arma virumque cano (et alia)
"The Carrying of Firearms Strictly Prohibited" - Dodge City, 1878 after a theater shooting #gunsense #p2 pic.twitter.com/c9fBCVqNsQ .— US Gun Violence (@usgunviolence6) January 31, 2015
"The Carrying of Firearms Strictly Prohibited" - Dodge City, 1878 after a theater shooting #gunsense #p2 pic.twitter.com/c9fBCVqNsQ .
It worked then, why not now?
A murder rate of 165/100,000 is what you call "worked"?http://cjrc.osu.edu/homicide-rates-american-west-randolph-roth
Did it work then? Any proof besides a sign?
TS, what we would need to see is the murder rate in Dodge before the ban and the murder rate after. That would be a good comparison. I'm guessin' it went way down.
Guessing, as usual. This is a matter of having restrictions on carry in town, and constitutional carry outside of town. Hardly what you'd call "proper gun control" and certainly there are many many modern examples of that not working today.
I'm guessin' it went way down.You're "guessin'"? Sounds to me a whole lot like the scientific method used to generate your "50%" figure for "unfit" gun owners.
I read the link TS, that (165/100,000) was nothing more than a guess either.
Not a guess- it's an estimate. There's a difference.
Not a guess- it's an estimate. There's a difference.Well, there is in most people's dictionaries. Not in Mikeb's.
It's BS which you cannot stand on for certainty, yet, you do.
Oh, there's definitely a difference between a guess and an estimate, but what's funny is you guys accept the latter with no proof but reject the former.
Why is that funny? Your guesses are pulled out of your rear, while this estimate is from an academic paper where a team of scholars researched an issue, derived an estimate based on data from their findings, and published a peer reviewed paper. Why shouldn’t that carry more weight than a MikeB guess?
What's funny is you gun loons basing your position on guesses. It's all you got.
So gun loons, what did work? How did we stop people from shooting and killing in the streets of the Wild West?
"What's funny is you gun loons basing your position on guesses. It's all you got."Actually, I would be very interested in seeing what information you have on Dodge City's (or Tombstone's) historical murder rates to continue this discussion- especially if you have access to something better than academic estimates. Please provide. If you got more, do share.
I used the numbers YOU gave TS. There are no other FACTUAL numbers. Another example of why using statistics is just a dishonest diversion.
This line of yours: "And history tells us gun shot deaths in Dodge City did go down, so it worked..."What FACTUAL numbers are you basing this on if they don't exists?
Again, I used the numbers YOU cited. Take your BS elsewhere.
You mean the numbers which you also just said are not factual? Why do you keep saying murder went down in Dodge City if it is not based on anything factual? And still, I don't see anything in the link I provided about murder rates going down. Where did you get that part from?
Yes, they are not factual numbers, but you insist they are and keep using them so I threw them back in your idiot face.
You did the very first post on this thread. You said Dodge City's murders went down after this carry prohibition went into place. This was before I posted the OSU link regarding Dodge City's high murder rate by today's standards. Where did you get your information from? Provide your source.
"It worked then, why not now?"That was my first comment. I used no numbers. I read History. Can you read at all?
"It worked then, why not now?"That was my first comment." Yes Sandra, and I gave you two modern day examples of it being tried and not working. Of course, you didn't like hearing that, but it is what it is.
Can I read what? Cite your historical document source so I can read it.
And as I said SS, the comparison 150 years apart is a false a comparison. And, Heller is a 21st century opinion and Dodge City broke no Constitutional law in banning the carrying of guns. Glad I could clear that up for you. Done. TS, I guess like other gun loons on here you claim to know, but obviously don't know and haven't even read History. I'll leave you to your own self discovery. The fact that you lied about what I said shows you got nuthin.
“And as I said SS, the comparison 150 years apart is a false a comparison.”Yeah, I’d say the modern example is a whole lot more relevant.“I'll leave you to your own self discovery.”Ok, it’s pretty clear you can’t back it up. I provided sources for my information, but we’re supposed to take sumdude on-the-internet’s word that you once read somewhere in billions of words on US history that gun control in Dodge City worked. But hey, like I said before, if you want to bring Dodge City/Tombstone style gun control to today, I will concede that as a compromise. One gun control laws is all we need. You must have permission from the local authorities to carry on your person- with services for checking weapons where carry is prohibited. Done. Everything from the NFA onward is to be repealed. I don’t know about other gun rights supporters, but I’ll take may-issue permitting to get rid of every other piece of gun control ever written.
Enough with your BS, TS. I used YOUR figures for the debate and then you deny them. Good for you, as I said they were guesses, not facts. Now on with your dishonest garbage.
I denied nothing from the figures I linked to. You just made up that it had data in it to support your case, when it did not.
Why do gun loons lie?
Well, lets look at two modern day cities that have similar restrictions. DC for example. Granted, they have just recently issued a whole eight carry permits to residents, but its still effectively zero. Violent crime rate? Not good, in fact, I believe its the highest in the nation. Or perhaps Chicago prior to its issuing permits to citizens just a year ago. And of course, they didn't have many worries back then about those pesky civil rights that we've come to cherish these days.
As son as you disarm the citizens of DC then maybe a comparison can be made. If no one in DC had a gun could there be any gun violence? Dodge City had one theater shooting and they banned guns, we have multiple public place shootings and can't even get a magazine capacity law passed. That's a good comparison of citizen action, or in action.
This was not a ban on guns- just a carry restriction. It's just a "gun free zone", something which we have plenty of today. I also doubt it was an absolute carry restriction, but more like May-issue permitting.
Well, they did in fact do that for a long period with a handgun ban, until of course, it was found to be unconstitutional. You remember, that little thing called Heller? But if you look at crime statistics, it didn't work. Notwithstanding Heller, Dodge City's law banned carrying guns in public, not possession. So its exactly like DC's laws which effectively bans carry also. And we can easily see how that's working for them.
And history tells us gun shot deaths in Dodge City did go down, so it worked, it wasn't illegal, and made for a safer, less dangerous city to live in. Seems you guys want to go back to dangerous cities. Your preference, not mine, or tens of millions of other Americans. Seems the more gun, the more gun crime, is a reality.
"And history tells us gun shot deaths in Dodge City did go down, so it worked..."Since you just dismissed the academic research that I linked to as "BS", what data do you have to support this claim that you can "stand on for certainty"?
Of course, in the here and now, crime is lower than in the bygone days of Dodge City in the picture listed, and the most of the cities with reputations for banning carry by its citizens also have a reputation for levels of violence that aren't admirable.
Since you gun loons are only looking for that "gotcha" moment and will use any BS to get it, that can be played both ways. When you are serious maybe that game will change. Gotcha!
Nice try SS, but if all you got is a comparison 150 years apart, you lose, that is no comparison.
"Nice try SS, but if all you got is a comparison 150 years apart, you lose, that is no comparison." Well Sandra, I was merely answering the question you posed,"It worked then, why not now?" I then gave you examples of where it has been tried, and failed. Its a very good comparison in that it answered your question. You just don't like the answer.
Wrong SS, you are comparing a town where no guns were allowed and confiscated by the authorities to a town that people still have their guns. Allow DC authorities to confiscate guns from their citizens and you have a comparison. Heller wasn't in effect in Dodge City before 1900, so the situation is not comparable.
"Wrong SS, you are comparing a town where no guns were allowed and confiscated by the authorities to a town that people still have their guns." As the sign says Sandra, it was only carrying in public that was illegal, not possession. In fact, people visiting were allowed to drop off their firearms and get them back when they were leaving town. DC is quite applicable because they have done both. Pre-Heller, there was a long standing handgun possession ban which allowed those possessing prior to the law to keep their guns at home, albeit disabled. When they died, the gun had to either be turned in or moved out of DC. And, needless to say, there weren't any carry permits either. Post-Heller, there was still an out-right ban on carry permits that was more onerous than Dodge City's because there was no allowance to check your guns with police during a visit. And during this time, both pre and post Heller, DC has excelled in one thing over the long term, that being violent crime rates.
Guns were not confiscated from the citizens of Dodge City. This was a carry restriction applied in town that mostly affected out-of-towners who had to check their carry weapons to comply.
"Allowed" no they were forced to leave their guns until they left town. According to TS's figures gun crime went down in Dodge City after the possession ban. As far as I know DC police have never forced people to check their guns until they left town. If you can show they have, I'd be interested in reading that information. Again, Heller had nothing to do with the situation in pre 20th century Dodge City and your insistence to use that reference shows me you got nuthin.
"According to TS's figures gun crime went down in Dodge City after the possession ban."I showed no such thing. What I showed is a ten year estimate of 165/100,000 murders per adult population per year. A figure that is ~4x what New Orleans is today, and most of that ten year period was during their carry ban (which is not a possession ban, by the way). DC's law is a possession ban, with no grace period to check a weapon. As soon as you cross the boarder, even with a locked and unloaded inaccessible gun, you are subject to an arrest and felony charges.
Sandra, were you dropped often as a child?Yes, DC never forced people to check their guns until they left town...because they outright banned them from bringing them to town in the first place.Your comments about SSG's references to Heller show a similar inability to follow a logical train of thought.
The link you gave showed that TS. Do you not read your own links, or do you just lie?Thanks for the insult SJ, typical for the gun loons on this site. Heller wasn't law until 140 years after Dodge City did this gun ban, so it is totally BS to use it. I await your next insult since that's all you gun loons have.
This is what I read- and it’s a ten year average. It says nothing about it dropping after enacting a carry restriction. What did you read? Please post it like I did.For instance, the adult residents of Dodge City faced a homicide rate of at least 165 per 100,000 adults per year, meaning that 0.165 percent of the population was murdered each year—between a fifth and a tenth of a percent. That may sound small, but it is large to a criminologist or epidemiologist, because it means that an adult who lived in Dodge City from 1876 to 1885 faced at least a 1 in 61 chance of being murdered—1.65 percent of the population was murdered in those 10 years.
Not to mention, just above you dismissed the OSU paper as “BS” and “guesses”, so why are you citing it now? And what specifically are you citing?
The law was valid 200+ years BEFORE Heller Sandra. The courts just reaffirmed the right is preexisting and law makers infringing on that right were just told to back off. That's what Heller was about. So who is really having the ability to follow a logical train of thought here? I believe that would be you, Sandra
TS, you original point was those numbers were fact. Wrong, an estimate is not a fact. Sorry Gunny, you don't get to claim something was law BEFORE the court ruled on it. What else you got brainless?
Then why did you cite my source to say its a fact that murder dropped after their carry restriction, even though it says nothing of the sort? Not a fact, not an estimate, not an educated guess, not even a wild-ass speculative guess. It says nothing about murder rates dropping.
You don't get to claim the right wasn't valid before the court ruled on it Sandra. The right was there all along, the court just said it was. The court doesn't give you civil rights Sandra, it protects them. You really need to take civics and government classes be for you spout off. You need to grow a brain and use it.
What law was that Gunny? Keep using those insults and prove that's all you got, thanks.
It's called the second amendment, Sandra, the second civil right and the only civil right that says shall not even infringed. That's what the courts protected not granted. Take those classes, you would be surprised as to what you can learn.
I have no clue what you are talking about Gunny, as usual you make no sense. What law/right? To carry?They are your number sources TS and it did refer to it, read it again. Your numbers, not mine.
Sandra, I had an inkling that you were stupid, but you just opened your mouth and removed all doubt."What law/right? To carry?"Not only are you stupid, but your an uneducated idiot.What law/right? For the third time, the civil right. The second civil right. The second amendment. The courts protected the civil rights from government overreach. The reason the civil rights were written. The bill of rights does not grant you the right, it protects an already existing right. The courts do not give your right to keep and bear Sandra! The courts protected that right, law or whatever term you want to use. That's your law AND right to carry. That's the reason ssgmarkcr brought up Heller. The courts AFFIRMED THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR IS IN THE SECOND AMENDMENT! What a complete and utter moron. Educate yourself, go to school you buffoon! I hope these insults will help you go back to school since all you understand and learned has been just the insults, no real evidence of any meaningful education. Let go of those ass kissing lips just long enough to go learn something.
All rights have limitations and regulations, jackass. The insults YOU started asshole, you deserve no better in return. Dodge City banning the carrying of guns in town broke no law, or Constitutional amendment. Man you are a stupid, insulting, jackass, idiot. What a lying pig you are.
"They are your number sources TS and it did refer to it, read it again. Your numbers, not mine."You called those numbers "BS". Are they BS or not?I read it again, and there is nothing about murder rates dropping. There is no mention of this carry ordinance, or when it when into affect. Do us a favor. Highlight the part you are talking about, copy it, and then paste it in here. How hard would that be?
"All rights have limitations and regulations, jackass."Just ONCE I'd like to see someone who is arguing for a limitation on some right--any right--properly explain the precedent on this topic rather than using that old saw as a cudgel and completely missing the fact that they're going much farther than the law allows.
Thanks for all the insults gun loons. Proving once again, that's all you got. Nothing but insulting BS.
Hey, you guys gotta tone down the name calling a little bit.
Thankfully, the dark days of "carrying of firearms strictly prohibited" have been relegated to the scrapheap of shameful history.Never again.
You two tough guys are just like Kory Watkins with your veiled and not-so-veiled threats
You two tough guys are just like Kory Watkins with your veiled and not-so-veiled threatsI guess this is one of the "veiled" ones--so thickly veiled, in fact, that I myself can't see the threat. So tell me, Mikeb, what does your veil-piercing vision see me threatening to do, and to whom?
Never again in bold is a veiled threat, Kory Watkins style. Do you deny it? No, never mind. Asking a pathological liar a question like that is pretty silly.
The official demise of the Wild West. Has anyone ever seen an 1878 Morgan dollar? It was a very large mint. Boom year. Still affordable, even today.1878 would have been just a few years before my own great-grandparents were born. I'm not sure where they all were born, but they raised their families in Texas, Oklahoma and Indiana.What have we forgotten as a nation in the intervening almost one hundred and forty years?
I wonder if this was enforced as stringently as the requirement to try Prickly Ash bitters.