Starting Wednesday, those carrying concealed weapons are allowed to enter Arizona's roughly 5,300 establishments licensed to sell alcohol, as long as they don't drink. If those bar and restaurant owners don't want guns on the property, they must post a sign indicating that they are not allowed.
The law only requires one sign be posted in a "conspicuous" place, near the establishment's liquor license. But Al McCarthy, owner of Duke's Sports Bar & Grill in Scottsdale, put up three signs - one for each entrance to his property - "as soon as the bill passed" nearly three months ago.
"I want to make sure there's no confusion as to where this business stands on the issue," McCarthy said. "I have yet to have a customer to tell me they wish I hadn't put up the sign."
The Arizona Department of Liquor Licenses and Control reported that about 1,000 official laminated signs have been ordered. Others have been downloaded and printed for free from the department's web site.
Of course, not all bar and restaurant owners agree with Al McCarthy. Some feel "the presence of those carrying guns legally could deter trouble from those carrying guns illegally."
What's your opinion? Is the idea of good guys with guns outnumbering bad guys with guns a good approach? Wouldn't you expect that to lead to ever-escalating violence? Is it reasonable to think the good guys would win and put the bad guys out of business? And what about the peripheral damage? What about the increase in shootouts that would occur and all the stray bullets flying around? What about the misuse of guns during fights and brawls? What about the famous 10% of lawful gun owners who for one reason or another shouldn't have guns in the first place?
What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
There is a reason Mr. McCarthy hasn't heard from any customers about his sign. Those people who object are now ex-customers.
ReplyDeleteI would point out that most states you can legally carry in restaurants and bars, many of them you can even have a drink so long as you are never legally drunk.
ReplyDeleteShow me the problems.
Here's the response I put to your comment on my site:
ReplyDeletehttp://sensiblyprogressive.blogspot.com/2009/09/associated-press-apparently-they-lack.html
Even when I'm not going far or have no intention of buying something, I carry a credit card anyway. "Just in case."
When I put my kids in the car I have no intention of getting into an accident, but I still put them in a car seat.
My modern house is extremely unlikely to burn down, but I still keep fire extinguishers in several different places.
Does the above show "FEAR" or reasonable preparation?
Although I know that as a middle class white male I have little chance of being assaulted or murdered, I know it can happen, so when it's legal and I feel like it I carry a gun. Is that "fear" or preparation?
I certainly don't feel scared without a gun (as it seems like I'm often going to school or a work function -- and sometimes I just don't bother) but I do feel empowered when I have one.
Does it show courage or responsibility to know what can happen in the world and -- even though I'm legal to carry a gun and experienced with guns -- don't carryone? If that unlikely/unthinkable but possible assault does happen, and I'm giving a eulogy at the funeral of my children and wife, how much pride should I take in the fact that I didn't show "fear" by carrying a firearm that day?
On the other hand ... given the facts i stated above ... is there ANYTHING other than fear in the stated opinions of the bartenders? If you don't want guns in your bar, just put up a sign. And you have the same sittation as before.
There's no law prohibiting it here in DE and I've NEVER heard of a single incident at a bar/restaurant that serves alcohol involving someone lawfully open carrying or CCW'ing. Oh, and we can legally have a drink while carrying too.
ReplyDeleteSame goes for PA, where I also carry. I've carried in PA and sat at the bar. Guess I was lucky my gun didn't jump out, force me to get drunk and then start shooting.
My opinion, as usual, goes back to education and not quite 'getting' what their options really are. The owners essentially have two choices:
ReplyDelete1) Only allow armed criminals into their establishment.
2) Allowed armed criminals AND armed citizens who have undergone a federal background check into their establishment.
Really though, this law should have NO impact on crime whatsoever. The only ones who would be using firearms in such a location would be criminals who would have been using them otherwise. Yes, there might be some idiot with a permit who does something stupid, but statistics have shown that the odds are much lower than the general population (sorry, can't recall the source, but if I recall correctly, essentially the research was an evaluation of the likelihood of a member of the general public committing a crime vs. a concealed permit holder committing a crime).
Stray rounds hitting bystanders? How often does this happen except in gang or drug-related shootings where gangs or drug-types are shooting at each other? I almost never see it reported, even when the police accidentally hit a bystander...so yes, it COULD happen, but it doesn't seem to be a huge menace to society.
"Is the idea of good guys with guns outnumbering bad guys with guns a good approach?"
ReplyDeleteYes. Go join the police force or a community action group instead of thinking your going to save the world with bullets.
"What about the famous 10% of lawful gun owners who for one reason or another shouldn't have guns in the first place?"
Exactly. These people are defended by those in NRA and the right from being looked into by these insane pushes against anything reeking of gun legislation.
When know facts about gun deaths in the US and stop listening to bias media they almost always come around to gun control.
When know facts about gun deaths in the US and stop listening to bias media they almost always come around to gun control.
ReplyDeleteWhat facts?
I assume you get yours from the VPC and Brady pressers.
Eric,
ReplyDeleteThe irony is thick with you...or maybe you are just thick...I don't know
"Is the idea of good guys with guns outnumbering bad guys with guns a good approach?"
Yes. Go join the police force or a community action group instead of thinking your going to save the world with bullets.
Carrying my firearm with me is a community action group. I am a member of a group of people who are dedicated to stopping crime -- CHL holder in specific and gun owners in more general terms.
We don't advocate running away from criminals or letting them have their way with women and children. We advocate personal responsibility in stopping crime.
I'll echo MikeW, what facts are you looking at?
80% of crime committed by gangs and drug runners? check - according to the FBI.
a small fraction of 1% of convictions in Texas attributed to CHL holders? Check --according to the Texas Department of Public Safety.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2007.pdf
More Guns = less Crime and death? Check --according to John Lott and many others.
All the facts point to the same conclusion....allowing people to freely exercise their constitutionally protected rights does not increase crime or deaths.
"When know facts about gun deaths in the US and stop listening to bias media they almost always come around to gun control."
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm sure you have evidence to support your hypothesis.
Yeah Third, all of that obvious pro-gun, pro 2nd Amendment bias in the mainstream media!
ReplyDeleteFunny how the "facts" anti's claim to have never ever materialize. Of course it's hard to cite something that doesn't exist.
"What's your opinion? Is the idea of good guys with guns outnumbering bad guys with guns a good approach? Wouldn't you expect that to lead to ever-escalating violence?"
ReplyDeleteIt depends. Do you believe that having more police on duty will lead to ever escalating violence?
"Yes. Go join the police force or a community action group instead of thinking your going to save the world with bullets."
Isn't that exactly what police do? Save the world with bullets?
Wouldn't you expect that to lead to ever-escalating violence? Is it reasonable to think the good guys would win and put the bad guys out of business? And what about the peripheral damage? What about the increase in shootouts that would occur and all the stray bullets flying around? What about the misuse of guns during fights and brawls?
ReplyDeleteSurely after a few decades of states allowing concealed carry we must have evidence of this happening for you to raise the issue. I mean, shootouts are not something that fly under the radar. If states with concealed carry have had an increase in shootouts, then there must be data (heck, I'll even accept cherry picked data) showing this.
Beuhler...
Beuhler...
Wow MikeB. I see your imagination is running wild again. You should really seek treatment for HPD
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder
Now that SCOTUS is going to hear a second ammendment incorporation case, are your emotions running high? What if SCOTUS rules that the second ammendment is to be held against the states and given given "strict scrutiny"? What emotional reaction will you have then?
Something to plan for.
Say I own the bar, and I've got good guys with guns and bad guys with guns but I don't really know which is which because none of the people are regulars.
ReplyDeleteIf a gunfight breaks out, wouldn't I be justified in shooting everyone with a gun? After all, it's my bar.
I'm waiting for that lying scum Paul Helmke to repeat this myth:
ReplyDelete. . . pushing restaurants to mix guns and alcohol by requiring them to allow guns in their establishments.
Speaking of Arizona, though, I'm surprised we're not hearing more anguished bleating about the guns on campus law--granted, it's not a carry law, but it's still the kind of thing I expected the anti-self-defense crowd to loudly soil their little panties over.
Reputo - Every time gun laws have been weakened the anti's have screamed "THE SKY IS FALLING" and predicted blood in the streets and all manner of chaos.
ReplyDeleteEach and every time the reality of what actually occurred subsequent to those laws being weakened has proven them dead wrong.
They simply repeat the same old tired, hysterical BS over and over.
Yeah, MikeW, but that's only because you're looking at reality!
ReplyDeleteYou can't DO that if you're devoted to the anti-gun cause!
Reality only gets in the way of the agenda, and must be avoided at all costs!
Beowulf beat me to it, but it bears repeating...
ReplyDelete". . . pushing restaurants to mix guns and alcohol by requiring them to allow guns in their establishments." - Paul Helmke
Two flat out-lies in one sentence coming from the guy you have determined to be a reliable source of info.
Arizonians won't be allowed to drink while carrying and all the owner has to do is post a sign if he wants to.
BTW, here in Oregon, I can legally go into a bar carrying concealed or openly and enjoy a beer.
The antis are wetting their panties over Arizona's law when there are already scores of states that allow this AND DRINK as long as you stay below .08 BAC.
But you already knew that, right?
VOR, I very well may suffer from HPD, but it's some of my favorite commenters who vividly picture themselves in shootouts with the government's goons, going down in a blaze of glory for God and individualism. Are you one of them?
ReplyDeleteThane, Thanks for stopping by. Are you one of the former customers of that establishment?
I have been a guest of a customer of Duke's a handful of times. I enjoyed the food and drink. I certainly wouldn't suggest going there having read of the beliefs of the owner, although I'm not going to picket the place (his signs and the news coverage will produce results enough for me).
ReplyDeleteThane, Thanks for the personal report. Do you think bars like that pick up some customers too.
ReplyDeleteIf I lived there, and my usual hangout didn't put up the sign, I'd probably look for one that did and start frequenting it. You know what I mean?
In referance to the person talking about good guys with guns an d bad guys with guns, the bartender can ussualy tell... the bad guys are pointing the gun at the bartender and the good guys are pointing their guns at the bad guy!!??
ReplyDeleteAlso, did anyone notice where most of the mass shootings take place??...in "GUN FREE ZONES" . Where is the safe places to go?
ReplyDelete