Sunday, April 26, 2009

Georgia Professor Kills Three and Flees

CNN reports on the shooting that took place in Georgia yesterday. A University of Georgia professor George Zinkhan, shot and killed his wife and two others before fleeing.


A University of Georgia professor apparently shot and killed his wife and two other people at a community theater group's reunion Saturday, then dropped the couple's two children off at a neighbor's and fled.

Athens-Clarke County police said they have local, regional and national alerts out for George Zinkhan, 57, an endowed marketing professor at the school's Terry College of Business.

Zinkhan was not at the theater event initially, Holeman said, but when he arrived, he got into "a disagreement" with his wife. He left the scene -- police believe to his car, where his children were waiting -- and returned with two handguns.

This is yet another sad story that perfectly illustrates some of our most common, and most debated themes.

Gun availability. Whenever someone decides to kill in the heat of an argument or in a rageful fit or on the spur of the moment, just like when someone concludes that suicide is the answer while home alone in the nadir of depression, gun availability is critical. What should be done about that is another question, but I submit that in this particular case we have another example in which the shooter's mini arsenal, which was readily available in the car, made the difference.

Gun flow. Here's another case of a presumably law abiding gun owner turning bad. There was no indication that he was anything other than a normal guy who was exercising his 2nd Amendment right to self protection - at least that's what some people say the 2nd Amendment is all about. I and many others are not so sure. The gun flow in this case is the hidden one, the one which concerns itself more with people than weapons. But, just like its big brother, the flow of stolen or improperly sold guns, this type of gun flow is continual.

Concealed Carry on campus. The pro-gun folks say that allowing concealed carry on college campuses would be helpful in thwarting school shootings. I admit they have a good argument, but here's an example of how disaster would follow. Allowing professors and older students to carry on campus presumes that they can be trusted to manage their guns responsibly. This is too big a presumption for the simple reason that people are people, even gun owners, even gun owners with the Concealed Carry license.

There are a couple of fascinating twists to this tragic story, particularly that unlike some of the high profile shootings lately, he didn't shoot the kids as well. It was reported that he drove them to a neighbor's immediately after killing their mother. Lucky kids, or are they?


"It appeared he and his wife were having problems," police Capt. Clarence Holeman said.

Two other people were wounded by ricocheting bullets, Holeman said, but did not identify them. At least 20 people were in attendance at the event, he said.

After making that unintentional joke about their "having problems," the police captain provided an interesting piece of information we don't often hear. This is called collateral damage. When it's less than fatal it often gets overlooked, not only in criminal shootings but in the so-called defensive uses of guns. I would imagine people who are suddenly shot by ricocheting bullets might suffer terribly for a long, long time both physically and emotionally. This is part of gun violence too.

What's your opinion? Did you notice in the story that when he decided to kill his wife he had to go out to his car to get the guns, the car in which his two young children were waiting? I suppose the weapons could have been locked in the glove compartment, but still it makes you wonder.

Do you agree with me about gun availability plays a part in many of these tragedies? Wouldn't it be possible to agree with that and still maintain your gun-rights position?

Please feel free to leave a comment.

34 comments:

  1. Georgia has a "public gathering" prohibition on CCW, meaning licensed defenders were prohibited by law from carrying to the reunion--including in the car on the way there. (It has been ruled that a gun in a car 200 yards from the church was "carried to" the church)

    So this is another example of a type of tragedy that happens extremely disproportionately in "gun free" zones, perpetrated by a criminal who was violating the law even before he began shooting.

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  2. A cousin of mine shot himself while his wife was driving their Suburban and two of their sons were in the backseat. He had always had a fascination with guns and kept "some" in the truck. However, his wife said she never knew about the one he kept underneath the passenger seat.

    That was the worst funeral I have ever attended... those kids are now in prison after five years of trying to cope with watching their father blow his head off.

    Guns don't just enable the fast, impersonal (in terms of proximity) killing of people, they destroy families.

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  3. Sorry about your Cousin Skye, but the gun did not cause him to kill himself.

    He made the decision to point it at himself and pull the trigger, and he made the decision to do it in front of his wife and kids.

    I do understand now why you are anti-gun though. Like most fervently anti-gun folks you have suffered a terrible personal loss and thus you approach the issue from an emotional rather than rational standpoint. That is regrettable, but also perfectly understandable.

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  4. Skye,

    It isn't the firearm that destroyed that family, IT WAS THE FATHER'S action.

    What you are saying it that it was the car the DRUNK DRIVER was using, is what killed himself,herself, the innocent victim. It simply isn't true.

    The actions of the person is the issue.

    Firearms also enable people to stop assaults, prevent rapes, stop home invasions, save lives.

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  5. I want to ask a few questions of the gun control people. Frankly, I have been wanting to see if they will answer my questions about certain situations that I have personally found myself in, that involve the possible need for a gun.

    A: You are working in an isolated area, more than ten minutes drive from any assistance. In this area, there have been reports of various types of predatory wildlife. IE bears, wild and ferrel dogs, and large cats. In your mind, and opinion, do you think it is acceptable to carry a firearm, give these circumstances?

    B: You are a farmer, whose sole crop is livestock. Your neighbors feel that since you live in the country, that their dogs should be allowed to roam at large. This of course causes several issues, but the main issue, lies with the fact that their dogs maim and kill your crop. Do you believe that it is acceptable to have one or several types of firearms, to protect your livestock?

    C: Again you are working in an isolated area. In the surrounding areas, there are many people who are alcoholics, or drug users. Many are noted to be violent. Keeping in mind, that you are at least fifteen minutes from assistance, if you can reach assistance, what are your opinions of carrying a firearm?

    Now I know that many people do not live or work in a rural setting, where you are isolated or spend the bulk of your time completely alone. However some of us do, I spend twelve hours a night in two of those situations. Even today, as I continue to try and make a living at farming, I am faced with the third. I just want your opinions, just to see where your opinion is.

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  6. Judging from stories in the news recently, guns seem more and more to be the option turned to by people who are disturbed, angry, out of control. I think some people should not own guns. The current climate in our country is putting many more guns into the hands of many more people. I suspect by a year from now we'll know from statistics whether that was a good thing.

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  7. I can never understand all the insistence on personal accountability. The only thing I can come up with is that its proponents find comfort in thinking things are black and white. In life however, there's a big gray area in which things are not so simple. The suicidal person who survives will often express regret for having attempted such a drastic solution to whatever temporary problem there was. Suicide attempts with guns are highly successful. Doesn't that make you well up with sadness and pity for the ones who died simply because they had the misfortune to have the most efficient means of killing themselves at their disposal? You should be ashamed of yourselves for talking about personal choice and "he made a decision," and all that crap.

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  8. Malakh, I accept that there are situations in which one would want to be armed. In fact, I've said that I could see doing it myself given the right circumstances.

    That has nothing to do with the fact that diminishing gun availability is part of the solution. And it has nothing to do with the fact that gun-rights activists should accept responsibility for the mess that their policies create. If the violence is the tiny percentage they say it is, what's the problem with accepting partial responsibility for it? It's part of the price we must pay for freedom, right?

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  9. "If the violence is the tiny percentage they say it is, what's the problem with accepting partial responsibility for it? "

    What responcibility did I have in you breaking state and federal law to own illigal guns, Mike?

    As a matter of fact, if I got credible evedence that you were in this country and illigally in posession of firearms I'd tip off the police to confiscate them.

    This goes with any other person (and yes, I've done it before, and helped others do it).

    Criminals who commit crimes deserve to be behind bars or under the ground. As MikeB firmly proves, many of them simply get away.

    THAT is the problem, not the guns.

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  10. MikeB,

    How do you reconcile your statements that you could see yourself going armed and wanting to reduce availability?


    I have determined, that like you, I want to be armed in many situations.

    Yet your proposed(what few there are) ideas are all designed to make it harder for the law abiding to own firearms.

    So, how do you reconcile those statements?

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  11. What do you mean by "accepting responsibility"? I've seen various definitions, including the typical 'I accept full responsibility, (but it really isn't my fault)' of politicians--See Janet Reno and Waco for an example.

    To me, responsibility is more than just saying "my fault". If there is nothing I could foreseeably do to prevent something, then I can't be responsible. If I could have and should have taken action to prevent harm to others, but failed, then I am responsible, whether I admit it or not.

    I could accept blame as a law abiding gun owner for the actions of criminal misuse. I could even accept blame for the people who don't secure their guns as carefully as I do.

    If I were to accept responsibility for gun misuse, what can I personally do to make things right, what should I have done to prevent the problem in the first place? If there is nothing I could or can do to fix the problem, that version of responsibility is meaningless.

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  12. Easy Bob, Mike is willing to break the law when it suits his needs. You and I are not.

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  13. Not that it will matter one whit to the people posting here, but my cousin had a long history of clinical depression (also an alcoholic; he was an airline pilot who suffered from anxiety and panic attacks from his very hectic schedule and lifestyle).

    My point is: my cousin should *never* have had access to a gun--not one. Yet, he was able to purchase and keep numerous handguns and shot guns despite his mental instability.

    I am tired of the pro-gun people:
    A) IMMEDIATELY labeling anyone who may call for stricter gun control Anti-gun or *emotional*. Fuck. you. People are getting killed. You bet your ass I'm going to be emotional because guess what? I am a human fucking being. And as a result, I give a shit about other people and their safety around those who may be inexperienced or incapable of using a weapon, such as a gun, responsibly.

    B) Trying to divert attention from the real issue which is *not* those who are responsible gun owners.

    *It.is.a.question.of.access.*

    Period.

    Keep. your. guns: I frankly could give a rats ass. But don't let people in your *group* sell guns illegally and outside the limits of the law.

    If you can't police yourselves, support those who do, and prevent outliers from getting weapons off people who have them to sell. Why are you unwilling to help make the questionable access to guns harder? Or better yet, to even *admit* that it is an issue?

    Weer'd whatever said he doesn't like you, Mike. What the hell does that have to do with the discussion?

    Then a smarmy insult to boot: "Easy Bob, Mike is willing to break the law when it suits his needs. You and I are not."

    Apologies, MikeB, for my foul language. I am just sick of these people who think that their fellow Americans are not allowed to have a dissenting opinion from theirs-- and boy they attack, attack attack, anyone who doesn't agree with them.

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  14. Skye, No need to apologize. I like a little profanity on my blog. I admit, "fuck you" is a tiny bit strong, but I really don't think it's as offensive as the name calling and gratuitous insults that I've supported for too long. I don't know it you saw it but on another thread I just made Weer'd an offer he can't refuse. So there'll be no more distractions from him.

    I really tried to have an open commenting policy, and did so for a long time, the better part of a year. But enough is enough. Even other pro-gun guys remarked that some of the comments were a bit over the top.

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  15. Skye,

    My point is: my cousin should *never* have had access to a gun--not one.Are you writing from a legal, moral or personal perspective here?

    There is a major difference. If you and your family felt he shouldn't have had access to firearms, isn't it up to you to act on that?

    Not the law, there are too many people who have the same symptoms, the same issues, but never kill themselves. The law has to allow some flexibility, if we write the law most intrusive reasons, provide the most restrictive requirements...we loose the freedom.

    Yet, he was able to purchase and keep numerous handguns and shot guns despite his mental instability.Again, was your cousin legally mentally unstable? Did the family act to safeguard him by having him committed if he was a danger to himself?

    There is a legal process by which those with mental problems have their rights restricted. Was it followed?

    A) IMMEDIATELY labeling anyone who may call for stricter gun control Anti-gun or *emotional*. Fuck. you. MikeB, how can you allow this language on your BLOG? Doesn't that violate your commenting policy?

    Skye, thanks for proving the point in your own words and showing your hypocrisy while doing it.

    People are getting killedPeople are getting killed every day in a wide variety of manners. Most of which don't involve firearms. According to the CDC WISQARS, there were 179,065 fatalities in America in 2006, only 30,896 of those involved a firearm. That is 17.25%.

    As for as suicide, the CDC also reports in 2006, there were 16,883 firearm related suicides and 16,417 NON-Firearm related suicide. Those that want to commit suicide will. STOP BLAMING THE TOOL FOR THEIR MENTAL STATE.


    *It.is.a.question.of.access.*If it is a question of access, why is JAPAN's suicide rate(23.7) so much higher then Finland (20.1) and America's (11.0)?

    Japan has very strict gun control laws and almost NO access to firearms!

    But don't let people in your *group* sell guns illegally and outside the limits of the law.Sorry but the people selling guns illegally aren't in my group. They aren't in my group any more then the women prostituting themselves are in your group.

    Why are you unwilling to help make the questionable access to guns harder?Because despite all the gun control laws on the International, National, State, County and Local level there not a shred of evidence that they work to prevent crime.

    So why do something that doesn't work?

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  16. MikeB,

    Please approve my reply to Skye or tell me what portion of your commenting policy I violated.

    I've tried to abide by your policy and am surprised that you allow one side to curse and be vulgar but not the other. Maybe I'm not so surprised.

    I would appreciate a reply. Thanks

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  17. Then a smarmy insult to boot: "Easy Bob, Mike is willing to break the law when it suits his needs. You and I are not."How is it an insult? MikeB has said himself he's committed firearms related felonies and would do so in the future depending upon circumstances.

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  18. B) Trying to divert attention from the real issue which is *not* those who are responsible gun owners.

    *It.is.a.question.of.access.*

    Period.

    Keep. your. guns: I frankly could give a rats ass. But don't let people in your *group* sell guns illegally and outside the limits of the law.
    If responsible gun owners aren't the real issue then why are WE the ones you, your ilk, and the legislators pushing to pass more gun-control always seek to attack.

    Punish those who act criminally irresponsible and leave the rest of us the FUCK alone!

    Why are you unwilling to help make the questionable access to guns harder? I am all for cracking down hard on the illegal use and illegal sale of firearms. Key word being ILLEGAL.

    You and I both know felons buy and sell guns on the black market. I've had people in the "hood" tell me they could buy a gun illegally in 5 minutes. How am I, as a upstanding citizens supposed to "police" that when I don't associate with felons?

    Illegal sale of firearms to persons prohibited IS a huge issue, but it isn't solved or mitigated by legislatively attacking the LEGAL market. You'd think you could see the obvious parallels to War on Drugs and Prohibition here, but I don't have much faith in your ability to think critically and rationally about guns.

    How much do you actually know about the current legal process for buying a gun and the myriad of restrictions already in place?

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  19. "there are too many people who have the same symptoms, the same issues, but never kill themselves."

    Yup, I mean hell, you'd be hard pressed to find ANYONE who wasn't depressed at some point in their life.

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  20. "Skye, thanks for proving the point in your own words and showing your hypocrisy while doing it."

    Yup, look at how she's reacted with her recent comment. I mean hell, I can't see why ANYONE might call her emotional......

    Calm, rational, logical discourse with a reliance on FACTS to prove your points. Can you do that Skye?

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  21. Really, I think most of these folks are either deaf or illiterate.

    I cannot have said it any plainer, but I will go. point. for. point. so. you. can. keep. up.

    Point A: "My cousin had a long history of clinical depression." The. word. "clinical". means. he. was. diagnosed. and. under. treatment.

    Because. he. was. under. a. doctor's. care. he. should. not. have. been. allowed. to. buy. guns. His. wife. could. do. nothing. to. take. his. guns. away. from. him. Especially. when. he. had. one. in. his. hand. pointed. at. himself.

    Point B: "I am tired of the pro-gun people [...] trying to divert attention from the real issue which is *not* those who are responsible gun owners."
    This. means. I. am. not. talking. about. responsible. gun. owners. as. you. all. claim. to. be.

    Point C: "Keep. your. guns: I frankly could give a rats ass."
    Even. at. that. slow. pace. and. blatantly. stated. point. you. still. try. to. accuse. me. of. being. anti. gun. What. part. of. I. could. give. a. rat's. ass. do. you. not. understand?

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  22. Skyewriter

    A huge proportion of vocally anti-gun people use a personal tragedy as part of their anti-gun argument. We aren't just pulling the "emotional" out of thin air.

    I won't argue that there is a problem with access, however I'm pretty sure you and I will have different definitions here. There are too many people who look for any excuse to eliminate any legl guns--somehow MY access to guns has to be restricted to solve the problem, even though the worst thing on my record is a traffic ticket.

    I don't know what to do about the mentally ill--One problem is that there is no middle ground, someone is either unrestricted or banned for life with no recourse. I'd also say that the mentally ill should not be flying airliners.

    The problem with outliers is due process. We can't imprison every rapist and murderer without imprisoning a lot who didn't actually do it. (We can get MORE rapists if more women are armed, both the cause and effect something I wholeheartedly support)

    The people selling guns illegally aren't in my group--I'm a law-abiding gun owner, and have my guns to defend against the sort of criminals you complain about. If I know someone is knowingly selling to criminals, I'll turn them in without a second thought. If I'd known at the time some of the things MikeB has admitted to here (Helping friends get guns when they couldn't do it by themselves...) I'd have turned him in. Commenting on what MikeB has admitted doesn't qualify as a smarmy insuslt.

    How do you balance the rights of innocent law abiding gun owners with the sort of controls you want?

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  23. Skye:

    I think the sides are talking past one another here.

    What I think the "other side" is trying to say is that taking guns away from everybody who's under a doctor's care _is_ a law that overreaches and affects lawful, safe gun owners disproportionally. If your cousin (and I'm so very, very sorry to hear about him; his wife and kids, and you and the rest of your family, have my sympathy) was so dangerous to himself that he couldn't be trusted with objects that he could use to hurt himself, he probably should have been involuntarily committed for his own protection.

    Federal law already prohibits the sale of guns to people who've been committed for mental care, and requires dealers to perform a background check at the time of _every_ gun sale to verify, among other things, that the purchaser hasn't been committed.

    The existing law tries to protect the rights of the overwhelming majority of responsible, low-threat people (very, very many of whom have been clinically treated for depression at some point in their lives) while making it much harder for the people at the highest risk to get guns.

    From my perspective, as much as the individual tragedies disturb me, I feel like I have to distance them from the debate, to a certain extent. No matter where we draw the line, there will always be people "just this side of it" who'll die tragically. If we keep moving that line in response to our pain over lost lives, we'll end up moving it over to complete prohibition. :\

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  24. Post order is a little bit shuffled by moderation--my last was written before your post above it showed up

    "Sensible gun control" is a term used by gun control advocates. This generally means the promotion of laws that look reasonable on the surface, but are actually far more restrictive and unreasonable in the details.

    Where do you draw the line with mental illness? Google says that 26% of Americans suffer from a diagnosable mental illness in a given year. The same Google search says doctors are supposed to report airline pilots who suffer from depression, and they aren't allowed to fly. You are saying "because he was under a doctor's care" he should have had to give up his guns--How well did that work as a pilot?

    If I have to give up my constitutional rights to get treatment (whether it is guns, search and seizure, due process, free speech...), there's a good chance I will at least delay treatment. I wonder how many pilots are afraid of losing their jobs, so are going without treatment? (and a further worry--if the government can breach doctor-patient confidentiality for pilots, will that expand to the rest of us?)

    How do you determine who is responsible (or more importantly irresponsible) in time to do any good? Too many gun control advocates say the same things you are, but their definition of "responsible" is impossibly strict. They also use divide and conquer tactics--I don't want YOUR guns, I want those other people's guns.

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  25. What should be done about that is another question...

    I think this may honestly be where the whole inability to see eye to eye comes from, Mike: there's an almost total lack of good suggestions for effective new gun laws, making the question seem almost academic. We all agree that it's terrible when innocent people are hurt and killed with guns. We all wish we could flip a switch and make guns magically know who the bad guys are, and hurt only them...

    Or, more reasonably, everybody in this conversation seems to want laws that do everything possible to decrease the number of violent deaths out there, without unduly burdening responsible, law-abiding citizens (which is actually a great place to be--we don't have anybody skewing the conversation with a "just ban 'em all" argument).

    The thing is, most of us gun owners think that gun control laws have gone as far as they can (I'd say a bit farther) toward that goal. Those people who've had their day in court to defend themselves and have still been found mentally or morally unfit to have guns, we disqualify from having guns. And we require a background check every single time a dealer sells a gun, to verify that the buyer isn't one of those people. That, to me, is the most effective, reasonable system we have, and is about as far as we can reasonably go before we hit massive diminishing returns on the benefit/burden-on-rights scale. Even so, we _also_ have a mountain of restrictions, complications, licenses, fees, registrations, inconsistencies, and general _burdens_ at the local, state, and federal levels of government that heavily burden the responsible without significantly decreasing crime or suicide. Basically, we're already deeply into the diminishing returns on gun control, and fail to see how further increasing the burdens without significant benefits is a good idea.

    Most of us are open to any good ideas people may have, but those ideas aren't generally forthcoming. We have a proposed "assault weapons" ban, which would restrict completely arbitrary cosmetic features while leaving much, much "deadlier" traditional firearms widely available. We have a proposal to "close the gun-show loophole", which would in fact just end the legal trade in used guns, dramatically increasing the cost of gun ownership to the law-abiding without meaningfully affecting the supply of guns to criminals. When the extremely rare good idea comes along (like the amendment that required states to improve their reporting of mental health disqualifications to the federal database after Virginia Tech), the NRA and most responsible gun owners usually support it.

    You ask "shouldn't we have more reasonable, common-sense gun laws", and I say "sure; please show me one". You ask "shouldn't we do something about all these tragic deaths", and I say "absolutely, but I think gun control is an area that's sorely tapped out in that regard."

    If we want to save lives, IMO, we should be taking steps to improve the relationship between police and their communities, improve the practice of mental health, better rehabilitate the criminals who can be saved, and better isolate the criminals who can't be trusted to live with innocent people. There's room there for significant improvement that could have dramatic affects on public safety without unduly burdening individual rights; why waste time with new gun laws that are burdensome and inneffective when there's so much work to be done?

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  26. "Malakh, I accept that there are situations in which one would want to be armed. In fact, I've said that I could see doing it myself given the right circumstances."

    I appreciate your answer to my questions MikeB. I only wish more people who support gun control would have answered. I do not always have time to read your blog, due to irregular work schedules, and college. So I have missed your posts about carrying a side arm, in the right circumstances.


    "That has nothing to do with the fact that diminishing gun availability is part of the solution. And it has nothing to do with the fact that gun-rights activists should accept responsibility for the mess that their policies create."

    I wanted to ask you, now that I have had some sleep, what are your ideas about diminishing gun availability? I am not trying to be insulting, nor do I ever recall your thoughts on it, but you might have already posted them, and I missed them. To be honest when I last bought a pistol, I had to wait ten days to take possession, to go along with a background check. What further restrictions do you want?

    "If the violence is the tiny percentage they say it is, what's the problem with accepting partial responsibility for it? It's part of the price we must pay for freedom, right?"

    On this, you I believe that you and others who support that are reaching. Now, I could use the same tired arguments, but I am not. I will say, that if a gun owner, should take some or all responsibility for a gun owner going on a rampage, where will it end? I cannot control another human being. I cannot force them to my will. Just as you cannot force people to your will. I am not handing someone a loaded gun, and telling that person to "kill'em all, and let god sort it out." I like so many, support common sense laws, that actually work. I will go onto say that people judge by the worst in others, and their actions.

    As for the price of freedom. Freedom has no price. It is god given with a single string, respect and follow the law. Those who step outside the law lose their freedom, those who stay within the law, keep their freedoms.

    Skye, while I am sorry that your cousin decided that his only out in life was to commit suicide. Any act of violence with a gun, self defense or otherwise is a tragedy. In the end it all comes down to personal responsibility. He made a choice, and everyone else had to deal with the consequences. As for his children, they made choices, the consequences of their choices, landed them behind bars. The gun he used, was not the sole destruction of their family, his choice to end his life, in the fashion he did was. His family members should have stepped in. Having the issues he was having with depression, and alcoholism, they could have done more to prevent this incident. I noticed you said that his wife could not have taken his guns. But in truth, she could have removed many of them.

    Actions have consequences, if I should pull the gun I carry, even if in the right I could spend time in prison. That is true for any person who carries. Those were the first words out of the instructors mouth when we sat in our gun safety class. Notice I said instructors, one was a NRA certified instructor, the other was a West Virginia State Trooper. As for the comment "I can never understand all the insistence on personal accountability. The only thing I can come up with is that its proponents find comfort in thinking things are black and white. In life however, there's a big gray area in which things are not so simple. ... Doesn't that make you well up with sadness and pity for the ones who died simply because they had the misfortune to have the most efficient means of killing themselves at their disposal? You should be ashamed of yourselves for talking about personal choice and "he made a decision," and all that crap.", MikeB, while I can agree that the world is not black and white, people make choices. Despite your feelings on the matter, people who commit suicide make a choice, no matter the instrument of their death. I know, I have had several members in my family commit suicide. Their either overdosed, failed, and tried again, or hung themselves. They felt it was their escape, and choose to do it. If they want to die, they will find a way. I have no pity for someone who kills themselves, only the people who have to clean up the proverbial mess. Suicides are cowards, just like those who go on rampages, and alcoholics. Personally that is the whole problem in the states these days, no body wants to take responsibility for their own actions. My father molested me as a child, so I molested kids. Its my parents fault that I killed this person. Its my bosses fault that I went on a rampage, if he had not fired me, I would not have killed x amount of people. Maybe instead of putting more restrictive gun laws on the books, we start enforcing the ones we have. Maybe we should take the time to be sure that our fellow man is not losing his mind. If we cared more about our neighbors, maybe they would not turn into spree killers. Maybe if we made sure that our fellow man, got the help they needed, this debate would be moot. Now that I have ranted, and possibly given you something to mull over, I would still like to hear your response.

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  27. Malakh, One thing we seem to disagree on is the degree of free agency that people are exercising. I don't believe people who are addicted or who have been abused as kids, for example, are free agents. Now that doesn't mean I excuse their actions. It simply means a judgment needs to be made about the percentage of diminished culpability, which then needs to be considered in determining guilt or issuing punishment.

    The idea of diminished agency especially applies to suicides. The best thing I ever heard to describe the act of suicide is, "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem." To me that quote encapsulates perfectly the idea that many of these guys are not simply making a choice.

    About gun laws and what further restrictions I would like, the main one is universal background checks on all transactions. The so-called gun show loophole, makes the restrictions you had to put up with totally useless in keeping guns from criminals.

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  28. MikeB,

    How do you square this statement:

    . I don't believe people who are addicted or who have been abused as kids, for example, are free agents. Now that doesn't mean I excuse their actions.with Victor Frankel's statement:

    Between stimulus and response is the freedom to choose.

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  29. About gun laws and what further restrictions I would like, the main one is universal background checks on all transactions.

    You and I clearly disagree about how many criminals get their guns from legal paperless private transactions at gun shows, but let's assume for the sake of discussion that you're right:

    Let's say we managed to build a free, anonymous system that hypotheticaly addressed privacy and "de-facto registration" concerns, but also gave indivuduals the ability to do federal instant background checks the same way dealers do from any telephone or internet connection, and made it mandatory to use that system before making a private sale.

    Would that satisfy your desire for more gun laws, or do you think that still wouldn't go far enough? Are there any other "common sense" restrictions you think gun owners are opposing that make them partially culpable for violent crime and suicide?

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  30. "I ever heard to describe the act of suicide is, "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem." To me that quote encapsulates perfectly the idea that many of these guys are not simply making a choice."

    Fine it's not "a choice", but a series of choices. I will admit, that when it comes to suicide, in some cases those around the person are in part responsible. However, the point was made that a person first chooses to end their live, then how. Let us go further back. If I am depressed, or suicidal, others around me would see this, and they can choose to have me committed. That process is not all that hard. I have seen it done first hand. Their first choice is to not seek help. I am sorry, but people know when they are or are not right, that does not mean that they know what is wrong with themselves, but they know something is not right. I know myself better than any other in this world. The next choice is to kill themselves. For them, in their mind, they see it as an escape from debt, a way to slip from an unhappy life, in other words to escape their problems in life. While a healthy person might realize that it is not an escape, some people do not.

    I will make a point here, using one of my uncles. He was an identical twin. His twin, died during open heart surgery. We have here a happily married many, who had a career that he loved, who upon hearing of his brothers death, wrote a suicide note, got a belt out of his closet and hung himself. No one saw this coming.

    Of course you say, "Well he was not in his right mind. He was upset over losing his twin brother". I say, "Yes I cannot even imagine what it was like for him." But then we look at his note. In his note he stated that he knew that he could live and function without Dale. He also said that he chose not to. That he would rather be dead, then live without his brother.

    I think what I am getting at MikeB, suicide or not is this, in our right mind or not, people make choices. If I am drunk, and impregnate a women, I am still responsible for my actions. If I am drunk, get into my vehicle and drive, and kill someone I am responsible. I notice now that you said that being abused or addicted does not always remove guilt. But I will stand behind the comment, that just because you have been dealt a bad hand in life, the choice to end it, or to commit crimes, comes to rest in your hands. Frankly people who were abused as children and commit crimes should be given a chance to be reformed. In truth, these people should be repaired before they are adults. They aren't so, I guess in a sense, using your opinion, I want to ask.

    Are you willing to share responsibility for gun crimes, and suicides, because your answer is to lower gun availability, not that we should fix the frist part of the problem?

    Now, when I say problem, I do not see guns as the problem. The problem is, my friend, social and economic problems. I will say, that Hollywood promotes movies like "Shoot'em Up", which makes gun violence look cool. We have shows like "24" which downplays the effects of violence. I have a room full of DVDs and VHS cassettes, in which I could list off hundreds of movies, in which violence is promoted as being perfectly alright. We have MMA, pro-wrasslin, boxing, football, and hockey to name a few sports, that are violent. Anybody remember when the 4-Horsemen "broke" Dusty Rhodes arm? Have you listened to any modern music recently? By modern I mean from the 80's to current music. Hell have you paid attention to the theme song for MASH? Those are only the social aspects in our world society. I have not included child abuse, or abuse by peers. Molestation does fall within the child abuse realm, even if it is performed by peers in the same cohort. Also not included in this, comes something George Carlin once said. We raise our children with the false belief that they are special, we hold their hands and tell them they can do anything they want. Then we put pressure on them to live to our standards. We live through them, and push our goals onto them. It is a stress they cannot always handle.

    Now we have the economical side of the problem. Now they cannot live up to our aspirations, they might find themselves, like me, stuck in a dead end job, that the only hope for promotion comes from the current supervisor quitting, getting fired, or going to jail. They do not make a living wage, nor can they look forward to a pay raise unless the minimal wage is increased. They could not afford to go to college, for whatever the reason. It matters if they could not qualify for grants, or loans, it does not matter if they could not get a scholarship. They are stuck, they are tired of watching their lives go by, with no apparent out.

    So again I ask, are you willing to take responsibility for their actions, given that you are focused on one part of the problem, not the whole issue at hand?

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  31. A system which "gave individuals the ability to do federal instant background checks the same way dealers do from any telephone or internet connection," would go a long way to satisfying me.

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  32. The devil being in the details, of course, I suspect you and I could probably come to an agreement on this.

    There are two or three potential abuses that would need to be addressed (and addressing them would be very easy, IMO), but given that I think this would probably fall within my "not a significant burden" range.

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  33. I've not read the above comments so excuse me if I'm repeating something previously said.

    I don't believe the guns are the problem here. The problem is the person handling the gun.

    One can kill another in the heat of an argument by way of knife or even fist. So, do we not limit the ability of knives or the ability to punch?

    It seems to me that gun control is just taking a little more away from our freedom.

    Yes, things like this will always happen with guns around. However, they will always happen if guns aren't around. I believe one should be more focused on helping these disturbed people, rather than furthering their anger by taking their freedoms away.

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  34. "I believe one should be more focused on helping these disturbed people, rather than furthering their anger by taking their freedoms away."

    I couldn't agree more. Gun violence is merely a symptom of the actual problem(s) and yet we have people who will focus only on the gun. They ignore the simple truth that a gun is an inanimate object, capable of nothing without intent and conscious, deliberate manipulation by a human being.

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