What do you think, flim-flam man or cracked religionist?
Please leave a comment.
Showing posts with label warren jeffs. Show all posts
Showing posts with label warren jeffs. Show all posts
Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Saturday, January 23, 2010
Polygamy Brings Glory in Heaven
The Houston Chronicle reports on the third conviction of a member of the FLDS.
The last time we talked about these guys, after a number of other discussions, I decided I felt they were child molesters hiding behind religion. Marrying a 16-year-old is perhaps debatable, but the "prophet" himself, Warren Jeffs had taken a 12-year-old bride. That's what swayed me.
What's your opinion? If these sect members are nothing more than middle aged men who receive young girls as rewards, should the State of Texas put a stop to it? It's not like they're stealing their brides off the street or from the public park, the girls are members of the sect and usually going into these "marriages" with their parents' approval.
I noticed an interesting connection between the FLDS belief that polygamy brings glory in heaven and the proverbial suicide bomber's belief that what he does will increase his reward in the afterlife. Do you think that's a valid comparison?
What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
A West Texas polygamist sect member was sentenced to seven years in prison after pleading no contest to sexual assault of a 16-year-old girl Friday.
Michael Emack, 59, of Eldorado, entered the plea in district court to sexual assault of a child, said court administrator Irene Devore. Under Texas law, someone younger than 17 cannot generally consent to sex with an adult.
Emack's plea marked the third sexual assault of a child conviction for a resident of the Yearning for Zion Ranch in Eldorado, said Jerry Strickland, a spokesman for the Texas attorney general's office. Nine other suspects, including sect leader Warren Jeffs, are awaiting trial on charges including sexual assault of a child and bigamy, Strickland said.
The last time we talked about these guys, after a number of other discussions, I decided I felt they were child molesters hiding behind religion. Marrying a 16-year-old is perhaps debatable, but the "prophet" himself, Warren Jeffs had taken a 12-year-old bride. That's what swayed me.
What's your opinion? If these sect members are nothing more than middle aged men who receive young girls as rewards, should the State of Texas put a stop to it? It's not like they're stealing their brides off the street or from the public park, the girls are members of the sect and usually going into these "marriages" with their parents' approval.
I noticed an interesting connection between the FLDS belief that polygamy brings glory in heaven and the proverbial suicide bomber's belief that what he does will increase his reward in the afterlife. Do you think that's a valid comparison?
What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
Sunday, July 19, 2009
Tony Alamo Denies the Charges
Tony Alamo is in the news again. Last September we discussed his case when his compound was raided and he was taken into custody for child sexual abuse. Now, in response to testimony in his trial he has released a statement, basically saying the FBI coerced some of his women to lie. Included in the statement is also a fascinating description of his world view, which to me seems like exactly the kind of admission the prosecution was looking for.
When we talked about the case of Warren Jeffs, I became convinced that he and his men were hiding behind their so-called religious beliefs in order to justify lustful abuse of women and young girls. To me, Tony Alamo seems to be even worse.
What's your opinion? Do you believe that in 21st century America, a man can be sincere in claiming that the proper age for marrying in young girls is the onset of menstruation? Do you think this is something the government should stay out of?
What about polygamy in general? Is there a place for that in society? Does it always have to involve underage girls? Can it sometimes be among consenting adults?
What do you think? Please leave a comment.
The legal age of marriage is puberty. Webster’s Dictionary states childhood is the “state or time of being a child; state or time from birth or infancy to puberty or maturity.”
Webster’s definition of puberty is “the age when one becomes capable to bear children, which is marked by maturing of the reproductive organs, with the onset of menstruation in the female; the period at which sexual maturity is reached.”
The Bible says this as well. God’s Word, the Bible, never condemns a man for having more than one wife!
When we talked about the case of Warren Jeffs, I became convinced that he and his men were hiding behind their so-called religious beliefs in order to justify lustful abuse of women and young girls. To me, Tony Alamo seems to be even worse.
What's your opinion? Do you believe that in 21st century America, a man can be sincere in claiming that the proper age for marrying in young girls is the onset of menstruation? Do you think this is something the government should stay out of?
What about polygamy in general? Is there a place for that in society? Does it always have to involve underage girls? Can it sometimes be among consenting adults?
What do you think? Please leave a comment.
Sunday, June 21, 2009
Polygamy in West Texas
Atlanta's AJC.com has the story.
My first reaction is that this is too much government intervention. Who cares if these people marry young? Isn't our idea of the minimum age of consent a fairly recent convention?
But, when we discussed the case of Warren Jeffs, the founder of this Eldorado compound, I came to a different conclusion. During his trial in which he was convicted of child sex abuse for having arranged marriages between middle-aged men and girls as young as 12, I came to agree with his critics who say it's too abusive to the women. Even if the girls don't know any better because they and their mothers were raised in this type of society, it's still unacceptable patiarchial abuse.
What's your opinion? Is the government going too far in interfering with the lives of these people? Or is this one of those cases where intervention is called for?
Please leave a comment.
Eldorado, Texas —- Until the raid on their compound last week, the women and girls of the Yearning for Zion Ranch spent their days caring for its many children, tilling gardens and quilting, dressed in pioneer-style dresses sewn by their own hands.
But it was no idyllic re-creation of 19th-century prairie life, authorities say. Since last week, they have interviewed members of the polygamist sect looking for evidence that girls younger than 16 were forced into marriages with older men.
Five miles off the highway, beyond a double gate, the group's members live lives that are isolated even for the scruffy West Texas prairie. Their 1,700-acre ranch is like its own city, with a gleaming temple, doctor's office, school and even factories.
My first reaction is that this is too much government intervention. Who cares if these people marry young? Isn't our idea of the minimum age of consent a fairly recent convention?
But, when we discussed the case of Warren Jeffs, the founder of this Eldorado compound, I came to a different conclusion. During his trial in which he was convicted of child sex abuse for having arranged marriages between middle-aged men and girls as young as 12, I came to agree with his critics who say it's too abusive to the women. Even if the girls don't know any better because they and their mothers were raised in this type of society, it's still unacceptable patiarchial abuse.
What's your opinion? Is the government going too far in interfering with the lives of these people? Or is this one of those cases where intervention is called for?
Please leave a comment.
Saturday, April 18, 2009
After Warren Jeffs, Abuse Still Rampant
Arizona State University's on-line news site published a very disturbing article by Melanie Kiser about the abuse that continues still in Colorado City, Arizona. This is the home of Warren Jeffs’ Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. On November 20, 2007 he was sentenced to 10 years to life in prison and has begun serving his sentence at the Utah State Prison. The charges against him included sexual conduct with minors and incest. Wikipedia has a good overview of Jeffs' story.
It has now become clear that with Warren Jeffs' incarceration, the abuse which is endemic in the polygamous system has not ended in Colorado City.
Also present at the lecture at Arizona State University was Flora Jessop.
Flora Jessop grew up in Colorado City, Arizona and was raised in a polygamous family, with two mothers and twenty-seven siblings. After years of abuse, she fled her family and faith and became one of the few women to get out alive. Today she works as a social activist helping other abused women and children escape polygamy.
What's your opinion? Is this a legitimate set of religious and social customs that the government has no business meddling in? Where do we draw the line? When does child abuse and domestic violence behind closed doors become everybody else's business?
If polygamy were practiced among consenting adults, would it be wrong? In theory, couldn't it be done properly?
How widespread do you think this is? Colorado City is a town of 10,000. There are other towns, mainly smaller, but there are probably hundreds of them throughout Utah, Arizona and Colorado. So, it's fairly widespread, don't you think?
I'll tell you what I think. As much as I find government intervention distasteful, and only would suggest it in the most urgent matters, I believe the government is justified in trying to put a stop to these abuses, first through legislation and then if necessry through forceful intervention.
When we spoke about Jeffs before, I said I thought he and his friends were using their religion to justify child abuse, like in the marrying of a 12-year-old and in the general abuse of underage women, as described above by Flora Jessop. I think the same kind of abuse continues in these isolated communities. I suppose the temptation is too great for men to resist, but whatever the explanation, I believe it's time it was stopped.
What do you think? Please leave a comment.
It has now become clear that with Warren Jeffs' incarceration, the abuse which is endemic in the polygamous system has not ended in Colorado City.
Among the peculiarities of the town are birth defects unheard of anywhere else in the world, a female life expectancy of 32 years, black trucks that follow outsiders around everywhere and a baby cemetery, said Rep. David Lujan, D-15, in a lecture on Monday night at ASU’s Sandra Day O’Connor College of Law.
“Colorado City is a town with a population of less than 10,000, yet they have a baby cemetery that extends over two acres,” Lujan said. “Just an inordinate number of baby graves for a town that size. But that’s not even the most stunning thing. You see a lot of graves that are either dug up or unmarked, and so many where the headstone indicated they died years ago, in 1997 or something, yet there is fresh dirt on the grave.”
Also present at the lecture at Arizona State University was Flora Jessop.
Flora Jessop grew up in Colorado City, Arizona and was raised in a polygamous family, with two mothers and twenty-seven siblings. After years of abuse, she fled her family and faith and became one of the few women to get out alive. Today she works as a social activist helping other abused women and children escape polygamy.
Jessop provided some books as examples of what the community’s children learn in homeschooling. Lujan read aloud from one titled, “Sisters Are Eternal Friends,” which he said refers to sister-wives (other wives of a woman’s husband).
“These sisters do not have bad tempers. They are always sweet to one another,” one page said. Another stated, “Father is the master of the house.”
“Keep sweet no matter what — it’s a matter of life and death” is a motto in the FLDS, she said. “And they mean it. You cannot have emotions.”
The competition to be perfect and the favorite causes constant arguing between sister-wives, Jessop said.
“I didn’t come out of polygamy hating men — I came out of polygamy hating women,” she said. “It took me 16 years after getting out of Colorado City before I could trust a female. That’s why you don’t see a more united front.”
Girls raised in the FLDS cannot be friends with their birth sisters, have girl friends or share confidences, she explained. They are taught from birth that their only friends are their sister-wives, and after marriage, even private contact with one’s own mother is forbidden, she said.
“So often people think that Warren Jeffs is behind bars and all is well in the world,” Lujan said. “But the abuse continues.”
What's your opinion? Is this a legitimate set of religious and social customs that the government has no business meddling in? Where do we draw the line? When does child abuse and domestic violence behind closed doors become everybody else's business?
If polygamy were practiced among consenting adults, would it be wrong? In theory, couldn't it be done properly?
How widespread do you think this is? Colorado City is a town of 10,000. There are other towns, mainly smaller, but there are probably hundreds of them throughout Utah, Arizona and Colorado. So, it's fairly widespread, don't you think?
I'll tell you what I think. As much as I find government intervention distasteful, and only would suggest it in the most urgent matters, I believe the government is justified in trying to put a stop to these abuses, first through legislation and then if necessry through forceful intervention.
When we spoke about Jeffs before, I said I thought he and his friends were using their religion to justify child abuse, like in the marrying of a 12-year-old and in the general abuse of underage women, as described above by Flora Jessop. I think the same kind of abuse continues in these isolated communities. I suppose the temptation is too great for men to resist, but whatever the explanation, I believe it's time it was stopped.
What do you think? Please leave a comment.
Thursday, January 8, 2009
Canada Prosecuting Polygamists
CNN reports on the landmark case in British Columbia Canada in which the government has decided to go after the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or FLDS.
However, in discussing the famous case of Warren Jeffs a few months ago, I came to a conclusion. Perhaps it shouldn't have taken me so long; my only excuse is my deep distrust of the Feds.
I believe these are, in many cases, middle aged men who are hiding behind the facade of church and religion to act out their lustful pleasures. Warren Jeffs married a twelve-year-old. I'd be interested to hear the ages at the time of marriage of the 19 wives of Mr. Blackmore.
What's your opinion? The pro-Mormon site, Messenger and Advocate made a big deal about the fact that Canada supports gay marriage but opposes polygamy. Do you think that's a valid comparison? I believe their idea is that homosexuality is an abomination, while polygamy practiced within their church is blessed. How does that work for you?
Please feel free to comment. The commenting policy on this blog is very easy to live with.
Two leaders of a Canadian polygamist sect were arrested Wednesday and charged with polygamy in what could be a landmark case, said Wally Oppal, attorney general of British Columbia.The immediate reaction on the part of many, myself included, is this is too much government interference. It's not so much that I buy into that "religious freedom" argument, as much as I just don't feel comfortable with the federal government butting into people's private lives.Winston Blackmore, 52, and James Oler, 44, were taken into custody in Bountiful, a western town of about 1,000 residents, Oppal said.
Blackmore has married 19 women and Oler married five, the official said.
The men are members of the polygamist sect known as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or FLDS church, he added.
However, in discussing the famous case of Warren Jeffs a few months ago, I came to a conclusion. Perhaps it shouldn't have taken me so long; my only excuse is my deep distrust of the Feds.
I believe these are, in many cases, middle aged men who are hiding behind the facade of church and religion to act out their lustful pleasures. Warren Jeffs married a twelve-year-old. I'd be interested to hear the ages at the time of marriage of the 19 wives of Mr. Blackmore.
What's your opinion? The pro-Mormon site, Messenger and Advocate made a big deal about the fact that Canada supports gay marriage but opposes polygamy. Do you think that's a valid comparison? I believe their idea is that homosexuality is an abomination, while polygamy practiced within their church is blessed. How does that work for you?
Please feel free to comment. The commenting policy on this blog is very easy to live with.
Friday, September 26, 2008
Tony Alamo Arrested
In Flagstaff Arizona, Tony Alamo was arrested on charges related to a child porn investigation, according to CNN. We discussed him last week when his Utah compound was raided. Perhaps the arrest comes as a result of information gathered in the raid.
Alamo was charged under a federal statute with having knowingly transported a minor across state lines with the intent to engage in sexual activity...
I really don't see how evidence supporting that could have come from the raid. At this point, I don't feel very convinced that the government has a good case against him. Perhaps it'll turn out like the Warren Jeffs story, and more and more information will reveal Alamo to be a true predator, but so far, I don't see it.
I believe what's often lost in cases like this, is the founding principle that he's innocent until proven guilty. I don't understand how people are so quick to condemn someone at the first mention of child sex abuse, when we have so much evidence lately that the government oversteps its bounds whenever it wants to. The FBI and law enforcement people have been known to fabricate charges, exaggerate facts and railroad people. I'm waiting for more facts to be revealed.
At the site called Cranium Creek there isn't much more than copied and pasted sections of the CNN stories, but by the title of the post, "Another Preacher Gone Wrong," you can get the author's opinion. The commenter pulls no punches.
On the Maybe It's Just Me blog, there's a post with a witty title, "Someone did Lay Hands on Tony Alamo" There's the cryptic line, "Well, I guess God heard my cry."
What's your opinion? Is it too early to write old Tony off? Apparently, he's a big Catholic basher, describing himself as the "completed Jew." Some might want to credit him for that.
Alamo was charged under a federal statute with having knowingly transported a minor across state lines with the intent to engage in sexual activity...
I really don't see how evidence supporting that could have come from the raid. At this point, I don't feel very convinced that the government has a good case against him. Perhaps it'll turn out like the Warren Jeffs story, and more and more information will reveal Alamo to be a true predator, but so far, I don't see it.
I believe what's often lost in cases like this, is the founding principle that he's innocent until proven guilty. I don't understand how people are so quick to condemn someone at the first mention of child sex abuse, when we have so much evidence lately that the government oversteps its bounds whenever it wants to. The FBI and law enforcement people have been known to fabricate charges, exaggerate facts and railroad people. I'm waiting for more facts to be revealed.
At the site called Cranium Creek there isn't much more than copied and pasted sections of the CNN stories, but by the title of the post, "Another Preacher Gone Wrong," you can get the author's opinion. The commenter pulls no punches.
On the Maybe It's Just Me blog, there's a post with a witty title, "Someone did Lay Hands on Tony Alamo" There's the cryptic line, "Well, I guess God heard my cry."
What's your opinion? Is it too early to write old Tony off? Apparently, he's a big Catholic basher, describing himself as the "completed Jew." Some might want to credit him for that.
Wednesday, August 20, 2008
Warren Jeffs, Polygamist and Sex Offender
Warren Jeffs is back in the news. Jeffs is the former Prophet of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS). Last month he was convicted of child sex abuse for arranging marriages between underage girls and older men. His own child bride has been put in foster care.
A 14-year-old girl allegedly married to jailed polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs with her parents' blessing at age 12 was ordered back into foster care Tuesday by a Texas judge.
I posted about this before here and here.
I'm still somewhat ambivalent about this case. On the one hand, government intervention in the lives of citizens concerns me. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. These folks claim to be living their lives according to their understanding of what's right and wrong. Their religious and cultural beliefs allow for arranged marriages with very young girls, not unlike many societies throughout history.
On the other hand, we're living in the 21st century. Treating adolescent girls as nothing more than breeding machines and assigning them to middle-aged men as rewards, which I'm guessing is the way it works, is shabby behaviour to say the least. I think the tendency to be lustful, which many men deal with, would run riot in a society like that. Perhaps this has always been the case throughout history in any culture where these attitudes prevailed. Today there are laws against polygamy and having relations with underage girls.
UPDATE
Top story today is there are more indictments coming.
A 14-year-old girl allegedly married to jailed polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs with her parents' blessing at age 12 was ordered back into foster care Tuesday by a Texas judge.
I posted about this before here and here.
I'm still somewhat ambivalent about this case. On the one hand, government intervention in the lives of citizens concerns me. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. These folks claim to be living their lives according to their understanding of what's right and wrong. Their religious and cultural beliefs allow for arranged marriages with very young girls, not unlike many societies throughout history.
On the other hand, we're living in the 21st century. Treating adolescent girls as nothing more than breeding machines and assigning them to middle-aged men as rewards, which I'm guessing is the way it works, is shabby behaviour to say the least. I think the tendency to be lustful, which many men deal with, would run riot in a society like that. Perhaps this has always been the case throughout history in any culture where these attitudes prevailed. Today there are laws against polygamy and having relations with underage girls.
UPDATE
Top story today is there are more indictments coming.
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