What is it with these shot-up signs? I've seen them a hundred times, and I'm a city boy. In rural parts of North Jersey and Pennsylvania, these bullet-ridden signs are ubiquitous. I imagine if you add up all the blasted road signs in all the rural areas in America, we'd be talking about hundreds of thousands or rounds of ammunition, or millions, perhaps.
Who do you think is doing all that shooting? Is it ghetto kids who like to get out of the big city for a country drive? Is it illegal gun owners, perhaps drug dealers or mafia guys? I don't think so. I think these are your regular lawful gun owners, usually the hunting types. I picture them drinking beer, hanging out the passenger side of moving vehicles, shooting at signs or anything else that strikes their fancy.
Most of these signs are indeed in rural areas, far removed from other roads or homes, but not all. I'll bet a certain percentage of these poor signs are within shooting distance of a parallel road or even a residence. Of course, there could always be other people in the background. Is this what the gun apologists call responsible behaviour? Does this comply with the Four Rules of gun handling?
What percentage of gun owners occasionally engage in this kind of diversion, do you think? It must be higher among hunters, wouldn't you say? Does this kind of thing represent a danger? Is it OK to do it?
Do concealed-carry gun owners approve of this kind of shooting? Do these country "cowboys" who shoot up the road signs give the rest of you a bad name? What do you think?
What motivates someone to do this anyway? It's hard for me to be objective, of course, but I think this kind of behaviour indicates a mental problem.
What do you think?
Never seen one m'self. And I've lived pretty far off the beaten path.
ReplyDeleteAnd destruction of public property is a crime...as is discharging a firearm withing 200 ft of a Paved public road.
Of course here in Boston they shoot PEOPLE, I find that a bigger deal, m'self.
A few years ago a friend and I were returning from an outdoor gun range where we had just finished shooting a box ( 50 rounds) of ammunition for our semi automatic pistols. As any gun enthusiast will tell you, it is much nicer to shoot outdoors in the fresh air than in some indoor shooting range.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, on the back from home to the suburbs in s. Florida my friend still wanted to have some fun with his weapon, so on a not so deserted road in the middle of the day, my friend emptied a half a clip into a road sign. In addition to being on a semi populated road, I could see houses in the distance.
Ironically this friend is considered a successful and good guy where he lives because he is now married, owns a house, and has a steady job.
This incident shows how guns can bring people to do stupid things. I am thankful that no one was hurt in the incident and that my hearing was not effected.
Mike,
ReplyDeleteThis is vandalism and a crime as stated.
No, concealed carry holders and most gun owners don't approve of this type of behavior.
Any more then normal people approve of drunk driving....but how often does that happen?
What percentage, of the otherwise law abiding, folks you know have driven drunk?
It is dangerous to shoot the signs.
I picture the people doing it as mostly as younger people, definitely immature no matter what age doing it.
Your prejudice is showing again in how you picture them.
Mike,
ReplyDeleteJust thought of something.
Are you interested in this from the crime angle or just the anti-gun position?
How about we compare vandalism crime; graffiti versus shot up signs.
How much does it cost to clean up/ replace it, how often does it occur, how often is other violence associated with the crime?
I, for one, have never heard of gun owners shooting each other because someone else shot their sign but I have read of taggers shooting each other for doing that.
It seems that you excuse crime, but not when it involves firearms. Maybe the people shooting the signs have substance abuse problems, maybe their were abused as children and are acting out their rage.....might that make them victims in your world view?
We could start a 12-step program for them...1st step, unload the firearm (he,he)
Making amends at least would be easy...just replace the shot up signs.
What motivates someone to do this anyway?
ReplyDeleteI'll take a stab: because it's there. In rural Ohio road signs, especially those warning of deer, are often blasted clean through. The power of a gun, especially in the hands of an adolescent or a fully-grown man stuck in adolescence, is endless. He the man if he has a gun.
"This incident shows how guns can bring people to do stupid things."
ReplyDeleteNo, this shows how even people who are considered 'smart' can do stupid things from time to time.
Weer'd, Are you seriously saying you never saw a road sign with a bullet hole in it?
ReplyDeleteHey here in rural France it's a traditional thing. It adds to the ambience to have a rusty hunting sign with a couple of bullet holes in it.
ReplyDeleteI think it's pretty normal behavior for someone to take a potshot at a rusty sign...It's a statement, but not really even that...It's like shooting at cans,,,people just do it.
In other words, I don't see anything innately evil about it, it's just human nature with a gun its hand.
I think it's pretty normal behavior for someone to take a potshot at a rusty sign [...] it's just human nature with a gun its hand.
ReplyDeletei've said this to mike in the past, but it seems to hold true for you too: you must run in some scary, aberrant social circles.
shooting up anything human-made (or not, for that matter) that just happens to be convenient is NOT normal human nature, firearm or not. regular, mature, law-abiding adults do not act that way. it's the sort of thing you might see a drunken juvenile delinquent do --- the sort of thing that can and should get a wayward teenager spanked by his or her father in the hopes of getting them back in line, quite frankly.
such behavior is criminal vandalism. and given how road signs are usually mounted, it's horrendously negligent use of a gun, too --- you'd almost never have a safe backstop for such a shot.
i think i've seen exactly one shot-up road sign in my life, and like weerd, i've lived in some serious rural backwaters; i do now, for that matter.
Just to stir up the pot:
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many of those shot up signs are in close proximity to larger cities?
Nope, Never seen a single one, Mike.
ReplyDelete"road signs, especially those warning of deer, are often blasted clean through. The power of a gun, especially in the hands of an adolescent or a fully-grown man stuck in adolescence, is endless."
Muddy, I can put a screwdriver through a roadsign without much difficulty. Sheet steel is hardly armor plating.
Durring a charity shoot I put a bayonet from a 50+ year old Russian infantry rifle through the door of a 1980s Dodge Ram pickup. Didn't take much effort at all. Your definition of "endless" is quite different than mine.
But of course not to decend into the troll-bog that I chastise you for, I will openly admit that firearms do supply a good deal of power to the user. That's the whole point! If they didn't they'd be worthless as defensive tools.
http://weerdbeard.livejournal.com/475124.html
I don't think it's mental illness --just immaturity that prompts this sort of shooting--and it is risky/dangerous.
ReplyDeleteMudrake said they do it" just because it's there." And to that I'll add, "Just because I can."
It's target shooting for kicks --and it is vandalism --hooliganism --juvenile immaturity that some never outgrow --as one of you pointed out.
Yea that's it, I run in some scary abberant social circles, now go hide under your bed.
ReplyDeleteMicrodot,
ReplyDeleteVery much the wrong threat to the pro-gun crowd.....bad idea, very bad idea.
don't go blaming me, microdot. i'm not the one who's blithely describing dangerous, irresponsible, and childish vandalism as though it were perfectly normal behavior. "just human nature" were your words, even; certainly seems to me like you think that sort of hooliganism is no more than to be expected.
ReplyDeleteall i'm doing here is pointing out that, no, not everybody is a mindless hooligan, that in fact responsible adults just do not act in this way you seem to take so entirely for granted. don't come whining as if i was being unreasonable when that is simply not so.
"Yea that's it, I run in some scary abberant social circles, now go hide under your bed."
ReplyDeleteHe knows some people in France who actually fight back first BEFORE surrendering! ; ]
Sorry, Had to play the Mud_Rake card.
Carry on! : ]
All right, everyone pretty much agrees this is not the best behaviour. I feel as strongly as Nomen, who described it as "the sort of thing you might see a drunken juvenile delinquent do." The problem is it's not only drunken kids doing this, is it? Even Weer'd who's never seen one might be able to imagine that it's a bit more widespread than that.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that in the comments on this blog I've been led to believe that legitimate gun owners are of the highest levels of responsibility and character. I've been told that they must be for failure in these areas is too costly. I've made numerous failed attempts to suggest that although this may apply to the small sampling of commenters we have the pleasure of knowing here at the Mikeb roundup, it does not apply to all.
The only question, once again, is what percentage of you guys is reckless, immature and dangerous? Add that to the percentage of you guys that suffers from untreated depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, that has suicidal tendencies or homicidal tendencies, that suffers from rage attacks.
I know, I know, "show me the stats," you cry out. Well, the stats I offer are the ones you come up with using your own common sense and honesty. Go ahead. Tell me all of that adds up to less than 1%. I dare ya.
Mike,
ReplyDeleteThe only question, once again, is what percentage of you guys is reckless, immature and dangerous?
The same percentage of "you guys" that are reckless, immature and dangerous. Why do you separate yourself from the group?
You are a car owner, ask yourself the same questions about drunk drivers.
You are male, ask yourself the same question about doing idiotic "Hey Bubba, Watch this" type of activities.
The percentage is no more or no less for gun owners then it is for the rest of population.
I'm never said that all gun owners are legitimate gun owners are of the highest levels of responsibility and character
but as a whole we don't see gross levels of irresponsibility.
Hells Bells Mike, there are over 65,000,000 gun owners. If we are all as irresponsible as the few, and you have to admit it is a very few that shoots up signs, no place in America would be safe!!
Stop trying to portray gun owners as more irresponsible or juvenile then anyone else.
Add that to the percentage of you guys that suffers from untreated depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, that has suicidal tendencies or homicidal tendencies, that suffers from rage attacks
Again, the same percentage of folks are out there driving 2,000 pound weapons on a daily basis....and you are fine with that, aren't you?
Heck, some of the same people probably drive semi-rigs...20,000 pound weapons.. The same people operate cranes in the middle of down town, work with dangerous chemical.
What would you rather have; somebody with rage and a gun or somebody with rage working at a Union Carbide plant ala Bhopal?
Get off your kick trying to prove that gun owners are more irresponsible and more dangerous then everyone else. Either that or put some facts up to show that we are!!!!!!!!!
Just because you "feel" something is true doesn't make it.
A person could "feel" that all expats living in Italy are child molesters....is it true?
Well, the stats I offer are the ones you come up with using your own common sense and honesty.
Lets say it adds up to 15% of the population, the simple question becomes - Does the illegal actions of others cause us to loose our rights?
Let's continue with the ex-pat child molester theme. After all, common sense says there most be a reason why people move overseas and away from America.
Since I feel there is a problem with these child molesting ex-pats and you can't prove that less then 1% are causing the problem. The solution is to make it harder for you to be alone with children.
How about we impose some common sense and "reasonable" restrictions?
Maybe all ex-pats living abroad must wear bright orange jumpsuits all the time?
How about if you want to visit your children, you'll have to get permission from the government?
What precautions shouldn't we put in place...after all "it's for the children"?
See how ridiculous what you are trying to do is?
You are saying because any number of people misbehave, all the rest should be punished. This isn't grade school, there are already laws that cover it.
People drive drunk, probably more often then people shoot up road signs, should we restrict all the peoples' right to drive?
" Even Weer'd who's never seen one might be able to imagine that it's a bit more widespread than that."
ReplyDeleteNope, I've never seen one, and I've been in lots of places where there was lots of hunting and lots of guns.
So I'd say your assertion sounds like total bullshit, and that it must be MUCH lower than 1%
So where are we now? Your logic says there's lots, mine says there's none. What do we do now?
This is the point where grown-ups use statistics and data.
Do you want to be a grown-up Mike?
Bob said, "The percentage is no more or no less for gun owners then it is for the rest of population." I agree.
ReplyDeleteBob said, "Get off your kick trying to prove that gun owners are more irresponsible and more dangerous then everyone else." I've never done that.
I think you've finally stopped resisting my idea that a certain percentage of gun owners are not the kind of people you'd want to trust with a gun. You put it at 15%. Good. You very rightly pointed out that you wouldn't want to trust these people with cars or household chemicals either, but Bob, what you keep forgetting with these weird comparisons of yours is, we aren't talking about those things, we're talking about guns.
We're talking about finding a way to make guns less prevalent in violent crime. Perhaps we've made good progress today in getting your agreement on this. You're not so unreasonable after all. I don't care what Mud Rake says.
"We're talking about finding a way to make guns less prevalent in violent crime."
ReplyDeleteUseless if overall violent crime goes up or is unchanged.
WE'RE (gun owners) are trying to make violent crime go down as a whole.
I'll repeat Bob's question that you dodged. "Do you care about crime, or about guns, Mike?"
Weer'd,
ReplyDeleteI think Mike did answer, not directly but he did answer
cars or household chemicals either, but Bob, what you keep forgetting with these weird comparisons of yours is, we aren't talking about those things, we're talking about guns.
Mike, hate to tell you this but one of the biggest mass murders in U.S. History wasn't accomplished with guns but with household chemicals.
You've prove, through your words, that are interested in controlling people, not crime.
Firearm related crimes are only 10%, --One Tenth of all violent crime....but we aren't talking about that....we are talking about guns according to you.
I didn't say that the percentage of unsafe people was 15%. What I said was
Lets say it adds up to 15% of the population,
That was a hypothetical assumption. What you refused to do was answer the question:
the simple question becomes - Does the illegal actions of others cause us to loose our rights?
Traffic accidents, vehicular homicide, drunk driving, speeding, etc kills over 47,000 people each year....50% more deaths then caused by firearms. And that 30,000 deaths includes firearms.
So, if you are interested in saving lives, wouldn't you also propose stricter regulations on cars?
Where is your call for increasing the minimum age to drive a car? If we "can't" trust someone to own a pistol until 21, why not the same age for a car?
(by the way...my 18 year old qualify as Marksman at Boot Camp, but he can't be trusted with a pistol yet)
How about background checks on private sales of cars to make sure no alcoholic is buying a car when (s)he shouldn't be?
See the correlation is there, you don't want to see it...you want to control people.
What do we agree on, Muddy accused Weer'd and I of never agreeing on anything wit you?
Do we agree people have a right to own firearms?
Do we agree people have a right to use firearms in self defense?
Do we agree people should have a right to carry those firearms in public, for self defense?
:-) Do you notice that after you buy a new car you start seeing more and more of the same cars on the road? The amount of them has not actually increased but your awareness of them has.
ReplyDeleteI have never seen signs like that but I am sure I will see them from now on.
I have to admit I like some graffiti, and in a way I kinda like these shot up signs. They don't make me nervous or angry. They don't evoke any feelings in me that would make me want to control people who embelish them.
Mr. Potato,
ReplyDeleteMaybe if the graffiti was on your property and you were fined for not cleaning it up you would feel differently. Especially if it was the 3rd, 30th, or more times that you've been hit.
Maybe you would feel different if the graffiti was marking the area as part of a gang's territory...a place you have to live.
Graffiti isn't always a harmless prank. It is costly, it is vandalism, it is an intrusion into other people's rights.