Saturday, July 11, 2015

A Coming Era of Civil Disobedience?

Militia Members at Bundy Ranch stop for Prayer
Militia Members at Bundy Ranch stop for Prayer  

Ammoland by Pat Buchanan

The Oklahoma Supreme Court, in a 7-2 decision, has ordered a monument of the Ten Commandments removed from the Capitol.
Calling the Commandments “religious in nature and an integral part of the Jewish and Christian faiths,” the court said the monument must go.
Gov. Mary Fallin has refused. And Oklahoma lawmakers instead have filed legislation to let voters cut out of their constitution the specific article the justices invoked. Some legislators want the justices impeached.
Fallin’s action seems a harbinger of what is to come in America — an era of civil disobedience like the 1960s, where court orders are defied and laws ignored in the name of conscience and a higher law.

Only this time, the rebellion is likely to arise from the right.


But who decides what is an “unjust law”?


  1. Gun loons don't have the convictions to go to jail by breaking what they call an unjust law, as MLK and other Civil Rights supporters were willing to do, so any comparison, is bogus. We fight to remove unjust laws through the system the Constitution provides, which includes a hearing before a judge and jail time for breaking the law. If you think you are a patriot by breaking the law, then be willing to pay the consequences of your act, which the fake gun loon "patriots" are not. They are just simple law breaking criminals.

    1. "We fight to remove unjust laws through the system the Constitution provides, which includes a hearing before a judge and jail time for breaking the law."

      In this case, they seem to be moving towards a quite legal solution to having to destroy this monument,

      "Indeed, States are the laboratories of democracy. If the people of Oklahoma disagree with the Oklahoma Supreme Court’s ruling and desire a Ten Commandments monument at their State Capitol, there is a legitimate and commonly used mechanism by which they may have their voices heard – the repeal of the Blaine Amendment by popular vote. Leadership in Oklahoma’s House of Representatives have already promised to give the people of Oklahoma that opportunity.
      Rep. Jon Echols, Vice Chairman of the Oklahoma House Judiciary Committee, will file a Resolution in the next legislative session allowing Oklahomans to decide the issue by popular vote. Rep. Echols does not stand alone. Rep. Randy Grau, Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, and Rep. Tom Newell, Chairman of the House Government Oversight & Accountability Committee, have also expressed the need for a repeal of Oklahoma’s Blaine Amendment. Even the State’s leading newspaper has now called for its repeal and has applauded Oklahoma legislators for promising to do so."

      Every now and then, you get someone suggesting the repeal of the Second Amendment to get rid of those pesky Supreme Court decisions saying the possession of arms is an individual right.
      I personally would love to see them try such a thing. It would require a large number of politicians to come out of the closet and publically state their view on gun rights. Currently many pay mere lip service, saying they support the Second Amendment in order to get elected.

    2. Be real. Being backed financially by the NRA is a negative for politicians, but they owe their financial supporters. I have no clue what that has to do with what I said.

    3. I have absolutely no idea how your last comment has anything to do with the article. In my last comment I supplied information as to what they are doing to obey the court and keep the monument, and somehow we are now talking about the NRA and politicians.
      Was your comment meant for another thread?

    4. "A Coming Era of Civil Disobedience?"
      "an era of civil disobedience like the 1960s, where court orders are defied and laws ignored in the name of conscience and a higher law."
      I spoke to the articles points, your reply had nothing to do with what I said. Next lie.

    5. Do you possibly mean something like this Anon?

      "About 1,000 gun-rights advocates, many openly carrying rifles and handguns, rallied Saturday outside the Capitol to protest a new expanded gun background check law in Washington state.
      Organizers of the "I Will Not Comply" rally promised to exchange and sell firearms without conducting background checks during the daylong rally in opposition to the state's voter-approved universal background check law."

      King said this,

      “One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”
      ― Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail

      There doesn't seem to be a requirement to go to jail, just to disobey.

    6. I guess you forgot the point that MLK wrote that from jail because he was arrested for protesting what he thought was an unjust law. He wanted to go to jail to stay within the judicial system and gather support for his cause to get legal changes. He didn't hide from the law in a bu7nker with his guns. You twist anything, but thanks for proving again how dishonest you are.

    7. He chose to be arrested, though that doesn't mean it's required. For example, the people who ran the Underground Railroad helping escaped slaves were breaking the law and needless to say, weren't turning themselves in to be arrested. In my opinion, they were operating under the same principle that King voiced, even though it took place long before King's time.

    8. It seems you're the one who will "twist anything" to call 1000 people blatantly disobeying the law in front of police at the Capitol building "hiding from the law in a bunker with their guns."

    9. No surprise you criminal gun loons don't understand the principle of civil disobedience.

  2. But who decides what is an “unjust law”?

    Well, I sure as hell ain't waiting for anyone else to tell me (especially the likes of you). I decide which laws are worthy of my obedience, and which deserve only my contempt and defiance.

  3. The damn 10 commandments are unconstitutional. It's well established that the location of the 10 commandments is showing preferential treatment by the government of one or more religions over others -- particularly since the theocratic governor is not allowing OTHER religions to put up similarly religious and legitimately of value works. I'm all for the challenge to the 10 commandments coming from Satanists and the Flying Spaghetti Monster sects -- the former has a very real and legitimate role in history (like our own Salem witch hunts) and the latter is brilliant satire.

    1. The damn ten commandments? I never thought of actually being offended by the ten commandments. You are a true eye-opener. Isn't it a little bit stupid to talk of damnation if you are an atheist? Don't you even like the last six, you know:

      Honor thy father and mother.
      Thou shalt not steal.
      Thou shalt not kill.
      Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
      Thou shalt not commit adultery.
      Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.

      Unconstitutional? Again, you are in new territory. I salute you for your innovative thinking. Unfortunately any trial to decide the constitutionality of the ten commandments would only be laughable. An example of the satire you hold dear.

      I think what you may have intended to express was that posting the ten commandments at the state capitol is unconstitutional. That opinion was already handed down by the Oklahoma Supreme Court. Quite possibly a rather conservative organ of our system of governance. This is a serious court of law. You're not serious.

      What happened to you? I mean, who hurt you that you have come to this point? I have always had a bit of a problem with militant anti-Christianity. Just mind your own business if you have a problem with Christianity. Don't make a fool of yourself.

  4. But who decides what is an “unjust law”?

    Just the ones who don't like certain rules the rest of society follows - mostly right wing gun carrying religious crazy's.

    There are ways to change laws,rules and regulations but not to these fucking inbreds and they got the guns ya see and their non existent sky being backing them up.

    1. "Just the ones who don't like certain rules the rest of society follows"

      In this case, its a government entity objecting to a court decision and they seem to be working towards a solution that will bring them into compliance
      Tell me One Fly, what is your opinion of the various government entities that have made themselves sanctuary cities and officially saying that they wouldn't be turning people illegally in the country over to the proper authorities, in this case, federal officials?
      Its been in the news a bit recently since San Francisco's sanctuary policy resulted in the release of a man who killed a woman. This is resulting in various politicians to change their public stance on the sanctuary movement.

  5. I feel it's difficult to differentiate between those who oppose certain laws based on moral convictions and those who pretend to be doing that for their own convenience.

    1. And you seem to resolve that difficulty by defaulting to the assumption that it's the latter, rather than the former.

    2. One way to tell the difference, is are they prepared to go to jail for their civil disobedience to protest an unjust law, or do they just ignore and break the law? MLK went to jail for his civil disobedience, so did draft dodgers, and others protesting an "unjust law." These gun loons just break the law and hide out with their guns ready to shoot it out instead of going to jail for their convictions.

    3. These guys weren't hiding:

    4. "These guys weren't hiding:"

      And they don't seem to be hiding here either,

      "Going a step past litigation, Ohio Carry, a state gun rights organization, is planning to assemble at City Hall the day the ordinance goes into effect and engage in a little civil disobedience by conducting private party sales without informing the Cleveland Police Department.
      “This event is to show not only the city of Cleveland, but any other city in Ohio who might be thinking of doing the same– that we will not comply with illegal laws; that we will not be bullied into compliance for political agendas,” Ohio Carry President Brett Pucillo told “This is our civic responsibility, and we will make our voices heard.”
      Pucillo cautions members that, while they may face arrest, Ohio Carry is mounting a peaceful protest and will follow up on any arrests made with civil lawsuits.
      The tactic of non-compliance has become very popular with Second Amendment advocates in recent years."

      "When Colorado adopted a ban on the transfer of magazines capable of holding more than 15 cartridges, gun activists staged a magazine swap at the state capitol.
      The next year, gun rights groups in New York, faced with a mandate to register an expanded definition of assault weapons under the SAFE Act, burned their registration forms en masse. Far from being symbolic, when New York State Police released the data of how many guns had actually been registered, the numbers were underwhelming.
      Earlier this year, following the expansion of background checks on firearms sales to include virtually all transfers, gun groups in Washington put on a “liberty market and gun show” in which private sales without a background check were both encouraged and expected."

    5. Right! That's why we keep having these shoot outs with nut jobs barricaded in their "bombshells" with enough firepower to defeat multiple local and federal law officers. Are those storie4s made up?

    6. What has that to do with the examples of civil disobedience I provided?

    7. Yeah, TS, a whole 1,000 of them showed up. Out of the million or so gun owners in that gun-lovin' state, that's really impressive.

    8. Not bad when compared to the turnout by the MOMs lately,

      "Despite claims that they were bringing 400 supporters to rally against the NRA, the small group precariously perched on the slope of Riverfront Park was much less than half of the that number, and probably close to the 120-150 attendees. The only difference between this year and last year is that there seemed to be fewer media in attendance this time around. Is the bloom off Bloomberg’s rose?"

      Since the standard line from the MOMs is the claim that the majority of the total population pretty much everywhere support "common sense" gun laws, how is it that they did so poorly with an event with no risk of arrest compared to Washington state which had the potential for arrest.

    9. Your examples SS were NOT civil disobedience. As I said before you gun loons don't know what civil disobedience is.

    10. "Your examples SS were NOT civil disobedience."

      Exactly how are the examples of the deliberate exchange of gun sales in Washington state without a background check and the upcoming protest in Ohio not civil disobedience Anon?
      They are announcing their intent to break the law in a public place ahead of time with the understanding that they may be arrested for their actions. Seems like a couple of textbook examples to me. What are you seeing that doesn't make it so?
      Your previous argument was that merely ignoring the law isn't civil disobedience, they have to be encouraging their own arrest for it to qualify in your eyes.

      "MLK went to jail for his civil disobedience, so did draft dodgers, and others protesting an "unjust law." These gun loons just break the law and hide out with their guns ready to shoot it out instead of going to jail for their convictions."

      By the way, most "draft dodgers" did pretty much the same thing you accuse those ignoring the various laws requiring registering of firearms. For example, they would simply ignore the orders sent to them to report for duty. Some also fled the country entirely. Those folks weren't even content to hide, they fled the potential consequences of their disobedience.

    11. Thanks for proving you don't know what civil disobedience is.

    12. "Thanks for proving you don't know what civil disobedience is."

      This seems pretty accurate to me. What do you think? It sounds like the events I listed meet the criteria of this definition.

      "A symbolic, non-violent violation of the law, done deliberately in protest against some form of perceived injustice. Mere dissent, protest, or disobedience of the law does not qualify. The act must be nonviolent, open and visible, illegal, performed for the moral purpose of protesting an injustice, and done with the expectation of being punished."

    13. That's funny. You already proved you have no clue what civil disobedience is, then you quote a definition that clearly shows your examples don't fit the definition. And now you think you are correct, HA HA HA HA HA HA


    14. "You already proved you have no clue what civil disobedience is, then you quote a definition that clearly shows your examples don't fit the definition. "

      Let's go over the criteria Anon and see how it stacks up,

      The act must be nonviolent, Washington state, no violence
      Ohio state, planned to be peaceful

      open and visible, Washington state, happened in front of the Capitol, pretty visible
      Ohio state, supposed to take place in front of Cleveland city hall, pretty visible

      illegal, Washington state, exchanged weapons without required background check, illegal
      Ohio state, private sales without informing PD as required, also illegal

      performed for the moral purpose of protesting an injustice, both are protesting laws considered to be unjust.

      done with the expectation of being punished, both warned protesters they might be arrested and gave advance notice to insure a police presence. Can't really control whether the police choose not to arrest.

      So can you tell me what parts of the definition my two examples don't fit? Seems pretty clear to me.

    15. Of course it would seem accurate to a proven lying gun loon like you. Laughable.

    16. The kill crazy gun loon dentist is hiding out. Why?