Gun violence has always been an issue, but in the last ten years, I've watched it become more of an epidemic. It has grown to a new and frightening level. In some communities, murder and shooting of youth is to be expected.
When we take a closer look, we can see that the NRA is the lobbyist for gun manufacturers -- but not for gun owners. It's really about business. It's like the tobacco industry. Eventually, that industry started targeting younger and younger people.
The gun industry reaches an astounding number of illegal consumers -- and many of them are young. For example, I can go to any high school in the city and students will say they know where they can find a gun. Without a doubt, the gun industry has promoted the kind of easy access to guns that makes this possible.
These are points we've debated plenty, but what Father Pfleger suggests as a solution you don't hear every day. He says there's a great majority of silent people who are either too frightened or too apathetic to speak out.
I believe there are enough people out there to support laws that mandate universal background checks on guns, limit the number of guns people can purchase, and make sure other key gun control laws are passed. But we need to hear from them.
Perhaps he feels like Bryan Miller. Through advocacy, or education, as I call it, the voters can be persuaded to pressure their representatives to make the right laws. It happened in New Jersey. Perhaps it can happen in Illinois as well.
What's your opinion?
Ah yes. 'Father Pfleger', the same individual who threatened the lives of store owners and legislators.
ReplyDeleteHe needs to believe that there are people supporting him because it's not occurring in real life. Take a look at how many supporters he had at the 2A Freedom Rally held in Chicago:
http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15585&st=120&start=120
Hundreds showed up in support of the 2A. Thousands showed up for IGOLD:
http://daysofourtrailers.blogspot.com/2008/03/numbers-game.html
Snuffy was nowhere to be seen.
Why isn't Pfleger calling out his buddy Rev. Jessie Jackson who was by his side while the cameras were on but disappeared the minute they were turned off?
I sent this to the good reverend:
"Sure, I'll support more gun laws for you, as soon as you write the names of every family member and neighbor that belongs to a gang and has a gun hidden on a sheet of paper. Let me know when you're done and we'll hold a joint press conference to name names and start to really bring the cycle of violence to an end."
He never responded.
Here's the thing about Snuffy. The real criminals he wants the community to see as the enemy are part of the community. They are the sons, daughters, friends, uncles, etc. of the people who are not turning them in now. The 'community' is wearing "Stop Snitchin' " shirts in courtrooms to keep people from testifying. The 'community' is telling the police they didn't see a thing when crimes are committed on their streets. They're not going to start turning them in because he offered them a measly five grand. That's not worth their life. Really. Look at how many mothers you see on TV crying out about their "good boys" being killed when they were lifelong criminals with a record a mile long?
Be honest w/ yourself. Snuffy's not going to go after "gun runners", "straw purchasers", or anyone else who is committing actual crimes in his 'community'. He's going to continue to harass legitimate businesses and haranguing about the evils of guns.
Because otherwise he'ld have to force his congregation to look in the mirror.
Not going to happen in Ill. Mike.
ReplyDeleteIt happened in NJ (barely I might add) because decades of draconian restrictions drove pro-gun, pro-freedom folks out of the state. That makes it even harder for those who stay to oppose further gun control.
MikeB,
ReplyDeleteI can find a large number of people...probably a majority that feels anti-freedom, pro-ignorance liberals like yourself shouldn't be allowed to speak in public about curtailing our rights.
So, should the majority be allowed to control what the minority says and does?
NO.
My rights are not subject to your feelings or desires. My rights aren't subject to your fears.
But we need to hear from them.
We are hearing from the people...and pro-firearm support is increasing, NOT decreasing.
Maybe "Snuffy" Pfleger isn't the best choice for an anti-gun advocate you could have found.
Cardinal Francis George has taken an unusual step: issuing a statement about the Archdiocese of Chicago’s activist priest, the Rev. Michael Pfleger, for comments he made at an anti-gun rally.
“We’re going to snuff out John Riggio,” Pfleger told the estimated 200 people at the rally. “We’re going to snuff out legislators that are voting against our gun laws
Do you agree that people should be talking about killing business people and our elected representatives?
The funny thing, Mike B, is that the Illinois freedom-haters like Snuffy Pfleger are losing ground in Illinois. Granted, we on the pro-rights side have a very long way to go, but the direction things are moving is away from Snuffy's dream of citizen disarmament tyranny.
ReplyDeleteWhen he manages to be honest with himself, he knows it, too, and he hates it--hates it, Mike B, to the extent that he lets the pacifist facade fall far enough that he can't stop the death threats to which Thirdpower referred from coming out.
Can there be any greater honor than to be despised by the despicable?
Mike, Snuffy Pfleger? Surely you can do better than that hate monger as a source.
ReplyDeleteMikeB...
ReplyDeleteYou did realize before you posted this that the pastor you cite called for the murder of legal business owners as well as the murder of members of congress who didn't align themselves with his agenda, right?
Are you aligning yourself with someone who openly advocates the murder of members of congress???
I'm just wondering because the DHS might be interested in info like that.
What is your position on murdering sitting members of congress?
Any non-response will be viewed as an endorsement and will be reported to the proper authorities.
I don't think Fr. Pfleger meant "snuff" in that way. I just don't believe it and I don't think you guys do either. You're trying to sensationalize his remarks in order to demonize the man. Isn't his "anti-freedom" position enough for you, do you have to pick up on one stupid expression and repeat it a thousand times on the internet since 2007?
ReplyDeleteI don't think Fr. Pfleger meant "snuff" in that way.
ReplyDeleteAh--I see that you're familiar with Snuffy's "I used the word 'snuff' repeatedly in a speech without knowing what it meant" defense.
Very convincing.
If I said that I wanted to snuff out you and your family...
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think I mean?
I have a great idea everyone. Let's treat guns like we treat drugs! We all know drugs kill thousands of people each year, so we have taken to making them illegal. They are still allowed to be used in some medical applications and research (I had a professor who regularly injected cocaine into rats). But in those cases the government strictly controls them and sometimes even does random inventory checks.
ReplyDeleteThink about it, these policies have been so effective that there is hardly any drug use now ... oh wait, I am living in a fantasy again. Maybe instead we should blame Europe for their lax drug laws being the cause flow of drugs to the US. In fact, I bet that 10% to 30% of businessmen and tourists who have gone to the Netherlands brought back some MJ and Angeldust in their bags.
"I just don't believe it"
ReplyDeleteBut you 'believe' anything put out by the 'gun guys' and Josh Sugarmann, paid advocates for gun control.
Howabout the part where he said he was going to go to the houses of legislators and 'disrupt their lives like guns have done in Chicago'?
Was that not a threat?
Why is he not calling for the families and friends of the Chicago gang bangers to stop covering up crimes?
Let's all buy a plane ticket to Europe and snuff out MikeB. Let's snuff out his wife. Let's snuff out his children...
ReplyDeleteLet's snuff out all members of the United Nation who oppopse the "Bill of Rights."
What is your interpretation of these statements?
Checkmate.
MikeB...
ReplyDeleteYou have 24 hours in which to distance yourself from advocating the murder of sitting members of congress.
After that, I will report you and your threats to the Dept. of Homeland Security.
Times up! I know that I previously said 24 hours, but a threat this grave prompted me into action right away.
ReplyDeleteI have reported you to the DHS and the Secret Service and interpol that you openly endorse assasinating members of congress and Obama.
You can forget about due process, My word is all that is needed.
Have fun getting raped in Gitmo.
But don't worry too much, I could be joking.
kaveman, That's enough, I mean it.
ReplyDeleteAbout Snuffy being unaware about what "snuff" means (but for some reason used the word, repeatedly, in a very public setting); as someone pointed out to me once before, how likely is that, for a Catholic priest, of all people? With all the candles, and candle snuffers that are part and parcel of Catholic ceremony? Unless you want to try to tell me that Pfleger was under the impression that Mr. Riggio was on fire, and he simply wanted to help him out, by extinguishing the flames, please get out of here with this claim that he thought that "snuff" meant something other than kill.
ReplyDeleteFrom Veroferitas,
ReplyDelete"That's enough, I mean it."
That's the same thing Pfleger's Altar Boy said after the "Father" finished covering his face.
I still want to know where his buddy the good "Reverend" Jessie Jackson disappeared to. You know, after all his claims about how important it was to stop the violence in Chicago.
ReplyDeleteOh, right, he's competing w/ Al Sharpton to be the spokesman for the other Jackson family since that's where the cameras are.
I wouldn't be surprised if he did do it on purpose to get a rise out of people. But, I don't believe he meant it literally or that you believe that. The fact that you keep saying you do is another example of the way you argue. You seize on any and every point of contention, even if they detract from the real point.
ReplyDeleteDid you ever hear the expression during a sports activity when someone says, "he's gonna murder him." It was that kind of thing.
But, why is it not enough for you to argue against his position, his gun control stance? Why must you insist on taking these quotes and putting all the focus on them. They're beside the point.
You do the same with Helmke and diaz and even with me. Attack the guy's character by taking something he said literally and repeating it over and over. It's shabby and tedious.
I wouldn't be surprised if he did do it on purpose to get a rise out of people.
ReplyDeleteNow that's interesting--"he did it on purpose to get a rise out of people." Isn't that what people--people with whom you seem to agree--accuse Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, the NRA, and others of doing? Isn't that exactly the kind of "toxic hate speech" to which the "shared responsibility" crowd likes to assign partial blame for violence?
Granted, it's not exactly the same--Snuffy was much more direct in calling for violence than I've ever seen from the above mentioned folks.
Snuff's just lucky noone decided to listen to him. The family of the victim would have had a grand time suing him and St. Sabina's.
ReplyDeletePoor Mikeb. First you say we should listen to these people then you tell us we shouldn't take them literally when they say things you don't approve of.
Make up your mind.
By the way, Mike B, I've written before about the assertion that Snuffy didn't know what "Snuff" means (I'm actually kinda proud of that one--I seem to have trouble matching that quality of writing these days--but I digress).
ReplyDeleteNow you posit that perhaps his hate speech wasn't made out of ignorance, but was motivated by a desire to "get a rise out of people."
His spokesman, however, says otherwise (the old "he didn't know what 'snuff' means" excuse). I don't know about you, but to my way of thinking, a spokesman doesn't make that kind of claim without having been instructed to make it (he can hardly have been surprised, after all, by questions about what Snuffy had meant--that answer had to have been planned). That would mean that if, as logic dictates, and as you yourself admit is a distinct possibility, Snuffy did know what he was saying, and did so to "get a rise out of people," he lied (through his spokesman) to the press (because if Snuffy's spokesman lied, Snuffy lied).
And if that's the case, don't you suppose that it would make sense for people who find themselves forced into an adversarial relationship with Snuffy to point out that he is a liar, and that everything he says is thus suspect? Are you arguing that it's "shabby" to point out that one's adversary lies when it suits him?
45, I don't know if I said it's "shabby" to call him out for lying. I said it's beside the point. The point is there are too many guns, the availability of which contributes to the violence. Better and more universal gun control laws can remedy that situation. These are the points. How much time and effort do you want to spend on what he knew about the word "snuff" and what he meant when he said it? It's beside the point, man.
ReplyDeleteIt's beside the point, man.
ReplyDeleteWrong. If I can demonstrate that a leader (even a self-appointed one) in the opposition's camp is a liar, it's a point I would be very foolish to not go to great lengths to make.
Besides, how about my point about the "Snuff" talk and "hate speech"? The Brady Campaign, NYT columnist Bob Herbert, Jesse Jackson, and undoubtedly many others I'm not thinking of right now, condemn the NRA's (and Bill O'Reilly's, Rush Limbaugh's, etc.) "hate speech" ("hate speech" that was rather mild compared to calling specifically for the "snuffing" out of businessmen and legislators)--I haven't noticed you calling that "shabby."
"Better and more universal gun control laws can remedy that situation."
ReplyDeleteWhich explains why ISLAND nations have shown increases in gun crimes afterwards.
Right?
Basically you're saying that everyone needs to be punished because a miniscule minority of the population are unable to control themselves.
Thirdpower,
ReplyDeleteBasically you're saying that everyone needs to be punished because a miniscule minority of the population are unable to control themselves.
Yet, MikeB won't stop using his computer or camera because some low lives have mis-used theirs.
If he is unwilling to give up his 1st amendment right...why should we give up our 2nd amendment rights, eh?
Quote of the Day on Snuffy:
ReplyDelete"So... the deep thoughts and penetrating insights in this ICHV piece are from a guy who went to an ISRA/Illinois Carry rally with a sign complaining about the NRA, which wasn't even a sponsor or participant in the rally?
My, quite the perceptive one.
Wonder if he knows what horizon the sun comes up in in the morning."