had acquired the weapons they used from other criminals. Nada, Nowhere."
Well, let's see, there is that pesky little section at the bottom "Street/illegal" wherein one of the sections is drug dealer and another is black market. That would indicate it came from a criminal.
There is nothing in this report that would indicate that none of the guns from friends are family would be "illegal" guns.
Furthermore, if you look at table 6, you would see that (on average) 20% of those criminals grew up in a household where a parent was incarcerated (what if one of those family members handed over a heater) 18% came from a household with a drug problem (what if one of those family members hooked a fella up wit a shootin iron) and 19% associated with criminals (what if those friends supplied a future criminal entrepreneur with some start-up assets)
dog gone said
"NOR do any of you explain how those 40% of LEGAL guns used in crimes get into the hands of criminals - there is absolutely NOTHING that indicates they are all stolen, or even mostly from thefts."
I'm assuming that by "legal" you mean from family and friends and your answer is above. Also, since 13.9% of firearms were purchased at a retail location, what makes you think that the future criminal wasn't legally allowed to purchase those 12.8% from family or borrow the other 18.5% at the time of the sale/loan? You don't.
dog gone said
"I'll report back here with whatever answer I receive."
I'm sure your answer will be as accurate as you math has been on this subject.
I'm sure the Bureau of Justice can clarify if the distinction between family and friends, versus straw purchase, or street illegal guns refers to legal guns or just a different illegal source of weapons used in crime.
ReplyDeleteI suggest we wait for that clarification.
In any event, you have yet to clarify how all these guns used in crime are in the hands of criminals.
If you claim the guns are legally purchased AND used in crime by the purchaser - then we clearly should be stricter about the people to whom we sell guns.
If you claim that they are all stolen, then guns are too easily stolen and need to be better secured.
I doubt even you are trying to suggest that there is only a tiny tiny pool of weapons signed out like library books by criminals, and then returned to some central shady source that loans them out to new criminals.
One of the other questions I'm hoping to learn is the total number of guns used in crimes in the most recent couple of years for which there are statistics. Clearly some of the crimes involve multiple firearms, so the number of crimes is not itself an indicator.
And we still come back to the issue that ALL the firearms start out as LEGAL firearms, and far far too many of them end up involved in crimes.
For which NONE of you pro-gunners have an adequate proposed solutions.
"I'm sure the Bureau of Justice can clarify if the distinction between family and friends, versus straw purchase, or street illegal guns refers to legal guns or just a different illegal source of weapons used in crime."
ReplyDeleteDon't bother. It's perfectly clear from the report:
"While family and friends provided a quarter of military-style semiautomatic or fully automatic firearms..."
It's always illegal to lend your machine gun.
Asking about the legality of ownership of the gun, or the legality of the gun itself, would be inappropriate in this survey; the prisoners probably just don't know the true answer, and would give unreliable answers.
Getting a gun that was illegally owned by a family member who was a criminal would clearly be in your beloved 40% figure.
ReplyDeleteHere are the pertinent questions from the survey instrument (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/sisfcfq.pdf):
S5Q44g. (SHOW CARD G)
How did you obtain the (Insert responses from S5Q44b)?
(1) I stole it
(2) I rented it
(3) I borrowed it from somebody/held it for somebody
(4) I traded something for it
(5) I bought it for cash
(6) It was a gift
(7) Other - Specify _______
(D) Don't know
(R) Refused - Skip to S5Q44i
S5Q44h. (SHOW CARD H)
And which of the following best describes where you got the (Insert responses from S5Q44b)?
(1) From a gun shop or store
(2) From a pawnshop
(3) At a flea market
(4) At a gun show
(5) From the victim(s)
(6) From a friend/family member
(7) From a fence/black market source
(8) Off the street/from a drug dealer
(9) In a burglary
(10) Other - Specify ________
(D) Don't know
(R) Refused
"Just as I was speculating. That forty percent refers to criminals who got a gun from their criminal associates. Thanks, someguy and MAgunowner.
ReplyDeleteDecember 28, 2011 6:47 PM"
You're still speculatin', dumbfuck.
Dog Gone,
ReplyDeleteOur answers may not be adequate for you, but they work for us. As you've been shown, the number of guns used in crimes as compared to the total number of guns in America is tiny. As you've shown, crime rates are steadily falling. You're trying to use a 105mm howitzer to clear the back yard of moles.
dog gone said...
ReplyDelete"I'm sure the Bureau of Justice can clarify if the distinction between family and friends, versus straw purchase, or street illegal guns refers to legal guns or just a different illegal source of weapons used in crime."
clearly you didn't read this report prior to proclaiming that 40% firearms comes from friends/family 10% from straw purchases and 40% stolen, because the report indicates that 13.9% were purchased at a retail location. So, either you didn't read it or you're a liar. Which is it?
GC writes As you've shown, crime rates are steadily falling. You're trying to use a 105mm howitzer to clear the back yard of moles.
ReplyDeleteNo.
The U.S. has a FAR higher rate of firearm violence than other comparable developed countries.
You're willing to excuse pretty much anything relating to gun violence this side of places like Somalia or the worst areas along the border with Mexico, to try - badly - to justify carrying your fetish object with you everywhere you go.
If it is so damn safe, then you don't need to be carrying. You can't have it both ways that there is a danger.......AND there isn't.
"If it is so damn safe, then you don't need to be carrying. You can't have it both ways that there is a danger.......AND there isn't."
ReplyDeleteApply that same logic to yourself. If crime is high, you want to ban guns for public safety. If crime is low, you want to ban guns because no one needs a dangerous gun. You can't have it both ways either.
The way to break out of that logic is viewing self defense as a human right, one that exists and is protected regardless of fluctuations in crime rates.
MAgunner writes:
ReplyDeleteApply that same logic to yourself. If crime is high, you want to ban guns for public safety. If crime is low, you want to ban guns because no one needs a dangerous gun. You can't have it both ways either.
Not quite the same thing. I want to ban gun violence, whether crime is high or low. What is clear is that with more guns, we have more gun violence than places that don't have a lot of guns.
I do not oppose less lethal means for personal use in self defense, which alleviates the worst risks of fatalities and injuries while still allowing for protection. Further, I advocate for better alternate defensive measures - good policing, better funding of checks which prohibit criminals and dangerous people from getting weapons, along with better locks and alarms and surveillance, and also better techniques recommended by criminal justice studies for reducing criminal behavior - both initial, and recidivism.
The way to break out of that logic is viewing self defense as a human right, one that exists and is protected regardless of fluctuations in crime rates.
I agree that safety is a basic human right; I do not agree that guns are. That safety can and should come from other mans than individuals taking the law into their own hands.
This is particularly significant when you see how many innocent people are killed by guns versus the very few provable bad guys are killed in self-defense AND you have to demonstrate that apprehension and conviction wouldn't also e better alternatives..
You also have to add into that figure the lower rates of suicides when firearms are not available. While some people do find other means to end their lives, far more do not.
"I want to ban gun violence, whether crime is high or low."
ReplyDeleteGun violence is already banned. You should pick a new crusade.
Dog Gone,
ReplyDeleteIf you want to ban gun violence and promote safety, why don't you work on encouraging more responsible behavior in everyone? Gun ownership and gun carry aren't by themselves irresponsible acts. You appear to be working from the assumption that human beings are inherently evil or stupid and cannot be improved.