But it's the Indianapolis Star investigation that has most recently joined the parade.
Examining just two counties in the Hoosier State, the Star found 456 examples of people with concealed carry permits granted by the state whose applications were actually recommended for disapproval by local Indiana police.
The report found permit-holders with convictions for battery, resisting law enforcement, felony DWI, criminal trespass, and other crimes.
After receiving their permits, some went on to hold their families hostage at gunpoint, threaten police officers during a domestic disturbance, be convicted for selling cocaine, and be convicted for felony criminal confinement and battery, among other incidents.
What's your opinion? Is something wrong in a country that allows this kind of thing to go on? What could account or it?
How does this impact upon the requirement of doing a background check before buying a gun? Is a concealed carry permit holder excused from that? Is it presumed that if he has a license to carry a gun he must be able to pass the background check?
What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
My response is...WTF? They set up a process to make sure this type of thing doesn't happen, and they freaking can't follow the process?
ReplyDeleteThose counties need to be ponying up the reasons for not taking the police recommendations. Many of the listed offenses would prevent them from legally even buying a gun, much less carrying one.
But...you ask "Is something wrong in a country that allows this kind of thing to go on?" No, there's something wrong in the COUNTIES where this is going on.
The problem with the COUNTRY is the confusing mishmash of seemingly random rules and laws about firearms. If there were a standard consistent set of laws at a federal level, it would make things much easier, from streamlined processes (instead of 51 different processes), or laws so confusing that those who are supposed to enforce them can't even keep track.
Well, if the government won't follow their own law what can we do about it? Pass another law?
ReplyDeleteA few states allow their CCW to stand as a background check in lieu of a NICS check. I don't think Texas and Florida do that but I am not sure about Indiana.
If anything, this makes a good argument for getting rid of the licensing scheme all together.
ReplyDelete1. Criminals will carry guns with or without a license, making licensing useless in stopping criminals.
2. People who aren't criminals at the time they get their license, but "snap" and become criminals aren't stopped because they can pass the background check.
Hey some people don't wait for permits or background checks to break the law....what should we do about people like that?
ReplyDeleteAztec Red, I have to disagree with you on licensing and registration. The fact that a criminal doesn't register the firearm is what makes it a tool for law enforcement. The DA can say that the gun wasn't registered and get their prosecution.
ReplyDeleteThat also goes to Bob S's comment.
I won't debate the registration process, especially since DC's was a reason many people didn't register firearms. Can't say "is" since I have no personal knowledge how it is these days. I don't really want to get into that since that would be a large debate and really not the place here.
Yes, that does create a large underground of gun owners. Those gun owners usually don't get caught unless they do something stupid.
And I shouldn't be siding with the prosecution, but it is a tool they use quite effectively.
I agree with cj as well "confusing mishmash of seemingly random rules and laws about firearms. If there were a standard consistent set of laws at a federal level."
IS Heller the harbinger of such a scheme?
cj, I do have to admit to having the shocking thought after pouring over the firearms case law at USAO-DC that DC could become the new Vermont if there were a clearer civic right SCOTUS case.
ReplyDeleteAs I said, I am not sure where Heller is going in other posts. And I am not sure I like it
"456 examples of people with concealed carry permits granted by the state whose applications were actually recommended for disapproval by local Indiana police."-MikeB
ReplyDelete"Those counties need to be ponying up the reasons for not taking the police recommendations."-cj
This is very simple to understand guys.
Indiana is a "shall issue" state.
Police recommendations mean diddly squat.
If you don't understand the difference between "shall issue" and "may issue" then you should educate yourself before commenting further.
Kaveman brings up a good point:
ReplyDelete"Shall issue" unless there is something incredibly wrong with the person, they have to issue a permit. No editorial comments here!
OK, I did make a joke once that Laci had a permit to carry issued in PA on a board (I even doctored a real permit for that--censored of course). I'll let you imagine the reaction.
"May issue" the permit does not need to be issued if the agency issuing feels there is reason not to issue.
NJ is "may issue" and is next to impossible to get a permit per Evan Nappen (who should know). According to Evan, you need to know someone.
"Aztec Red, I have to disagree with you on licensing and registration. The fact that a criminal doesn't register the firearm is what makes it a tool for law enforcement. The DA can say that the gun wasn't registered and get their prosecution."
ReplyDeleteIt's already illegal for a criminal to be in possession of a gun. A lack of licensing or registration is not needed to prosecute.
kaveman:
ReplyDelete"456 examples of people with concealed carry permits granted by the state whose applications were actually recommended for disapproval by local Indiana police."-MikeB
I don't know if you were attributing those words to me, but they were taken from the article, that's why they appeared in green with the quotation marks.
Thanks for the clarification that Indiana is a shall issue state. I knew that, actually, and I knew the difference between shall issue and may issue.
What I don't know is how the police recommendation could be ignored even in a shall issue state? Isn't the police recommendation a sort of background check that these 456 should have failed?
So Laci, you're a rabid anti-gunner who doesn't believe in an individual right to keep & bear arms yet you own guns and have a CCW?!
ReplyDeleteWhat a hypocrite!
I realized the green text was not yours, I was speaking in a general sense.
ReplyDelete"What I don't know is how the police recommendation could be ignored even in a shall issue state? Isn't the police recommendation a sort of background check that these 456 should have failed?"
There is no police recommendation portion of the background check process in a shall issue state.
It.does.not.exist.
Each state has it's own nuances. This is the process I went through in Oregon, which is also a "shall issue" state.
ReplyDelete1. Paid $50 for a 5 hour safety class(after spending 25+ shooting/collecting).
2.Took class certificate to county sherrif and gave them $15 and got fingerprinted/photographed.
3. Sent $50 to the state sheriff.
4. Background check performed at county level.
5. Background check performed at state level.
6. Background check performed at federal level.
7. Background check performed at global level through Interpol.
8. All background checks free from any disqualfying factors.
9. Received my permit 46 days after I visited the county sheriff.
10. Carry a concealed firearm legally.
One of the interesting nuances is that most shall issue state stipulate that you may carry only ONE concealed firearm(handgun). Oregon does not stipulate this so I'm free to carry as many hundguns
as I want.
Oregon is also an "open carry" state which means any non-prohibited person over 21 can carry firearms out in the open without any sort of license or permit.
Hope that helps you appreciate the process.
kaveman, That's absolutely fascinating. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteWhat did you mean by "shooting/collecting" in the first line?
For open carry do you not need to do any of those things? If the cops see someone openly carrying how can they tell if he's not a prohibited person?
How are more laws going to fix the problem when the problem is a lack of enforcement of the laws already on the books?
ReplyDeleteAlso, when has any criminal decided "hey, I think I should try and get a CCW permit if I want to carry my gat?"
They don't give two shits what the laws are on concealed weapons. They carry anyway.
I park in a bad area of town and have seen people I know to be drug dealers carrying guns. (they were printing badly) I'd bet money that not one of those guys had a Delaware CCDW permit.
"What did you mean by "shooting/collecting" in the first line?
ReplyDeleteFor open carry do you not need to do any of those things? If the cops see someone openly carrying how can they tell if he's not a prohibited person?"
I got my first gun at the age of 12 as a Christmas gift. It was my Father's Marlin bolt-action .22 rifle. The same rifle I had been trained with and shot under his supervision since age 6. So basically 6 years of safety training before I could call it my own.
I've been collecting guns ever since. I used to hunt but I don't really anymore, I prefer fishing. Mostly just target practice at the range or on my property.
As long as someone is not prohibited from owning a firearm at at least 21 years of age, you may carry a rifle, shotgun or handgun openly, which is defined as clearly visible.
If an LEO sees someone open carrying, they do not know if they are a prohibited person.
Truth be told, the age requirement(21) for open carry was not even enforced where I lived when I was 12 nor where I live now.
The day after Christmas, I strapped the rifle to my back, hopped on my BMX bike, rode about 5 miles to my favorite shooting spot and spent all day plinking.
I did this quite often and would occassionly ride past a cop. They didn't even blink. We were rural, I grew up on a small farm, the cops in the area didn't see anything unusual about a 12 year old riding down the road with a gun.
Hell, there were times when there were 5 or 6 of us, all with guns, riding together down the highway.
No big deal.
There was one time I was asked by an LEO about open carrying when I was 13, I'll tell you about it when I have some spare time.
How does the number "456" compare with the descriptive term "thousands"?
ReplyDeleteInquiring minds want to know.
Inquiring minds also want to know the total number of permits issues, so that we may know whether 456 is 50%, 10%, 1%, or 0.1%.
Until we know those numbers, we don't have a good handle on the size of the problem.
I'd like to know the percentage here. Indiana has a very high licensing rate--I think it is the second highest rate in the US, and a significant population.
ReplyDeleteWe may be talking about a tiny fraction of a percent failure rate, pretty good for government. It also doesn't mean all that much-Many of those crimes prohibit possession of a gun, so carrying is moot.
My Indiana experience was long ago, pre-NICS. At the time they had a 10 day wait for a handgun, but waived if you had either type of handgun license.
"There was one time I was asked by an LEO about open carrying when I was 13, I'll tell you about it when I have some spare time."
ReplyDeleteI said I'd tell you about this, so I will. You might get a kick out of it.
Keep in mind that what I was doing was technically illegal, even though I didn't realize it at the time.
My favorite shooting spot/stomping grounds was an abandoned WW2 army base just a few miles from where I grew up. Only the building foundations remained but there were miles and miles of paved roads in this old base, which had since been turned into a wildlife preserve. You can google "Camp Adair Oregon" if you're interested in the history of the site.
So I decided to go plinking one afternoon by myself; something I had done dozens and dozens of times before.
Just me, my .22 rifle and a pair of binoculars.
My Father taught me to never shoot anything that I didn't intend to eat, with the exception of non-native species.
The binocs were for scoping out starlings, a non-native bird.
So I'm tooling around and stumble across about 15 cops. I saw them but they didn't see me. As I was hoofing through the brush, I decided to climb a tree to get a better view.
So here I am about 20 feet up in a tree scoping these cops out while holding a rifle.
There were other people there, another 15 or so, as well, just looked like normal civilians to me.
The cops were taking turns chasing down the civilians; their squad cars verses some old beat up muscle cars.
I couldn't really understand what I was seeing.
Cop would chase down suspect and pull him over. Then the cop would handcuff and frisk the "bad guy" and search his car. Then the cop would take the handcuffs off the dude and hand him a cup of coffee and they would both start laughing and high-fiving each other.
Truly bizzare. I watched for a long time.
Finally one of the cops spotted me up in the tree and made a hand gesture for me to approach them, which I promptly did.
Fully loaded rifle still slung over my shoulder, I walked to within 10 feet of the cop who spotted me.
He asked me what I was doing.
I responded that I was trying to figure out what you all were doing.
He chuckled a bit and explained.
This was a training exercise for new recruits enrolled in the police academy. Every one there was a cop. The ones in uniform were green recruits, while the ones dressed as civilians were the veterans conducting the training.
I then chuckled a bit as it all made perfect sense now.
They gave me a donut and advised me that this probably wasn't the safest place to be right now since they were moving on to more advanced exercises involving the cars.
The said that I should go home for my own safety.
So I thanked them for the donut and went home.
Never never never did they ask me for my rifle. Never did they ask me to put it on the ground. Never did they ask my age(I was obviously not 21).
Their main concern was for my safety. They didn't view me as a threat.
With the vision of hindsight on this incident, I recall a certain pleasure in the eyes of the vets.
They were training rookies how to be always alert for the unexpected while using common sense and I provided the exclamation point for the day.
Here I was, at the age of 13, carrying a firearm in a wildlife preserve, surrounded by 30 cops...
and eating one of their donuts.
They did refuse to give me any coffee without my parents permission.
What is America coming to?
Wonderful story, kavamen. I loved it.
ReplyDelete