"If you lawful gun owners were constrained by law to lock up your guns at home, that wouldn't lessen the number of guns stolen each year? Please answer that question straight up, yes or no."
To elaborate a bit, the question was put to Greg several times to no avail. Whenever he's faced with a difficult question, one whose answer would prove him wrong in an earlier comment, he dodges and obfuscates the situation to the point of tedium. His earlier comment which prompted my question was this:
"Mikeb, what I've said to you is that your proposals would disarm good people without removing guns from bad people."
My idea is that if safe storage were mandated by law, most gun owners would comply. They would go out and buy the gun safes that many of them have been intending to buy anyway. Being motivated by the legal requirement, they would comply. They are law-abiding after all.
The other part of my thinking is that of the half-a-million guns stolen each year, very few of them were locked up in gun safes. They were kept in night-stand drawers or closet shelves, some under the pillow or mattress. Thieves come in and pick up the guns like picking ripe fruit off a tree. When a burglar is confronted with a locked safe he sometimes has the time and tools to break into it, but not always. In many cases, perhaps most, his priority is to silently take what's available and get out as quickly as possible.
The result of this one simple gun-control law would be quite the opposite of what Greg said in his hysterical attempt to defend his threatened freedom. NO good people would be disarmed and MANY guns would not end up in the hands of bad people.
Dec, 27, 2013, Jackson Tennessee: "AR-15 stolen in home burglary": http://www.wbbjtv.com/news/local/AR-15-Stolen-in-Home-Burglary-237727591.html
ReplyDeleteGreat.
And in Nashville we have a man whose guns were stolen from his home taking to Craigslist to whine about how the cops won't do anything: http://southernbeale.wordpress.com/2013/12/26/tennessee-gun-report-33/
Gotta wonder about how responsibly these things were stored in the first place.
And you know what the gun-rights fanatics are concerned with, that we don't blame the victim. Our commenters are really into that one. By insisting on safe storage as a way of thwarting theft, I'm blaming the poor persecuted gun owner.
DeleteSouthern Beale, I lived in Nashville for a decade and moved away in January of 2009. I'm curious to know if I ever met you.
DeleteIf you had ever met the great one, surely you would know.
DeleteNot necessarily. I knew a number of women there who could be Southern Beale.
DeleteIt's important to highlight and expose these lies. O course, guns being safely locked up cannot cause harm. I have to wonder how dumb people are who leave guns out for their kids to kill themselves, or others, and it happens all the time.
ReplyDeleteMikeb, as I've told you many times, when you ask for simplistic answers to complex questions, you can't reasonably expect "yes" or "no" as a reply. Here again is my answer:
ReplyDelete1. It is the right of a property owner to do as he or she pleases with that property. If I want to leave gold bars lying in my front yard, that's my right. It would be foolish to do so, but my right.
2. A thief is solely responsible for theft in the moral sense, and the same statement should be true and generally is in the legal sense.
3. In states where "safe storage" laws already exist, we see people routinely not locking up their guns--as you point out here in your articles.
4. You, Mikeb, have mocked gun owners who do take measures to secure their guns, and you refuse to tell us what you regard as sufficiently safe.
Given all of this, I have no reason to believe that "safe storage" laws would do measureable good. What I do see is an attempt to price gun ownership out of reach of many people--showing again that you side with the rich and powerful over ordinary citizens.
Greg, your list contains the usual combination of bullshit and nonsense. 1. Gold bars are not used to kill people, so the comparison you made is stupid. 2. No one denies that the thief is responsible for his actions, but why shouldn't the gun owner he held responsible for his? 3. The fact that people don't obey the laws is no reason to not have those laws. 4. I have "mocked gun owners who do take measures to secure their guns?" Really?
Delete1. Property is property. Your magical thinking leads you to believe that guns can only be used to murder innocents, but that's false.
Delete2. If a gun owner kills an innocent person, then the owner is responsible. But when my property is within my property, it's the thief's sole responsibility for stealing it.
3. A law has to have a reasonable chance of being obeyed to make sense. Prohibition was a failure on those grounds. And a law has to punish actual harms, but owning a gun on my property isn't a harm. The thief is solely the one who does harm.
4. Look at the things you post about gun stores that are broken into.
Property is not property. There's a big difference between Nancy Lanza's AR-15 and her toaster. Guns are especially dangerous if misused, that's why responsible gun owners lock them up when they're not in use and that's why responsible gun owners wouldn't object to safe storage laws. But we know from your bizarre ideas that you're anything but responsible.
DeleteYour definition of responsible is what is bizarre.
DeleteSo says the beer-brewing gun nut who thinks all gun control laws infringe on his freedom and that no law would ever reduce crime.
DeleteSays the man who loves to exaggerate things.
Delete1) Wrong, there are may laws which limit what you can and cannot do even on your own property. Check city, State, and Federal ordinances.
ReplyDelete2) Wrong, if you don't take proper precautions, then you are negligent. Car insurance companies won't pay for articles stolen from your car, if your car was not locked.
3) People still kill, even with laws against murder. People sill steal, even with laws against stealing. Can we get rid of those laws because they continue to be broken? Laws punish illegal and dangerous behavior in hopes of changing societies behavior on a particular issue.
4) I have not read Mike mocking gun owners who use "safe" gun procedures. Please cite those statements.
Greg said:
" I have no reason to believe that "safe storage" laws would do measureable good."
What's your measure of good? Is saving one life, not worth reasonable and Constitutional safe gun storage laws? How about 100 lives, or 1,000 lives?
I guess since you misspelled a word (English professor HA HA HA HA) your whole comment is worth shit anyways.
The fact that you won't even support simple things like gun safes, shows you care little for human life, and deserve not to be listened to. I know many hunters and gun owners, they support the use of gun safes. In fact, just yesterday I helped a hunter carry his new gun safe inside his home. I won't call you the names many others do on this site, but they seem well deserved.
Sally, I figured you to be a sockpuppet troll, but thanks for verifying that.
Delete1. Laws and rights are two different things. It's the job of the law to defend rights, but too often, that's not done.
2. Did you notice how I said in the moral sense? Again, there are plenty of stupid laws.
3. Murder is wrong. Owning guns is not. And storing property is not a moral issue.
So you do live up to your reputation.
DeleteA name calling lying cowardly criminal.
Thanks for proving that.
I will address you the same as the others on this site from now on.
The sock puppet jack ass, is you.
Time to get back to the NRA board meeting Ted Nugent.
"Sally, I figured you to be a sockpuppet troll, but thanks for verifying that."
DeleteBrwahahahahahahahahaha
Greg, you are something else.
Sally,
DeleteHere are just some of Greg's (I call him a lying cowardly criminal) statements I posted before with some bonus at the end. I guess you have been initiated, the liar calls everyone against more murder with guns, a sock puppet, and that's just the beginning.
Greg's statements on ignoring, breaking the law:
Greg Camp November 4, 2013 at 2:39 AM
When the law is unjust, it is no law at all. Home invasions are a violation of privacy, and yes, I call these actions invasions, "legal" or not.
So you decide which laws you will follow, or not? Sounds like breaking the law to me.
________________________________________________________
Greg Camp October 5, 2013 at 5:56 PM
Mine gets carried concealed. And yes, if I ever have occasion to go to Starbucks, it will be with me.
This was after Starbucks asked their customers to leave their guns at home. Seems another example that Greg will defy anyone's rules and regulations.
_________________________________________________________
Greg Camp October 8, 2013 at 6:31 AM
I think the United States should invade California and impose regime change on that failed state.
I'd say that's a promotion for breaking the law.
_________________________________________________________
Greg Camp October 5, 2013 at 5:54 PM
Stupid rules require increasing cleverness to circumvent.
Seems he's actively looking for ways to break the rule of law.
________________________________________________________
Anonymous September 8, 2013 at 3:52 PM
Some people would call assaulting a drug dealer civic minded.
Greg Camp September 8, 2013 at 5:17 PM
Agreed.
I would call it a thug assaulting another person. Call the cops.
_________________________________________________________
Greg Camp September 9, 2013 at 4:45 PM
In an ideal world, beating up someone is the wrong action, but we don't live in an ideal world, and I have more feeling for the friend struggling with addiction than I do for the dealer.
It would be one thing if this happened in front of you, but you said you would go looking for him. Doesn't sound like a law abiding citizen to me.
_________________________________________________________
Greg Camp August 30, 2013 at 8:07 AM
I've said it before: He should be given a lethal injection of boiling lard.
That's not what the law prescribes. Greg has his own ideas.
________________________________________________________
Greg Camp August 27, 2013 at 8:27 AM
Revenge is justice. This man is a traitor and a terrorist. He deserves a far more gruesome death than our law allows.
Going outside the law to get his bloody revenge. Revenge is not justice.
_________________________________________________________
Greg Camp August 20, 2013 at 5:53 PM
When the law makes no sense by banning or restricting something that should not be covered by law, good people don't expect such foolishness or resist the violation. The responsibility lies with the criminal legislators and executives who push these laws in the first place.
Blame the people. They elected these criminals into office. You change law in a civil society, not ignore, or break it.
________________________________________________________
These kind of statements can only be read as the author having disregard for the law, promoting illegal acts, and clearly stating he would participate in such illegal behavior.
New:
Recently the site liar (Greg) agreed that comparing a Mayor to the Holocaust was fine, because he asked for detailed information from the gun makes that wanted to sell to the city.
Last week the coward said it was just fine for him to drink alcohol while using his gun.
A real cowardly, lying, criminal thinking, antisemite, bigot.
Great hillbilly! Start calling people names right away. What a jerk!
DeleteA sock puppet troll liar? The only troll here is you. You make ridiculous statements showing criminal thinking and lies, then won't answer questions about your statements. That's a troll. As you described Ted Nugent before; you are glad his statements take people's focus off the issue. That's what you do.
DeleteI don't trust you to quote anyone accurately, so you've have to provide a URL to the source, especially since you're lying once again about me.
DeleteProve I'm lying about you. I only reprinted your words. I've been waiting for you to prove I'm lying about you for months, but no response from the criminal lying coward.
DeleteThanks Steve. I got the point before you posted, but did not know how bad he was until I read some of these statements. No one listens to a lunatic and one reason the votes will change against the loonies of the gun world. .
DeleteGreg, you oughta really stay away from any thread that includes those quotes of yours. You deny their accuracy and demand links, proving what a loser you are in this discussion.
DeleteMikeb, I've said many times that I'd be glad to discuss any of those, but I insist on a link to the original conversation to verify the quote and to see the context. But it's a characteristic of your side to demand that we believe whatever you claim, instead of offering proof.
DeleteThen give it as part of your response. Whatever you think Steve left out, post it.
DeleteThe burden of proof is now on you. Steve gave your own words as his proof.
That's fair.
Your URL crap is what proves you are a cowardly liar.
In this case your memory needs help, you can't even recognize your own words and verify if they're accurately copied and pasted. In other arguments you boast about how good your memory is and, to give credit where credit is due, you pull out some amazing details for long ago arguments.
DeleteYou're busted Greg. Your inability to let go is making you look worse and worse. Keep it up.
Mikeb, I have offered to discuss any comment you or the trolls care to name, provided that we all can go look at the original in its context. When I challenge one of your statements, I frequently provide exactly that in support of my claim. But the truth is that your side is too lazy or cowardly to participate.
DeleteListen to the crying LOSER lying coward.
DeleteHA HA HA HA HA HA HA
I think that this entire folklore of law-abiding gun owners vs. bad guys is simply a false premise. There really isn't that much that separates the criminals from the kooks who own guns for God knows what ridiculous reason. Prominent twentieth century theologian, Mick Jagger had it about right. "Just as every cop's a criminal, and all you sinners saints! If we can believe that even republicans and libertarians want the same things that good liberals want, just for less people, it is very easy to believe that most criminals care about their families and friends and wish to do no harm to others.
ReplyDeleteLaw abiding gun owners and criminal gun owners are first cousins.
DeleteBullshit, both of you.
DeleteBullshit is what the site lying coward gives us everyday.
DeleteA police officer I once spoke to here in Oregon, who had been on the force for decades, said that he had processed uncounted numbers of cases of guns stolen in his time, and not one of them had been locked up.
ReplyDeleteThe two most common reasons that the gun guys give me for not responsibly locking up their guns are: 1) It's too costly, and 2) it takes too long to unlock the guns, thus letting the criminals shoot/rape/kidnap them first.
Total bullshit. A gun-owning friend of mine has a handgun safe box with a fingerprint-activated lock that literally opens in a second, and it costs less than the cost of your average handgun. You can keep the gun loaded in it, and no one but you can open it. Example:
http://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/fingerprint-gun-safe
Even the old cable-type lock can be opened in seconds, and the gun loaded in a couple seconds more.
So, I say in most cases where gun owners have had their guns get into criminal hands or the hands of their kids, they are 100% responsible and should be prosecuted for it.
Absolutely. Only lying idiots could deny what you say.
DeleteTypical attitude of the control freak: Punish good citizens as a distribution of responsibility.
DeleteSo we punish good citizens by having laws against crime? Great criminal mind at work.
DeleteRequiring you to put your guns in a gun safe when not on your person is punishing you? Please explain.
DeleteIt is a property owner's right to decide what to do with the property. Now if a gun owner leaves a gun available to a child and that child is harmed, that likely should be a criminal offense, depending on the circumstances. But no property owner should ever be held responsible if a thief steals that property.
DeleteSome people like the site lying coward criminal bigot antisemite are to stupid to know what the proper thing to do is, so we must force him to do the safe thing to protect the rest of us from his negligence. He doesn't care about killing people because of his stupidity, so the rest of us have to.
DeleteI should also add that the states that mandated safe storage of guns in homes with children (Child Access Prevention Laws) saw a huge decrease in the number of accidental shootings and suicides involving children AND adults. See here: http://kidshootings.blogspot.com/p/child-access-prevention-laws-save-lives.html
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link.
Delete