Friday, March 13, 2009

Air Soft Guns

Here's an interesting discussion I found about air soft guns. Isn't what Paul Helmke says reasonable? The Brady Campaign does not want to take guns away from people; they're not against the 2nd Amendment. He says common sense dictates that more regulations on toy guns than real ones is absurd.

What's your opinion?



    10 lies in 3 minuets by my count.

    Of course I back up and support that, and you will refuse to acknowledge that because, like Helmke, you also are a liar, Mike.

  2. That's a conservative estimate.

    "Real gun manufacturers are selling guns with orange tips because they want them to look like toys".

    That's not true. Why do you think he would say something so blatantly false Mike?

    Is he misinformed or lying?

    Would you like me to show you advertisements for toys 'when he was growing up' that looked and sounded exactly like real guns?

  3. "He says common sense dictates that more regulations on toy guns than real ones is absurd."


    Yup, Helmke's a liar.

  4. I haven't watched the video, and probably won't.

    It is possible that there are more regulations on toys than guns. We've got standards for size, shape, sharp edges, chemicals and materials, paint, levels of lead and other toxins, age-appropriate labeling, country of origin labels, copyright, minimum size, pinch points, packaging, etc, etc. I'm sure there are thousands of rules and regulations applying to toys that I've never heard of from agencies that I don't know exist.

    A recent new law requires that all children's items offered for sale be monitored for lead. With the recent problems with Chinese toys, it makes sense on the surface--however, there was no exemption for used toys and clothing, or for handcrafted and small-manufacturer items. This is another regulation that strongly favors big business and mass-produced merchandise. Walmart can afford to have their Chinese crap tested, but the cottage industry can't, since testing doesn't cost much less for small quantities.

    I strongly support sensible restrictions on government interference in our toy industry--we should be reducing the over-regulation until toys are regulated less than guns.

  5. Sevesteen, Thanks for once again offering a serious on-topic comment. Your confreres in the gun movement could take a lesson from a gentleman like you.

    Weer'd, It's pretty shabby when you come over here, call me names, link back to your site and don't provide a link back here when talking about me. I think that violates standard blogging etiquette, don't you?

  6. You're a lying troll, Mike, and you talk about etiquette?

    I'll give you links when you start telling the truth and engaging in honest discussion.

    (note you dodged the 10 lies in 3 minuets talking point)

  7. So Mike, where's the evidence that "Real gun manufacturers are selling guns with orange tips because they want them to look like toys".

    Have you seen any? Can you provide proof for it?

    Is questioning this dubious claim 'off topic'?

  8. Mike,

    Why do you leave so many questions unanswered?

    Many questions on this one post alone have gone unanswered by you for days.

    These are obviously not rhetorical questions but in response to your request for dialogue.

    Some of them really point out the obvious....that your position is untenable. Is that why you refuse to engage in full open and honest discussion?

    Weer'd posted 10 lies in 3 minutes.
    Thirdpower asks about which real firearm manufacturers are producing real guns with orange tips like Helmke claims.

    Any support for Helmke's claim that toys gun have more regulations then real firearms?

    There are many more posts, many more questions that you ignore.

    You say you want to have an open and honest discussion but then ignore practically every point that disputes your position. Why is that Mike?

    You ask the questions, you provoke the response then abandon the topic when it gets too tough, too obvious that you can't defend what you believe in with anything other then unicorn farts and "commonsense".

    I'll challenge you again. Find a pro-firearm supporter, pick 3 to 5 points to debate. Host an open and honest debate on those 3-5 your evidence and let the pro-freedom crowd present their evidence.

    What do you say Champ? Ready to put your blog where you mouth is?

  9. MikeB:

    I've been reading your blog for a while now. You keep asking "what do you think". I still don't know what you think.

    Put me on the side of the others who would like more defense of your ideas in comments, rather than concentrating on new posts all the time.

  10. "We're not a gun ban organization"


    "It is our view that civilians do not need to possess these weapons."

    "if Michael McLendon didn't have access to assault weapons, maybe the death toll would not have been as high as it was."

    "The e-mail calling to reinstate the federal assault weapons ban of 1994 until 2004 was signed by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence; the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence; Freedom States Alliance; Legal Community Against Violence and Violence Policy Center."

    So do they or do they not support gun bans?

  11. "So do they or do they not support gun bans?"

    Well they supported the DC and Chicago bans, so anyone with a functioning brain should be able to figure out the Brady's real agenda (right MikeB?)

  12. I think when Helmke says they don't want to ban guns, he means ALL guns. I don't know.

    About more defense of my ideas, I'll try to do that. One problem is that many of my ideas are in the process of being formulated. That's why I enjoy the antagonistic comments, not the name calling and all that, but the true disagreement that I get from many of you guys.

    I'm very interested in that idea of the ratio of guns in the hands of good guys compared to guns in the hands of bad guys. This also touches on the famous question of how can laws which are obeyed by the good guys and ignored by the bad guys help.

    I don't know the answer to that.

  13. Then do like Weer'd did MikeB, research the issue.

    Don't keep repeating the same tired lines that quickly look like you are lying.

    Admit you don't know, admit that you need help. Heck, anyone of us would point you to resources....both pro and anti to help.

    But stop telling us we are part of the problem when you don't know.

    You have anyone's e-mail....shoot us a note, ask both sides to provide information. I guarantee you'll get a response from the pro-freedom side.

    But Mike, the name calling has to stop on both sides. When you continually throw us under the bus as you have it provokes a response.

    You've posted about people committing horrible crimes and then say any gun owner is partly responsible for that crime....I tend to see that as a little offensive.

  14. "I think when Helmke says they don't want to ban guns, he means ALL guns. I don't know."

    A ban is a ban is a ban..... the word has the same meaning regardless of context mike. He either wants to ban guns or doesn't.

    Whether you'll admit it or not the D.C. laws were a GUN BAN. A full ban on pistols, and what amounted to a functional ban on all long guns. Add the fact that zoning laws in the district were such that there were NO open FFL's in DC and guess what you have? A total ban on firearms. Guess who supported those laws Mike? The Brady Campaign.

    So yes, Paul wants to ban guns. To say otherwise is blatantly dishonest.

  15. In ten seconds of looking I found this story. I imagine there are others.

    Maybe Thirdpower and some of you others are the misinformed ones. But, is there one of you big enough to admit it?

  16. Sorry MikeB, but Helmke said that "Real gun manufacturers are selling guns with orange tips because they want them to look like toy"

    There is a major difference in a coated pistol and a pistol with the TIP painted orange.

    I for one don't mind the different colors. Who says that firearms have to be black or stainless?

    Now, how about tackling whether or not the Brady Campaign supports gun bans?

  17. No, Bob, let's stick with this for a minute. I say Helmke probably learned of some gun nuts out there who thought it would be a cool idea to put that colored tip on real guns. A bunch of you called him a liar because it's so absurd to imagine real guns purposely being made to look like toys. I showed you one example. Will you admit when you're wrong or not, and you Third, and you Mike W.?

  18. Mike,

    You are giving Helmke too much credit.

    He didn't say "a bunch of people are painting their firearms to look like toys". He said "real manufacturers are selling guns with orange tips

    Now, have you found a single firearm manufacturer that is selling guns with orange tips?

    Does Helmke provide any evidence of such manufacturers?

    As far as the Duracoat colors making "real guns" look like toys, that is debatable. I see more of toy manufacturers making their products look like real guns....and I ask SO WHAT?

    Over on Weer'd's blog (that is awkward to type), I posted about growing up in Mississippi and Montana.

    We ALL had toys guns...many of them looked like real guns. We walked around constantly with them.

    We all had BB guns and Pellet guns, many of them looked like real guns, we walked around with them constantly.

    Not once in all the years, nor in any friends memory did we ever have a cop draw down on us. NOT ONCE.

    And why was that MikeB?

  19. You think your story of a company that paints guns is easily confused with manufacturers selling orange-tipped guns? Helmke is supposed to be an expert in this field. Any confusion is deliberate.

    If you point something that is remotely gun-shaped at a cop, you deserve to be shot, orange tip or not, pink frame or not.

    ...and the guns at the end aren't real.

    What colors should be legal for guns?

  20. Sevesteen, It's not about the color or the red tip. It's about three or four of the commenters, not yourself I noticed, seizing on the comment about real guns with red tips to call Helmke a liar. My quick search showed that there is such a thing as real guns made to look like toys, which the ones making all the noise had denied. If the site I found so quickly was there, I imagine the other one is too. But to turn this into a major challenge and a major accusation, one which requires "proof," is just absurd. That's my point.

  21. Mike,

    Helmke is a professional spokesperson, the message he gives is one he repeats constantly.

    This is not a case of him saying there are firearms that look like toys. There are, is that a good thing? I don't know and personally don't see it as much of an issue.

    As with Sevesteen, you point something that remotely looks like a gun at a cop, you are going to get into trouble. That is the law.
    The law also says it is wrong to use even a toy to make people think you have a gun, that's illegal.

    The point that we are trying to make is that Helmke is a typical anti-gun person. He is either ignorant or a liar. Since he does this for a living, we can rule out ignorant, agreed?

    That only leaves a liar :)

    He clearly, and has repeatedly, said that some firearm manufacturers are making firearms with ORANGE TIPS.

    Either this is the truth or it is a lie, which is it?

    This isn't about us seizing on a small point, it is about us pointing out a LIE. A deliberate attempt by Helmke to demonize firearm manufacturers.

    Don't like that one, pick one from Weer'd's post and show how it isn't a lie.

    The man lied, repeatedly during the broadcast. It can be proven.

    Where is your vaunted open mind he telling the truth.

    That is a very specific accusation, can you find any examples of it being true?

    Duracoat is an aftermarket coating producer, much like Sherwin Williams. NOT ANYWHERE NEAR a FIREARM MANUFACTURER.

    Painting the entire firearm isn't anywhere near painting "the tip" to make the gun look like a toy.

    Did Helmke tell the truth, which requires proof, or did he lie?

  22. Bob, I hate that I've let you suck me into wasting time on this.

    It's not only Helmke who's talking about this. In MI they're voting on it. Is that because Helmke made it up?

    Thor, who must be a white supremacist by the look of the site, seems to think they exist too.

    Admit when you're wrong, Bob. The whole point was that we need more regulations on real guns. He mentioned this business about the toy guns in passing, which it turns out he did not invent after all, but it was never the main point, not until you and all the other picked up on it and wouldn't let go.

  23. Mike

    Did Helmke say "guns that look like toys" or "guns with orange tips"? He

    At the moment, you are acting just like the Bradys. There is an outrageous claim that leads people to a particular conclusion. When challenged, either the claim is a flat out lie, or the evidence points to something that is so tenuously related to the conclusion as to be effectively a lie.

    None of the major or intermediate manufacturers have or will make an oragne-tipped real gun.

  24. Mike,

    Sorry but I'm not buying it. You are linking to 1.) a bill to make it legal to alter toy or real guns and 2.) a forum talking about CRIMINALS altering firearms.

    NOT ONE LINK TO A 'REAL FIREARM MANUFACTURER'. Helmke was very specific in his criticism, wasn't he?

    Have I ever argued there aren't people breaking the law? NO.

    Have ever argued that toy guns look like real guns and vice versa? No.

    Should it be an issue? No. This is non-sense. It is taking away people's rights in the name of "doing good". Sorry but if someone points a toy gun at a cop or an armed citizen, they deserve what they get.

    Show me a real firearm manufacturer that is producing firearms with "orange tips" to make them look like toys!!

  25. Sorry that should be a bill making it illegal to alter

    Not enough caffeine this morning.

  26. "I say Helmke probably learned of some gun nuts out there who thought it would be a cool idea to put that colored tip on real guns."

    Mike - Again you lie.

    Helmke said that gun manufacturers were making real guns with orange tips. That was his assertion. It is a LIE. There is no manufacturer making real guns with orange tips.

    The article you posted about LCW making duracoated colorful guns to make fun of Bloomberg doesn't make what you said any less dishonest.

  27. Sevesteen, Do you feel like the others that Helmke is a liar? Based on the comments, you seem to be much more level-headed than the others, and as a result I'd like to know your opinion.

    Remember what Scott Lewis, who has met and debated with Helmke said:
    "Having met Paul Helmke personally, I will say that he seems to genuinely believe in what he's doing. I certainly don't suspect him of having an ulterior motive. And in person he doesn't come across as the most unreasonable gun control advocate I've ever met. He's most definitely not the most unreasonable person at the Brady Campaign."

  28. Mike,

    Just because someone believes in what they are doing doesn't mean they won't lie to accomplish what they are doing.

    We've given specific, verifiable examples of repeated lies by Helmke and other anti-freedom groups.

    What is so hard to believe that people will LIE in order to accomplish their goals?

    What more do you need to see that one side, consistently lies, manipulates and distorts information and the other side is more honest. Note that I don't say the other side is blameless either.

    Something else I've noticed, the Brady Campaign has a paid person appearing on all these shows and the pro-freedom side usually has people advocating for a position but not paid, Like W. Scott Lewis or Melanie Hain (PA soccer Mom)

    Think about what that says about the anti-freedom crowd.

  29. Mike - Just because he might genuinely believe in what he's doing doesn't change the fact that he tells bold faced lies.

    And I agree with Scott Lewis. Peter Hamm is FAR more unreasonable, nasty, and despicable than Paul Helmke is.