By Stephen D. Foster Jr. from Addicting Info
So, you’re a Libertarian that hates taxes? Well, since you do not like taxes or government, please kindly do the following.
1. Do not use Medicare.
2. Do not use Social Security
3. Do not become a member of the US military, who are paid with tax dollars.
4. Do not ask the National Guard to help you after a disaster.
5. Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
6. Do not call the police to stop intruders in your home.
7. Do not summon the fire department to save your burning home.
8. Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
9. Do not use public restrooms.
10. Do not send your kids to public schools.
11. Do not put your trash out for city garbage collectors.
12. Do not live in areas with clean air.
13. Do not drink clean water.
14. Do not visit National Parks.
15. Do not visit public museums, zoos, and monuments.
16. Do not eat or use FDA inspected food and medicines.
17. Do not bring your kids to public playgrounds.
18. Do not walk or run on sidewalks.
19. Do not use public recreational facilities such as basketball and tennis courts.
20. Do not seek shelter facilities or food in soup kitchens when you are homeless and hungry.
21. Do not apply for educational or job training assistance when you lose your job.
22. Do not apply for food stamps when you can’t feed your children.
23. Do not use the judiciary system for any reason.
24. Do not ask for an attorney when you are arrested and do not ask for one to be assigned to you by the court.
25. Do not apply for any Pell Grants.
26. Do not use cures that were discovered by labs using federal dollars.
27. Do not fly on federally regulated airplanes.
28. Do not use any product that can trace its development back to NASA.
29. Do not watch the weather provided by the National Weather Service.
30. Do not listen to severe weather warnings from the National Weather Service.
31. Do not listen to tsunami, hurricane, or earthquake alert systems.
32. Do not apply for federal housing.
33. Do not use the internet, which was developed by the military.
34. Do not swim in clean rivers.
35. Do not allow your child to eat school lunches or breakfasts.
36. Do not ask for FEMA assistance when everything you own gets wiped out by disaster.
37. Do not ask the military to defend your life and home in the event of a foreign invasion.
38. Do not use your cell phone or home telephone.
39. Do not buy firearms that wouldn’t have been developed without the support of the US Government and military. That includes most of them.
40. Do not eat USDA inspected produce and meat.
41. Do not apply for government grants to start your own business.
42. Do not apply to win a government contract.
43. Do not buy any vehicle that has been inspected by government safety agencies.
44. Do not buy any product that is protected from poisons, toxins, etc…by the Consumer Protection Agency.
45. Do not save your money in a bank that is FDIC insured.
46. Do not use Veterans benefits or military health care.
47. Do not use the G.I. Bill to go to college.
48. Do not apply for unemployment benefits.
49. Do not use any electricity from companies regulated by the Department of Energy.
50. Do not live in homes that are built to code.
51. Do not run for public office. Politicians are paid with taxpayer dollars.
52. Do not ask for help from the FBI, S.W.A.T, the bomb squad, Homeland Security, State troopers, etc…
53. Do not apply for any government job whatsoever as all state and federal employees are paid with tax dollars.
54. Do not use public libraries (or work in one).
55. Do not use the US Postal Service.
56. Do not visit the National Archives.
57. Do not visit Presidential Libraries.
58. Do not use airports that are secured by the federal government.
59. Do not apply for loans from any bank that is FDIC insured.
60. Do not ask the government to help you clean up after a tornado.
61. Do not ask the Department of Agriculture to provide a subsidy to help you run your farm.
62. Do not take walks in National Forests.
63. Do not ask for taxpayer dollars for your oil company.
64. Do not ask the federal government to bail your company out during recessions.
65. Do not seek medical care from places that use federal dollars.
66. Do not use Medicaid.
67. Do not use WIC.
68. Do not use electricity generated by Hoover Dam.
69. Do not use electricity or any service provided by the Tennessee Valley Authority.
70. Do not ask the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild levees when they break.
71. Do not let the Coast Guard save you from drowning when your boat capsizes at sea.
72. Do not ask the government to help evacuate you when all hell breaks loose in the country you are in.
73. Do not visit historic landmarks.
74. Do not visit fisheries.
75. Do not expect to see animals that are federally protected because of the Endangered Species List.
76. Do not expect plows to clear roads of snow and ice so your kids can go to school and so you can get to work.
77. Do not hunt or camp on public land.
78. Do not work anywhere that has a safe workplace because of government regulations.
79. Do not use public transportation.
80. Do not drink water from public water fountains.
81. Do not whine when someone copies your work and sells it as their own. Government enforces copyright laws.
82. Do not expect to own your home, car, or boat. Government organizes and keeps all titles.
83. Do not expect convicted felons to remain off the streets.
84. Do not eat in restaurants that are regulated by food quality and safety standards.
85. Do not seek help from the US Embassy if you need assistance in a foreign nation.
86. Do not apply for a passport to travel outside of the United States.
87. Do not apply for a patent when you invent something.
88. Do not adopt a child through your local, state, or federal governments.
89.Do not use elevators that have been inspected by federal or state safety regulators.
90. Do not use any resource that was discovered by the USGS.
91. Do not ask for energy assistance from the government.
92. Do not move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are much higher.
93. Do not go to a beach that is kept clean by the state.
94. Do not use money printed by the US Treasury.
95. Do not complain when millions more illegal immigrants cross the border because there are no more border patrol agents.
96. Do not attend a state university.
97. Do not see any doctor that is licensed through the state.
98. Do not use any water from municipal water systems.
99. Do not complain when diseases and viruses, that were once fought around the globe by the US government and CDC, reach your house.
100. Do not work for any company that is required to pay its workers a livable wage, provide them sick days, vacation days, and benefits.
101. Do not expect to be able to vote on election days. Government provides voting booths, election day officials, and voting machines which are paid for with taxes.
102. Do not ride trains. The railroad was built with government financial assistance.
The fact is, we pay for the lifestyle we expect. Without taxes, our lifestyles would be totally different and much harder. America would be a third world country. The less we pay, the less we get in return. Americans pay less taxes today since 1958 and is ranked 32nd out of 34 of the top tax paying countries. Chile and Mexico are 33rd and 34th. The Republicans are lying when they say that we pay the highest taxes in the world and are only attacking taxes to reward corporations and the wealthy and to weaken our infrastructure and way of life. So next time you object to paying taxes or fight to abolish taxes for corporations and the wealthy, keep these quotes in mind…
- “I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.”
- "Taxes are the price we pay for civilisation" ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
Laci - I said I take advantage of tax free internet shopping. Just because the government has decided not to tax something does not make it wrong to participate in that activity. I pay plenty of taxes through income tax, payroll tax, property tax, sales tax, etc. In fact I would wager that I pay more in taxes than you do. Now surely there is room to argue on what is and what is not worth spending tax money on? I do believe in certain government functions that they are mandated to perform as spelled out in the Federal Constitution and the various state Constitutions. I won't bother going down the list one by one, but several items on the list I am happy to have my taxes support.
ReplyDeleteWow, Jim, are you aware that there have been repeated attempts to tax mail order and internet shopping for nearly the past 30 years.
DeleteYou might find this interesting:
States, Congress rallying for an e-sales tax:
For states struggling in the troubled economy, this could mean $23 billion in new revenue each year, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Had online retailers collected sales tax this year, Virginia would have added nearly $423 million to its coffers, while Maryland would have seen $376 million and the District $72 million, the group said.
The movement in state capitals is driving newfound support for a proposed bill in Congress that could make collection of sales tax a standard practice on the Web, no matter where a consumer logs in to shop.
Bricks-and-mortar retailers are cheering the moves. For years, their online rivals have resisted charging sales tax, giving them a price advantage. They have cited a 1992 Supreme Court ruling that let online companies off the hook if they didn’t have a physical presence in the state where the customer lived.
Next stupid statement from Jim:
are mandated to perform as spelled out in the Federal Constitution and the various state Constitutions
So, does this mean that The Supreme Court is unable to create law by judicial review?
Laci - I am sure somewhere in your list of comments and links you can point to where the government did in fact pass a bill to tax mail order and internet sales across state lines... I will wait while you look it up and prove that I am wrong for not paying those taxes. Please don't argue that something SHOULD be taxed if my comment is that something is NOT CURRENTLY taxed.
DeleteLaci - I am sure you know that Congress creates laws, not the Supreme Court.
Guess your boss doesn't mind you messing about on the computer instead of working, eh, Jim?
DeleteJim, now you want to go up against me on tax law? How much do you know about that field?
The liability of any non-exempt resident of a US state with a sales tax for payment of the equivalent use tax when purchasing goods from another state (or country) through mail-order, by telephone or through the Internet should not be confused with the issue of direct Internet taxes levied on Internet services themselves, such as bit taxes, bandwidth taxes, franchise taxes, and email taxes. Most such levies are banned until 2014 by the Internet Tax Freedom Act Amendment Acts of 2007 which extends the provisions in the federal Internet Tax Freedom Act beyond its original 2007 expiration.
Goods that would be taxable at home are taxable at the same rate when taken home or delivered, regardless of where or how they were purchased. Numerous local sales tax and use tax exemptions exist according to taxpayer status (for example, there exist exemptions for charitable organizations), exemptions based on size of purchase (e.g., clothing under $110 in Vermont), and exemptions for specific types of goods (e.g., protective clothing, food, medication, and educational materials).
Even customers from jurisdictions that levy sales taxes can in theory have additional tax liabilities when shopping in neighboring no-tax or lower-tax jurisdictions. For example, if an adjacent state has a slightly lower tax rate than the purchaser's home, that shopper could face an additional tax burden even though the purchase was already taxed at the point of sale. The difference in tax rates is referred to by collecting authorities as "tax discount".
I hate to tell you, but to some extent internet sale ARE subject to tax liability.
Despite the fact that most shoppers are unaware of their use tax obligations, there are potentially severe penalties for willful tax evasion. Any online, telephone mail-order, or traveling shopper who makes "tax free" purchases could be successfully prosecuted for evading state use taxes if he or she willfully fails to file the necessary return and pay the required tax, or intentionally omits the information from a required annual return. When a taxing jurisdiction enforces use tax liability, it often also seeks additional penalties and interest accrued for failure to timely remit the necessary tax return and tax payments, as well as possible perjury for omissions on official forms filed.
So, you still want to admit to tax evasion? You have just forfeited your fifth amendment right by you previous statements.
Ignorantia legis non excusat!
Gosh, JimF - grade not last name initial - what WOULD you do without us to educate you and correct your erros of understanding and assumption?
DeleteREAD THIS:
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/sales-tax-internet-29919.html
and, seriously, don't argue law with Laci; real world attorneys lose to Laci, and you're no real world attorney.
Libertarian types, including Tea Partiers, seem to forget that you can't get something for nothing. Like a business, the government must bring in money to provide services to its customers (the public). If there isn't enough income (taxes), there isn't enough services, or the services aren't able to meet the need or quality. Duh. You they can't be upset at the low quality (or absence) of their government services AND be mad that they have to pay taxes.
ReplyDeleteAnd for those types who delude themselves about living "off the grid" and being an island unto themselves, I'd say there's a cabin in the mountains where they are free to go and write their manifestos.
Oh, boy.
ReplyDeleteJimeff:
are you aware that a number of states REQUIRE that you pay taxes on items that you purchase out of state and import--either directly or by having them shipped across state lines--into the state in which its residents live?
The requirement to have internet sales taxed at the point of sale is already on the books in some states. Akternatively, some state income tax forms require that those filling them out self identify their out of state purchases and pay the amount of sales/use taxes due on those items. Those requirements, btw, are not federally mandated.
That list of 101 things not to do if you don't want to pay taxes? most of those items are related to federal programs or state and local programs that depend on federal dollars and oversight.
The problem with most of you Libertoolz is that you're as sharp as a circus tent mallet.
1. Do not use Medicare.
ReplyDeleteI don't
2. Do not use Social Security
I don't
3. Do not become a member of the US military, who are paid with tax dollars.
I didn't
4. Do not ask the National Guard to help you after a disaster.
Never have
5. Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
Average response time for my area is 3 hours - 3 days depending upon the emergency
6. Do not call the police to stop intruders in your home.
See number 5
7. Do not summon the fire department to save your burning home.
Ours is volunteer and much faster than the police
8. Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
I'd rather not
9. Do not use public restrooms.
See number 8
10. Do not send your kids to public schools.
They arrest you if you don't
11. Do not put your trash out for city garbage collectors.
Not available. I have to pay for my own garbage collection
12. Do not live in areas with clean air.
WTF? No clean air without the government?
13. Do not drink clean water.
See number 12
14. Do not visit National Parks.
Lines are too long
15. Do not visit public museums, zoos, and monuments.
I wish I had the time instead of working
16. Do not eat or use FDA inspected food and medicines.
I pay for my own food, inspected or not
17. Do not bring your kids to public playgrounds.
We only have those at the school
18. Do not walk or run on sidewalks.
Too fat for that
19. Do not use public recreational facilities such as basketball and tennis courts.
Hahahahaha! Like there are any in my town.
20. Do not seek shelter facilities or food in soup kitchens when you are homeless and hungry.
All of our local pantries are privately run on donated supplies.
21. Do not apply for educational or job training assistance when you lose your job.
They have that?
22. Do not apply for food stamps when you can’t feed your children.
I never have
23. Do not use the judiciary system for any reason.
They get a little pissed if you settle matters without them
24. Do not ask for an attorney when you are arrested and do not ask for one to be assigned to you by the court.
I have to pay my attorney
26. Do not use cures that were discovered by labs using federal dollars.
ReplyDeleteHow about ones by private laboratories?
27. Do not fly on federally regulated airplanes.
Are there any that are not?
28. Do not use any product that can trace its development back to NASA.
Okay, that one's a little difficult
29. Do not watch the weather provided by the National Weather Service.
Its usually wrong
30. Do not listen to severe weather warnings from the National Weather Service.
See number 29
31. Do not listen to tsunami, hurricane, or earthquake alert systems.
If a tsunami hits my house, the rest of you are probably already fucked.
32. Do not apply for federal housing.
I never have
33. Do not use the internet, which was developed by the military.
Bullshit. Al Gore invented it. He said so.
34. Do not swim in clean rivers.
We only have dirty rivers
35. Do not allow your child to eat school lunches or breakfasts.
I have to pay for them when they do but usually my kids take their own lunch.
36. Do not ask for FEMA assistance when everything you own gets wiped out by disaster.
Never have
37. Do not ask the military to defend your life and home in the event of a foreign invasion.
You all say that will never happen
38. Do not use your cell phone or home telephone.
I try real damn hard not to.
39. Do not buy firearms that wouldn’t have been developed without the support of the US Government and military. That includes most of them.
I thought yo all said that they were made to serve the interests of the gun manufacturers and mortuaries?
40. Do not eat USDA inspected produce and meat.
I think you covered that one
41. Do not apply for government grants to start your own business.
I never have
42. Do not apply to win a government contract.
See #41
43. Do not buy any vehicle that has been inspected by government safety agencies.
They have those?
44. Do not buy any product that is protected from poisons, toxins, etc…by the Consumer Protection Agency.
Guns are safe then. You all say they are not at all regulated
45. Do not save your money in a bank that is FDIC insured.
And miss out on that .15%?
46. Do not use Veterans benefits or military health care.
Never have
47. Do not use the G.I. Bill to go to college.
Never have
48. Do not apply for unemployment benefits.
Never have but I sure do pay into that every paycheck.
49. Do not use any electricity from companies regulated by the Department of Energy.
Not an issue the last 9 days.
50. Do not live in homes that are built to code.
I built my house myself. Not one inspection by anyone so I don't know what code that would be.
51. Do not run for public office. Politicians are paid with taxpayer dollars.
ReplyDeleteNo danger there
52. Do not ask for help from the FBI, S.W.A.T, the bomb squad, Homeland Security, State troopers, etc…
I do everything I can not to need them.
53. Do not apply for any government job whatsoever as all state and federal employees are paid with tax dollars.
No, I work for my paycheck.
54. Do not use public libraries (or work in one).
Not even for eBooks? Crap.
55. Do not use the US Postal Service.
They are still around? They don't deliver to my house anyway.
56. Do not visit the National Archives.
Where are they?
57. Do not visit Presidential Libraries.
See #56
58. Do not use airports that are secured by the federal government.
Are there any that are not?
59. Do not apply for loans from any bank that is FDIC insured.
I think we covered that one.
60. Do not ask the government to help you clean up after a tornado.
Never have
61. Do not ask the Department of Agriculture to provide a subsidy to help you run your farm.
Never have
62. Do not take walks in National Forests.
Not even be accident? When they border your property?
63. Do not ask for taxpayer dollars for your oil company.
I don't have an oil company
64. Do not ask the federal government to bail your company out during recessions.
I don't have a company
65. Do not seek medical care from places that use federal dollars.
I got a bandaid at a first aid station of a National monument once. Does that count?
66. Do not use Medicaid.
Never have
67. Do not use WIC.
Never have
68. Do not use electricity generated by Hoover Dam.
Never have
69. Do not use electricity or any service provided by the Tennessee Valley Authority.
Never have
70. Do not ask the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild levees when they break.
I never have
71. Do not let the Coast Guard save you from drowning when your boat capsizes at sea.
Not much danger of that happening
72. Do not ask the government to help evacuate you when all hell breaks loose in the country you are in.
Appalachia? Where would they take us?
73. Do not visit historic landmarks.
Even ones without a marker? Define historic?
74. Do not visit fisheries.
Where the hell is a fishery and why go there?
75. Do not expect to see animals that are federally protected because of the Endangered Species List.
Umm, Okay, I won't. Wait, does that include alligators?
76. Do not expect plows to clear roads of snow and ice so your kids can go to school and so you can get to work.
ReplyDeleteThey don't. If it snows they just cancel school.
77. Do not hunt or camp on public land.
I hunt and camp on my land
78. Do not work anywhere that has a safe workplace because of government regulations.
I work from home.
79. Do not use public transportation.
I think I rode a schoolbus once on a field trip
80. Do not drink water from public water fountains.
We don't have any
81. Do not whine when someone copies your work and sells it as their own. Government enforces copyright laws.
But in order for them to enforce it, don't you have to whine about it first?
82. Do not expect to own your home, car, or boat. Government organizes and keeps all titles.
That reminds me, I should register my deed with the courthouse some day.
83. Do not expect convicted felons to remain off the streets.
They don't that's part of the problem
84. Do not eat in restaurants that are regulated by food quality and safety standards.
Didn't we cover that one a couple of times?
85. Do not seek help from the US Embassy if you need assistance in a foreign nation.
I tried to find an American Embassy when I was stuck in Long Island once to help me get back to free America but couldn't find one.
86. Do not apply for a passport to travel outside of the United States.
Wasn't planning on it
87. Do not apply for a patent when you invent something.
I invented a screwdriver bit for a drill. But it turns out they already have those.
88. Do not adopt a child through your local, state, or federal governments.
I buy mine mail order
89.Do not use elevators that have been inspected by federal or state safety regulators.
I'm pretty sure I was in one in Huntington, Wva. that hasn't been inspected by anyone
90. Do not use any resource that was discovered by the USGS.
Did they discover Americium? Because I always wanted to use that for something but I'm not really sure what it is
91. Do not ask for energy assistance from the government.
Never have
92. Do not move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are much higher.
Like New York?
93. Do not go to a beach that is kept clean by the state.
I have to keep the beach at my lake clean myself. Well, not myself really, I pay my nephew to cut the weeds there. But I didn't apply for a grant to do so.
94. Do not use money printed by the US Treasury.
They get really pissed off if you print your own.
95. Do not complain when millions more illegal immigrants cross the border because there are no more border patrol agents.
Fast And Furious kicking up a notch?
96. Do not attend a state university.
I did but they made me pay them a ton of money I didn't have at the time.
97. Do not see any doctor that is licensed through the state.
Do you know where I can find some unlicensed ones?
98. Do not use any water from municipal water systems.
I have a well.
99. Do not complain when diseases and viruses, that were once fought around the globe by the US government and CDC, reach your house.
We're having problems with ticks right now.
100. Do not work for any company that is required to pay its workers a livable wage, provide them sick days, vacation days, and benefits.
Not sure my company is aware of those rules....
101. Do not expect to be able to vote on election days. Government provides voting booths, election day officials, and voting machines which are paid for with taxes.
I wonder how much that pencil and paper card costs? After we color in our choices with a pencil, we just drop the ballots in a box at the Volunteer Fire Station. What machine?
102. Do not ride trains. The railroad was built with government financial assistance.
Hell no, the ones in Ohio derail and catch fire!
That was fun. I hope Laci doesn't delte them all again :)
ReplyDeleteYou were lucky, I just got back on the net this afternoon.
DeleteI only deleted one set, and that was by accident.
I remember. I think it was when you posted this exact same list before and deleted one thinking they were redundant comments.
Delete"You they can't be upset at the low quality (or absence) of their government services AND be mad that they have to pay taxes."
ReplyDeleteBaldr:
They actually can be upset, but irrationality is a trademark of libertoolz.
"3. Do not become a member of the US military, who are paid with tax dollars.
ReplyDeleteI didn't"
So, you're not even going to say thanks to those who did? Fuck you.
4. Do not ask the National Guard to help you after a disaster.
Never have
Nor do they wait to be asked, they just show up when your governor asks them to. Also, without them shouldering the burden guess who's local taxes would go WAY the fuck up after a serious natural/manmade event.
"5. Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
Average response time for my area is 3 hours - 3 days depending upon the emergency '
Sounds like a complete lie, citation required to convince me that it's not. Do you live in the U.S.?
"6. Do not call the police to stop intruders in your home.
See number 5"
See my previous query.
"7. Do not summon the fire department to save your burning home.
Ours is volunteer and much faster than the police"
Really? And are you aware that many VFD get grants from the state and feds for equipment/training?
"8. Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
I'd rather not'
But you do so, yes? So your comment is bullshit.
9. Do not use public restrooms.
See number 8"
Does a Fat White Man shit in the woods, even when he's at the mall?
"10. Do not send your kids to public schools.
They arrest you if you don't."
That is a lie.
"68. Do not use electricity generated by Hoover Dam.
Never have"
Well, gosh, then don't use power generated by the TVA or any public utility, expeshly oneathemther nukers that's covered by Price-Anderson.
I could play your game and refute most if not all of your justifications for hatin' on the gummint--but I actually have better things to do, like waxing my dental floss.
See, Fat White Man, thing is that all snark aside you'd be in the deep shit if there was no gummint. Gummint don't exist just to help people who willingly pay taxes. It exists to help all, including the freeloaders and the people who don't trust it. I understand that you don't like that, well, it sucks to be you in that case.
"5. Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
DeleteAverage response time for my area is 3 hours - 3 days depending upon the emergency '
Sounds like a complete lie, citation required to convince me that it's not. Do you live in the U.S.?
We live in a county of 640 sq miles that has 2 road deputies on duty at any given time. If you call to report a theft or break-in, it may be 2-3 days before a deputy shows up. 6 months ago, my sister's home was broken into in the middle of the night. Her mother-in-law held the man at gun point for 2 hours. They called 911 three times before a deputy arrived, searched the goblin, confiscated his crack pipe and turned him loose because he didn't have time to take him to jail.
"8. Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
I'd rather not'
But you do so, yes? So your comment is bullshit.
9. Do not use public restrooms.
See number 8"
I didn't say I didn't use public roads, I said I'd rather not since that would means I actually have to go somewhere.
As far as shitting in a public restroom, I would rather not either. Do you really know someone that looks forward to using a public bathroom?
Oh, Fat White Man, I nearly forgot.
ReplyDelete"3. Do not use the internet, which was developed by the military.
Bullshit. Al Gore invented it. He said so."
This is a lie. Al Gore never said any such thing. The meme was invented by the ReiKKKwing.
Even if what you say was true, the gummint still regulates the internet, much as you may dislike that. Try China, you might like the way THAT gummint deals with people they don't like using the internet--unless you're one of the people who they don't like.
I agree with you Democommie.
DeleteI considered fisking (point by point refutation) but on some points I am skeptical of the answers - for example, no ambulance --- seriously? No One EVER in your area has been airlifted to emergency care? And an examination of your local newspaper's police blotter wouldn't show any 911 responses faster than 3 hours? I doubt that.
As to the rest, what FWM is to look at the narrowest possible interpretation of benefit, while trying to ignore that we all benefit from these things - from libraries, to roads, to public schools, to our military and other infrastructure.
If you had to do without all those things, your local grocery stores wouldn't carry anything on their shelves.
You wouldn't have clothing from retail establishments. Have you ever gone to a museum? A park? A sporting event?
FWM's answers are disingenuous and inaccurate. I would argue that in those instances where he does not benefit directly, he benefits indirectly, and much much much more than he acknowledges.
Libertarians like to pretend they are each independent islands onto themselves. They aren't.
Another example - privately developed pharamceuticals? Most companies receive some kinds of funding; all work on not only their own R&D, but scientific peer review. Pretty much EVERY pharm company has scientists who came from academic institutions at some stage - K-12, college, grad school - that exists through government auspices and support; most scientists used some form of student loan/grant/or scholarship that either comes directly from the government or which is supported or subsidized in some way by it - tax exempt status for example. And then there is the testing and licensing required by the FDA -- please, by all means, show me a drug that has been developed that did not go through that process, if you can. You can't FWM. And also show me any drug anywhere that is produced without some governemnt inspection process to be sure the drug is as labeled, and is not contaminated.
Ditto food processing inspections - or restaurant health department inspections - or the absence of major plagues because of public health services, including tracking and containing / quarantine of highly contagious people (see my recent tuberculosis outbreak post).
And YES, we wouldn't have clean air or water without government - perhaps you FWM are unaware of the improvement from dirty air and water days when there was little if any environmental regulation. It wasn't good.
Do you work at this kind of stupidity FWM?
FWM is simply wrong, on pretty much all counts.
Here's another one - do you ever write a check FwM?
DeleteHow do you think checking accounts work? Are you aware of the processing of that check, where it goes, how it does what it does?
How about money - ever see any cash? Do you print and mint your own in the garage? No of course not - another government service.
I love how FatWhiteMan lives in denial about the value of a functional government. Time to find that cabin in the woods, fella.
ReplyDeleteYes, I particularly was struck by his insistence he doesn't like using roads -- ignoring all the things that reach him by roadway.
DeleteLets see him find a place in the woods somewhere that has no territorial boundaries protected by a military, where he can live stoneage style without industrial produced amenities - including communication and broadcasts, and of course without medicines or medical care either. And only consuming his own home grown or hunted food and cloting.
Yeah, that wouldn't last an afternoon. He has a libertarian stone age fantasy. It isn't objective reality. And it would be boring as hell.
He could move to NW Pakistan or Afghanistan, but even they have some form of government.
DeleteYou all have lost all sense of humor and levity. I feel sorry for you.
ReplyDeleteNo we haven't FWM. We laugh; actually, when we chat about blog topics, Laci and I laugh quite a lot.
DeleteWe just laugh at different things than you do.
Nonsense, We have loads of laughs, usually at your expense.
DeleteNo, FWM, we're laughing AT you, not WITH you.
Delete"101. Do not expect to be able to vote on election days. Government provides voting booths, election day officials, and voting machines which are paid for with taxes.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how much that pencil and paper card costs? After we color in our choices with a pencil, we just drop the ballots in a box at the Volunteer Fire Station. What machine?"
Per dog gone's comment, the bulk of Fat White Man's rebuttals to the 101 points made in the original post are either incorrect (deliberately or not) or simply disingenuous.
The one I quote above is simply nonsense. The fact that Fat White Man's voting precint (or the larger district) still uses paper ballots has EVERYTHING to do with the election commission's decisions in HIS state. Most, if not all, areas in the U.S. with large populations use electronic voting equipment including scanners and touch screens. In local, state and national elections poll workers--hundreds of thousands of them in national elections--are employed to ensure that elections are open and fair. I'm sure that Fat White Man thinks that they are unnecessary or that they should work for free. He is, of course, wrong on both counts.
"Per dog gone's comment, the bulk of Fat White Man's rebuttals to the 101 points made in the original post are either incorrect (deliberately or not) or simply disingenuous."
DeleteWrong! Mostly they were deliberately disingenuous.
I have never seen or used a voting machine of any kind. Since I began voting, we have gone from paper ballots with a push pin to paper ballots that you color with a #2 pencil. Both are dropped in a wooden box with a slot in it and taken to the courthouse for counting. I assume, but admittedly do not know for sure, that they have some sort of scanner that they feed the paper ballots into for counting.
Most of my answers were meant to be entertaining--I didn't stay up typing those in and not be entertained while doing so--and for the most part are true. Yes of course we all benefit from government services every day and we've grown to the point of dependence that I would say that most could not function without them. I drive on roads and drop my kids off at the local elementary school. My property taxes increased by 140% to pay for the new school. State school funding only goes so far.
However, for those of you in larger metropolitan areas, don't believe that everything is the same in rural America as what you have. We do have a slow police response time do to a limited budget. Those federal and state dollars do not always filter down as much as you might think they do. We do have an all volunteer fire department (yes, of course we vote a tax levy locally to buy equipment but they operate as a voting membership without much government control. I think they have to file their budget with the village every year but that is about it.) There are no public parks or water fountains and there certainly are no tennis courts. Of course, we are missing some other government "services" too. There are no zoning or building permits. And yes, I did build my own house from bare field to shingles without one government inspection or approval of any kind.
Kinda curious as to WHERE you are in Ohio since I did a search to see where paper ballots were being used.
DeleteI don't think you are in Cuyahoga County.
Someone said that they were in Narnia if I was in the UK.
Well, it sounds as if you are in some alternative reality Ohio since there were loads of articles like this from the 2008 election:
After a recent state review of touch-screen machines that raised concern about them, paper ballots were made available at all precincts for those voters who wanted to use them. Many more voters took advantage of the option than officials had predicted. The shortages of ballots were also caused by an unusually heavy turnout, officials said.
The federal judge, Solomon Oliver, denied a similar request for other precincts in Cuyahoga County, home to Cleveland, and for all precincts in Franklin County, where the capital, Columbus, is located.
According to the Ohio Secretary of State your county (which I am assuming is named after a president) uses two types of voting machines: the Optical Scan ES&S Model 100 and ES&S AutoMark. Neither of these machines are what you describe.
Can we assume the economy with the truth about voting is also true about your failure to depend on governmental services?
As someone who is originally from Michigan, I can say that I was under the impression that Ohio is a backward state, but possibly not as far removed from civilisation as you would make it sound.
I am 4 hours away from Cuyahoga County and Cleveland and 2 hours from Columbus. I am closer to the capitol of West Virginia than Columbus. The closest shopping malls to me is 50 miles away in Barborsville, WV. My county is not named after a president.
DeleteI Googled Optical Scan ES&S Model 100 and I bet that is what we have now. Our voting booths look like this: http://www.ohio.com/polopoly_fs/1.111376.1308957999!/remoteImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_270/image.jpg
You color in the dot next to your choice with a #2 pencil and put the completed ballot in a box. They take them to the courthouse to be scanned.
"We live in a county of 640 sq miles that has 2 road deputies on duty at any given time. If you call to report a theft or break-in, it may be 2-3 days before a deputy shows up. 6 months ago, my sister's home was broken into in the middle of the night. Her mother-in-law held the man at gun point for 2 hours. They called 911 three times before a deputy arrived, searched the goblin, confiscated his crack pipe and turned him loose because he didn't have time to take him to jail."
ReplyDeleteTHAT is not a citation. It is an anecdote. Citations are references to original documents or data. Your paragraph is neither. That you say the deputy simply let the intruder go tells me that he was "known to the authorities" as they like to say in copese. Sounds like something else was going on. A citation ( to, for example, a written, redacted, police report) would clear that up.
"You all have lost all sense of humor and levity. I feel sorry for you."
ReplyDeleteDo not weep for me, Appalachia.
I have a robust (if somewhat profane) sensse of humor. What I don't have is the ability to swallow the bullshit spewed by the MurKKKan ReiKKKwing on, well, everything they talk about.
It would appear from your originall list of rebuttals that you live in an isolated location with no access/connection to many, if any, public services provided by the gummint. Not ASKING for the gummint to help you doesn't mean that your AREN'T benefitting from gummint programs.
Rubbish, I found the website for the county FWM claims to be from.
DeleteI do have to admit to liking fantasy worlds, but know enough about the "real" universe to be able to function.
Official Description of where FWM claims to reside:
X County has been nationally recognized for our quality of life. E M Magazine named the MSA a four-star community for quality of life in its May-June 2006 edition.
The graduation rate of X County high schools is 89%. Approximately 41.5% of the X County Population over the age of 25 has attended college.
I am assuming that is public education.
Carrying on...
X County boasts a business friendly climate in Ohio by being well connected to the market place. Positioned within one day’s drive from about 60 percent of the U.S. population, X County offers Interstate highway, river navigation, railroad, regional airport and high-speed telecommunications access to the world.
FWM, if you only knew how hard I'm laughing at catching you out for being a bullshitter.
Even more amusing the website I got that info from has a Chinese version.
Delete" 1788年始，一批经历过革命战争的军官和士兵在乔治华盛顿将军曾经勘查过得俄亥俄的东南部安顿下来。这些开拓者在新开发的西北部领土建立了第一个永久居住地,而后成为了美国中西部. 今天,在华盛顿郡,我们为组线索开发的新领土而倍感自豪."
Hey, Fat Gweilo, you fucked.
And FWM thought we didn't have a sense of humor!
DeleteWe do, it's just firmly attached to our intellectual curiosity -- I can assure our readers that I laughed out loud at this discovery by Laci.
So......that three days for law enforcement to get to the home invasion, and then they let the bad guy go? Really?
I was skeptical before but now....I believe Laci that should be spelled 'fuct', as in a fake fact on a grand scale --- in this case one where someone is called out on it.
If there are other explanations or details, I will keep an open mind to hear what FWM has to say about this.
But prima facie, it seems the points go to Laci on this.
Take a bow Laci!
Well, we could always contact the county for verification of FWM's claim....
DeleteWhere do you see FWM saying he lives in Ohio? And where did he say what county he lives in?
DeleteJimF, clearly, Laci and I read for a different level of comprehension than you do; we pay attention.
DeleteGo back and look, LOL. Don't expect us to do it for you.
I don't remember how far back it was that I was aware from things FWM wrote that he lived in Ohio. I do remember confirming something of what part of Ohio he lived in back when that idiot let all of his wild animals loose, and the local law enforcement came in and killed so very many of them -- I remember because I was concerned that it might be the area where FWM lived. He elaborated then, and he has mentioned key details on other occasions.
Smart people pick up on details, pay attention to how they fit together, and check, and double check facts. We don't need our information or ideas pre-digested; our brains do that with processing raw information as we find it.
Jim, are you sure you are an engineer?
DeleteYou seem too fucking stupid to me to be able to pour piss out of your boot with the instructions written on the bottom let alone get yourself out of a wet paper bag.
I see you fucking up a contract because you mixed up metric with english.
I forgot, your boss is your father in law.
DeleteBTW, I can translate the Chinese as well!
DeleteOfficial Description of where LACI claims FWM to reside:
DeleteX County has been nationally recognized for our quality of life. E M Magazine named the MSA a four-star community for quality of life in its May-June 2006 edition.
The graduation rate of X County high schools is 89%. Approximately 41.5% of the X County Population over the age of 25 has attended college.
I am assuming that is public education.
Carrying on...
X County boasts a business friendly climate in Ohio by being well connected to the market place. Positioned within one day’s drive from about 60 percent of the U.S. population, X County offers Interstate highway, river navigation, railroad, regional airport and high-speed telecommunications access to the world.
FWM, if you only knew how hard I'm laughing at catching you out for being a bullshitter.
If you only knew how hard I am laughing at you thinking my county is some kind of Mecca of prosperity.
You are incorrect, btw. My county has about 20% living below the poverty level. There is not a single interstate highway in the county. There is a regional airport for personal aircraft. The closest airport with scheduled passenger service is in another state. Some areas have Time Warner internet available. Most internet is 3mb DSL. About 1/3 of the geographical area has no cell service or internet available.
"So......that three days for law enforcement to get to the home invasion, and then they let the bad guy go? Really?"
DeleteIt was 2 hours waiting but they had to call 911 three times.
A friend of mine was a deputy there. He said that if someone reports a crime like vandalism or theft and it is not an emergency right then, they get there to take a report as they can, usually 1-3 days.
One can check Ohio Counties by size here:
Deleteen.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counties_in_Ohio
There is an interstate going N-S
Quick facts:
Housing units definition and source info
Housing units, 2010 28,367 5,127,508
Homeownership rate definition and source info Homeownership rate, 2006-2010 74.7% 69.2%
Housing units in multi-unit structures, percent definition and source info Housing units in multi-unit structures, percent, 2006-2010 13.8% 23.0%
Median value of owner-occupied housing units definition and source info Median value of owner-occupied housing units, 2006-2010 $110,800 $136,400
Households definition and source info Households, 2006-2010 25,373 4,552,270
Persons per household definition and source info Persons per household, 2006-2010 2.38 2.46
definition and source info Per capita money income in past 12 months (2010 dollars) 2006-2010 $22,786 $25,113
definition and source info Median household income 2006-2010 $41,654 $47,358
Persons below poverty level, percent definition and source info Persons below poverty level, percent, 2006-2010 15.2% 14.2%
According to that, your county is not above the US level for those living below the poverty line.
BTW, ranking Ohio Counties by size, there is only one which is in the 600 Sq. Mile range that doesn't have an interstate, but there is a US "Route", which is still a "Highway"
DeleteLocal News disputes your claim about internet and telecoms with a story from 4 Jan 2011 saying residents "could have access to wireless, high-speed Internet access this year." The cellular tower system, constructed six years ago (2005), covers about 97 percent of the County.
FWM - do you live in Washington County, Ohio?
ReplyDeletePay attention Jim; he doesnt live in a county with the same name as a president. That rules out Jackson, Adams, and Washington.
ReplyDeleteLooking at the 8 counties, per the Ohio poverty report, that appears to leave Athens, Scioto, Pike, Vinton, Lawrence, and Gallilea. Of those Scioto, Lawrence and Gallilea appear to be the most likely to fit the other criteria of proximity to Charleston WV and Barbourville.
One of the questions is if the 50 miles is by road (less direct) or as the crow flies (straight line).
I don't want to publish personal information, but given what FWM has told us, I have no doubt that I can easily identify the county by a process of elimination.
So FWM - proceed to solve the puzzle or not? I leave it up to you.
Vinton county has a county airport, but I'm not sure what FWM means by a 'regional airport'...
DeleteAnd, although FWM doesn't specify this but Vinton county is also the single LEAST populous county in the state of Ohio...and doesn't appear to have an interstate highway...
DeleteAnd the size of the county is 414 square miles....
Delete"So FWM - proceed to solve the puzzle or not? I leave it up to you."
ReplyDeleteVinton is close but I think Laci has the correct answer. It is the 600 sqm county that does not have an interstate highway. Our closest interstate is in another state. And yeah, I didn't know there was a "Ohio Poverty Report" but we would definitely be listed on one.
Some websites list just airports while others list those with "regional" airports which are used mainly for private aircraft and have no regular passenger service. I said that not to make it a wild goose chase if your sources just listed "airport" and that led you to think of a regular airport like Columbus, Cincinnati, Cleveland or Dayton.
Laci, I'm not sure what that news article was referring to but if it means an increase in internet coverage for smartphones than that has indeed has improved greatly in the last year. Maybe it was referring to 97% of "homes" but surely not the county. There are great areas of forest with no cell service. Though most of the state highways do seem to have service for the most part, turning up side roads generally loses your signal. No way do homes have that level of coverage for home access for broadband. There are still a lot of areas where broadband is just unavailable yet but I would guess that too has shrunk significantly in recent months.
Scioto County 612 square miles - List of counties in Ohio, Wikipedia.
DeleteBut you said, 640 Square Miles to begin this.
DeleteAlthough, I think you are from a city which is the home of an Astronaut (not him, the other one). Although, Archbold would be likely to have a Chinese Website. But it is more Rustbelt than Appalachia.
Actually, one can come up with all sorts of interesting data on the internet--some of which is of dubious quality.
That was one of the reasons I tried to rely on government verified information rather than other sites.
DeleteSeriously though FWM, while this is fun, if at any time (even if it is because you have a change of mind) we come too close to what you consider personal or identifying information, let us know and we will stop. You deserve your privacy, and we respect that.
I'm waiting to see if he knows Archbold's Chinese Connection!
DeleteI should add there are 25 US Astronauts who call Ohio their home according to NASA.
DeleteThank you DogGone. While I was surprised this thread turned into a game of Where's FWM, I didn't feel that it went too far. But the county is close enough. No Google Earth photos of my farm! :)
DeleteMaybe some time we'll let Laci play "what shire in England my family came from".
It's easy to figure that one out--All you need is love.
DeleteHead down Penny Lane, Pass through Strawberry Fields, and take a ferry cross the Mersey to find my Paradise.
Although, Bradshaw's Guide can help to find my other haunt.
Then again, maybe I'm a real nowhere man.
Naw, I can get better than Google Earth if I want pictures of someone's home.
I should add that the Bradshaw's Guide gets me the most traffic at my real blog.
DeleteSorry about the 640. I was going by memory which appears to be faulty. 614 - 640, close enough!
ReplyDeleteI am not in a city, though. I just live in a township with no tennis courts or public water fountains. I don't know about Astronauts but I do know of one rocket scientist from here. Not famous though.
A version of where's Waldo for grown ups, in a sense.
DeleteBut it wasn't so much about where you were specifically so much as it was about the difference in how Laci and I approach information, looking at detail, noting what fits or doesn't fit, and fact checking.
Too often people just blissfully and blindly accept what they are told; we don't.
I'm a bit surprised you 'don't know about astronauts' though, since Ohio leads the nation in producing astronauts, including three of the most famous:
NASA reports that 23 Ohio natives have become astronauts in the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo and space shuttle programs — more than any other state. Among the best known:
• John Glenn, New Concord: Flew in Mercury program as the first American to orbit the Earth. Went on to become a U.S. senator. After launching Oct. 29 on space shuttle mission STS-95, he became the oldest man in space.
• Neil Armstrong, Wapakoneta: Flew in Gemini 8 and Apollo 11. He was the first man to walk on the moon. Mr. Armstrong was a University of Cincinnati professor from 1972 to 1980. A space museum in his honor is in Wapakoneta.
• James Lovell Jr., Cleveland: Flew in Gemini 7 and 12 and Apollo 8 and 13. Mr. Lovell was commander of the fateful mission featured in the movie Apollo 13, which depicted the near-disaster of the only failed attempt to land men on the moon.
• Judith Resnik, Akron: Flew in shuttle missions STS-41 and STS- 51L. Ms. Resnik died in the Challenger explosion in 1986.
Are you SURE you live in Ohio, FWM? Since Glenn was your state senator from 1974 through 1999, I'd have thought you might recognize at least one of the more well known out of 23. Glenn went back into space in 1998, when it was a big deal because he was old.
How does someone who lives in Ohio miss that kind of thing?
Not just Glenn, Armstrong as well.
DeleteI forgot about the other two famous ones.
i can see forgetting Lovell, people in the US don't remember people who don't make it.
BTW, Archbold, Ohio is home to La Choy Chinese Foods.
DeleteSorry, I misunderstood. I know all about our astronauts and met Senator Glenn a couple of times. What I meant was none were from my county which is what I thought Laci was suggesting.
DeleteLOL - I don't think Laci checked out what counties the various astronauts came from; I know I didn't, other than the one astronaut he referenced (although not by name either).
DeleteIt is a remarkable accomplishment that Ohio has produced so many astronauts. Laci and I were both enjoying some of the unique aspects of your state while playing the Wheres FWM version; although it was much more like Where in the World is Carmen San Diego than where's Waldo.