Oh, wow..another one!

There can be only so many massacres before people start getting pissed off and pushing back...



O’BRIEN: Okay. I think with all due respect, are you not going to answer my question, because I guess — I just want you to tell me what you would be comfortable to support, and I get it, it will be part of a conversation, but I think there have been a number of things on the table and I don’t feel like you’re telling me, you know, should people not be able to buy high-capacity magazines? What are you willing to say would be a good start, that would you bring to the table in control? Any conversation about guns?
SCOTT: Well, you know, my focus is, one, respect the families, mourn their losses, make sure our schools are safe, and then start the conversation and listen to the Floridians. What I do every day is travel the state, almost, pretty much every day, and listen to Floridians and get their ideas and then come back, based on those ideas of what we can improve.
O’BRIEN: Well, I hope it all goes — all those conversations turn into meaningful conversations before I get to go out and cover another tragedy of which we’ve now done a bunch of them.

People are beginning to get fed up with the status quo.

Winthrop Eagles coach Pat Kelsey, seizing what he believed was a special opportunity, gave an impassioned address Tuesday in response to the recent Sandy Hook Elementary School killings.

"When I walked into the press conference, I had never been in a chair with a microphone in front of me with that many cameras," Kelsey said. "Something came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or what, but it struck me that I had a platform that very few people in the world have."

He expressed thankfulness for the ability to go home and kiss his daughters, ages 4 and 5, who are barely younger than the youngest Newtown victims. And just as he prodded his Panther teammates in 1992, he challenged national leaders to bring about any changes necessary to prevent future tragedies.

"Parents, teachers, rabbis, priests, coaches, everybody needs to step up. This has to be a time for change," Kelsey said. "And I know this microphone's powerful right now, because we're playing the fourth-best team in the country." 

Thank you for saying what you did, Coach Kelsey.  I wish your team the best.

Gail Collins on the Mass Shootings

NYT

We know the story. The shooter is a man, usually a young man, often with a history of mental illness. Sometimes in a rage over a lost job, sometimes just completely unhinged. In the wake of the Newtown shootings, the air was full of experts discussing the importance of psychological counseling. “We need to look at what drives a crazy person to do these kind of actions,” said Representative Cathy McMorris Rodgers of Washington, one of the highest-ranking Republicans in the House. 

Every country has a sizable contingent of mentally ill citizens. We’re the one that gives them the technological power to play god. 

This is all about guns — access to guns and the ever-increasing firepower of guns. Over the past few years we’ve seen one shooting after another in which the killer was wielding weapons holding 30, 50, 100 bullets. I’m tired of hearing fellow citizens argue that you need that kind of firepower because it’s a pain to reload when you’re shooting clay pigeons. Or that the founding fathers specifically wanted to make sure Americans retained their right to carry rifles capable of mowing down dozens of people in a couple of minutes.

Exactly. What's your opinion?

Please leave a comment.

12 Facts about Mass Shootings

The Washington Post

1. Shooting sprees are not rare in the United States. 

Mother Jones has tracked and mapped every shooting spree in the last three decades. “Since 1982, there have been at least 61 mass murders carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii,” they found. And in most cases, the killers had obtained their weapons legally:

The 2nd Worst Mass Shooting in U.S. History

I blame the gun-rights movement.

The reason I say that is this shooting, like all the others, is the direct result of loose gun laws and the resultant gun availability to unfit people. The gun-rights folks, led by the NRA, are responsible for keeping things that way, and in many cases, making them even worse. They spend lots of money and even more time and effort on the internet spreading their false doctrine that more guns means less crime. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In the next days we'll hear countless pro-gun fanatics claim that this wouldn't have happened if the school hadn't been a gun-free zone. They frequently claim that mass shooters calculatingly select gun-free zones for their attacks. This is a double lie.

The truth is, as was probably the case today, spree shooters generally go to the place of their grievance regardless of its gun control status. And, as we saw in Phoenix last year, when the shooting takes place where guns are allowed, concealed carry permit holders are powerless to stop it.

Proper gun control laws would eliminate some of these incidents. Gun availability to the unfit, whether they be dangerous criminals or the mentally ill, could easily be diminished by simply closing the private-sale loophole. Borderline psychotics could in many cases be identified before they act, with improved mental health background checks and basic mental health testing.  Gun-rights activists are preventing this from happening. That's why they are to blame.

Hopefully, the Presidents tearful remarks today will augur well for the long-overdue changes we need in our gun laws and our attitudes of accepting these all-too-frequent shootings.

Another School Shooting!

How many of these have happened so far this week? Isn't mass shooting becoming a daily event in the US?




Ah, the price of freedom!

Don't scenes like this make you so proud to be American?

Chuck and Carolyn Engeldinger, parents of recent Minneapolis mass shooter Andrew Engeldinger Interviewed on MPR

Cross posted from Penigma

This is an excellent, but heartbreaking interview:


October is Mental Health Awareness month.

We do NO screening whatsoever for mental illness before a person can buy a firearm, other than in the instance of purchases from a FFL seller checking the NICS data base.

Unfortunately, that data base is painfully incomplete, even in the cases of the names of known, adjudicated mentally ill individuals. It is extremely difficult, and costly, to have an individual adjudicated mentally ill. Many of those who pose the greatest risk to themselves and others, like James Holmes the (alleged) shooter in Aurora, Colorado, like Andrew Engeldinger, in the Minneapolis mass shooting, like Ian Stawicki in Seattle, like Jared Loughner in the Tucson mass shooting, like Neil Prescott in Maryland, have no barriers to buying an unlimited amount of firearms, including assault-style weapons, expanded capacity magazines, massive quantities of ammunition, or body armor to resist intervention by law enforcement.  All of the above were diagnosed and treated for mental illness, all of them were recognized by the people around them as dangerous.

This is by no means an exhaustive list; these were just the first few off the top of my head.

But no one could stop them from exercising their 2nd amendment rights when they planned to shoot people.  Not law enforcement, not their mental health personnel, not law enforcement.

Not only do we not have any screening that prevents dangerously mentally ill people from slaughtering innocent people in large numbers, we don't even test for the most rudimentary necessary qualities to safely and appropriately use a firearm, like the eye test we require to drive a car.

The basic rules of firearm safety require that you be able to see what you shoot at, and that you be aware of what is around and behind what you are aiming at, or you do not shoot.

Not only do we require no minimal testing or screening to own a firearm, we require no check whatsoever to privately transfer a firearm to another person.  You aren't supposed to sell or give a firearms to someone who is deranged, or a drug addict, or convicted of a crime.  But people do it all the time, and beyond that, gun owners are not required to keep their firearms secure from theft or abuse.

We have more than 3 murder suicides a week in this country, involving two or more people, where one of more of those who are killed did not want to die, often women and children.  One could argue that anyone who takes that route out of this world is at least temporarily dangerously mentally ill.  Certainly their judgment is not what we consider normal in function.

We MUST stop allowing access to firearms to override every other consideration.  It is time we stop treating lethal force as an option everyone should have, and recognize the horrific harm done by people with it, not just in homicides and suicides, or injuries, but in accidents, in intimidation in domestic violence, and other circumstances.

Civilized countries do not condone everyone having lethal weapons. It is not necessary, it is not appropriate, and it is not the case - as pro-gunners claim - that we have to accept criminals having firearms EITHER.  In other countries, firearms are not common in their crime incidents; they are the exception, not the rule. 

We shouldn't condone or allow such widespread lethal force and violence either.  There are better alternatives. But we need to begin with our gun culture, which argues against any impediment, even if it means unlimited access for the dangerously mentally ill to lethal weapons to engage in mass killings.

We have a choice, and it is time we exercised a better one than the one we have now.

I will post the second part of the interview tomorrow.  My heart aches for these parents, and for the family and friends of all those who were the victims of Andrew Engeldinger.  This should have been an avoidable tragedy.

For those readers who may not be able to easily access the recording, here is an edited transcript of the MPR News interview:

ST. PAUL, Minn. — Many lives changed the afternoon of Sept. 27 at a small but growing Minneapolis business called Accent Signage Systems.
An employee, Andrew Engeldinger, had just lost his job, and he responded by opening fire, killing six people and wounding others. He took his own life with the weapon as well.
"It is hard. We have lost our son. And we know that all these other families are suffering due to his actions and that's very hard," said Carolyn Engeldinger, who, along with her husband Chuck, spoke with MPR News.
The Engeldingers said their son had shown signs of mental illness for years.
"The person he became bore no resemblance to the son we knew and raised," she said. "He was never violent, just a normal little kid who brought us a lot of joy."
Below is an edited transcript of Cathy Wurzer's interview with the Engeldingers. The second part of the interview airs Wednesday.

Minneapolis Death Toll 6

This is an update on our earlier report which said only 2 dead.

6:07PM EST September 29. 2012 - A gunman who killed five people and injured three others at a small Minneapolis sign company before taking his own life had been fired that morning,according to local media.

The dead included company founder Reuven Rahamim, who founded the small company, Accent Signage Systems, which makes interior signs for companies and industries.
The gunman died of a self-inflicted gunshot in the company's basement.

Typical mass shooting with no regard for whether the place was a gun free zone or not. His only consideration was that this was the place of his grievance.

What's your opinion?

How Mass Shootings are dealt with in the USA

From the Daily Kos, which I am quoting in total since it is too accurate as to how these things are dealt with in the States:

Here we go again. Another mass shooting, this time a Sikh temple in Wisconsin.
Here's what's going to happen:
1. The police and the emergency respondents will do their absolute best to investigate the crime and assist the wounded. That's actually happening right now. The truth is, our police, although they have their issues, are generally pretty good at what they do, and our EMTs and emergency care facilities are excellent.
2. There will be substantial media attention, the extent of which will depend on the number of people who were shot. If enough people are shot, a special mournful dirge will be written (as it was with the Aurora shootings)
3. In a day or so, various politicians will state that "our hearts and prayers are with the victims and their families."
4. Many people will find themselves without medical insurance to cover their injuries, and will have to beg the community to pay for their bills, or the medical providers to reduce or waive them.
5. Some freakin' jackass like Allen West will claim that if he had been there packing heat, he could have shot the perpetrator dead. And there will be "other blame the victims for being unarmed"
6. The gun industry will benefit as sales of whatever weapon was used here will go up. The more people who are killed the better the sales will be.
7. People like me who criticize the ready availability of firearms capable of this type of mass killings will be criticized as "politicizing" the event.
8. The whole thing will be forgotten by the general public (but certainly not the victims) in two weeks, max.
9. Another massacre will occur. Repeat steps 1 through 8.

YEEHAAA! Another mass shooting!

'Seven killed' in Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting! Maybe gun control won't stop mass killings, but not having gun control definitely doesn't stop them!

Did You Hear About the Shooting?

WhoWhatWhy has an interesting piece about mass shootings:

One of the most striking things about shooting incidents in America…is how common they are. Another striking thing is how often the media fails to note the previous point, or to explore what that means—or what might be done about it.

Late last night, a gunman walked into a movie theater in a Denver suburb, killed 12 and injured 50. Two days earlier a gunman opened fire outside a bar in Tuscaloosa, Alabama in an incident in which at least 17 were hurt. These were not really so exceptional. Every year, about 100,000 Americans are victims of gun violence, and every week, people calmly enter our schools, our workplaces, our leisure gathering spots and open fire on innocent bystanders.

Whenever we tweet or post about these, often the only people we hear from are those who say we need more guns not less. “If I had been there with my gun….” The problem, of course, is the public at large is being asked to arm everyone and trust that, while the rest of us cower, “the right people” will quickly dispatch “the wrong people” in the modern equivalent of the Shootout at the OK Corral. No mention of whether the teacher is supposed to be armed…when a nut walks into a preschool and starts firing away.

Given that there have been 125 Mass Killings since Columbine, you think some serious solutions would be mentioned, yet it seems that there is the consistent response of inaction, or worse, the loosening of restrictions which make it easier for these incidents to happen.

This Is How The Colorado Shooter Was Armed -- And Sadly It Was All Legal

This is a cross-post with the New Trajectory blog, HERE.

When you picture someone who is dressed and armed for self-defense and conceal carry, what do you picture?  I picture someone dressed normal, except for a handgun strapped under their jacket or in a holster at their waist or in their purse.

When you picture someone who is dressed and armed for hunting, what do you picture?  I picture someone in rugged outdoor clothes, a hunter-red vest and hat, and a long rifle.

From the Denver Post online.

When you see the picture to the right, does this fit either of those images?

To the gun lobby, this picture is an image of "freedom" and self-defense.

James Eagon Holmes, the young man who opened fire on a crowded theater of men, women, and children, who killed 12, wounded another 58, and terrorized hundreds, and who set booby trap bombsall over his apartment, was dressed and armed like this, according to an article in the Denver Post today.

From the article (I've added bolding):

He also came dressed for battle, wearing a gas mask, a combat helmet, a ballistic vest and armor protecting his legs, throat and groin.

Law enforcement officials said Friday that they are investigating whether James Eagan Holmes, the 24-year-old suspect, was legally eligible to own all those weapons and combat gear. But they had found no evidence of a criminal history that would have prohibited him from buying the weapons used to massacre moviegoers at a midnight Batman premiere in Aurora.

His only run-in with police: an October 2011 speeding ticket.

Aurora Police Chief Daniel Oates said Holmes brought a pair of .40-caliber Glock pistols, an AR-15 military-style rifle and a Remington shotgun to the Century Aurora 16 complex, but it was unclear whether he used them all as he strode through the theater, shooting people apparently at random. One Glock pistol was found in his white Hyundai when police arrested him outside the car, he said. Oates said Holmes purchased 6,000 rounds of ammunition and multiple magazines, including a drum magazine able to hold 100 cartridges, from stores and on the Internet.

Oates also said investigators have not yet determined how many shots were fired or how many gun magazines were brought to the theater to carry out the midnight massacre.

But "many, many rounds were fired," he said.

According to one law enforcement source, the gunman could easily have shot police officers as they approached because of all his combat gear but sat calmly by his car instead.

The AR-15 is a semi-automatic version of the military M-16 rifle, first marketed for civilian sales in 1963.

Glock, an Austrian gunmaker, has become the leading seller of semi-automatic pistols to U.S. law enforcement agencies and offers a variety of .40-caliber pistols to civilians as well.

The Remington Model 870 is a U.S.-made pump-action shotgun used by the public for sport shooting and hunting and is often carried by law enforcement and military personnel.

Holmes purchased all of his weapons legally, passing background checks, and purchased the thousands of rounds of ammo online.

What do you think of when you see that image?  I think of military special forces or SWAT teams.  Yet everything he wore or was armed with was completely legal to purchase and possess in America.  In some places, such as Arizona, where unlicensed "open carry" is allowed, you can walk down the street dressed and armed this way, and there's not a thing the police can do to stop you.

Is this the cost of our "freedoms," as the NRA defines them?

It's time to put a limit on what dangerous people are able to buy in the United States.  It's time to re-instate the Assault Weapons Ban, prohibit high-capacity ammo clips, and better regulate large sales of ammunition and weaponry.

ANOTHER EFFING MASS SHOOTING!

This time in a Denver suburb.

When the fuck are people in the US going to get their shit together about the Second Amendment--

The issue is standing army v. a militia--not "gun rights".

Remember what Justice William O. Douglas Said about the Second Amendment in Adams v. William, 407 U.S. 143, 92 S. Ct. 1921, 32 L. Ed. 2d 612 (1972)::

The police problem is an acute one not because of the Fourth Amendment, but because of the ease with which anyone can acquire a pistol. A powerful lobby dins into the ears of our citizenry that these gun purchases are constitutional rights protected by the Second Amendment, which reads, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

There is under our decisions no reason why stiff state laws governing the purchase and possession of pistols may not be enacted. There is no reason why pistols may not be barred from anyone with a police record. There is no reason why a State may not require a purchaser of a pistol to pass a psychiatric test. There is no reason why all pistols should not be barred to everyone except the police.

The leading case is United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174, upholding a federal law making criminal the shipment in interstate commerce of a sawed-off shotgun. The law was upheld, there being no evidence that a sawed-off shotgun had "some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia." Id. at 178. The Second Amendment, it was held, "must be interpreted and applied" with the view of maintaining a "militia."

The Militia which the States were expected to maintain and train is set in contrast with Troops which they were forbidden to keep without the consent of Congress. The sentiment of the time strongly disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense of country and laws could be [p151] secured through the Militia -- civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.

Id. at 178-179.

Critics say that proposals like this water down the Second Amendment. Our decisions belie that argument, for the Second Amendment, as noted, was designed to keep alive the militia. But if watering-down is the mood of the day, I would prefer to water down the Second rather than the Fourth Amendment. I share with Judge Friendly a concern that the easy extension of Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, to "possessory offenses" is a serious intrusion on Fourth Amendment safeguards.

He knows a lot more about Miller than that fat asshole Scalia and his clone Scalito.

ANOTHER MASS SHOOTING, This One in Alabama, a 'Gun Friendly' State Five shot to death

We have too many homicides, too many people who are the victims of people with firearms.

These are five more; it remains to be seen if there will be any more squeezed in before the end of the first month of 2012.

Countries where there are fewer firearms don't have these occurrences; there is a direct correlation between the number of guns, and gun violence.  Fewer guns, fewer incidents of gun violence, fewer mass incidents of murder.

Neighbors expressed surprise.  It's not all that surprising; this is what happens when there are guns around, all too often.

Every damn gun used to commit these terrible killings starts out as a legal gun purchase, and then, consistently, one or more people screws up, someone does something wrong, and one of those previously legal guns that were not involved in gun violence ends up contributing to one of these mass shootings.  Clearly, there is not enough responsibility in gun ownership.  Clearly, there are too damned many people who put greater importance on having their fetish object than on the lives of other people.  That is not a right, it is a wrong.

From the AP and MSNBC.com:
 
Jeff Roberts  /  The Birmingham News via AP

Five bodies were found inside this home in Birmingham, Ala., on Sunday.

Police: 3 arrested in shooting deaths of 5 in Ala. home

'Most people are in a state of shock,' neighbor says

updated 2 hours 39 minutes ago

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. — Police in Alabama say they have arrested three suspects in the deaths of five people whose bodies were found by officers investigating a possible robbery.

Investigators arrested the three Sunday night, less than a day after the five were found shot to death in the rental home, Birmingham police said in a statement.
Police said the suspects have been interviewed by detectives and are being held in the Birmingham City Jail as the investigation continues. Police have not said what charges are being filed.
Authorities haven't released the names of the three people who were taken into custody or the five people who were killed.
'State of shock' Brenda Houston, who lives across the street from the west Birmingham house where the bodies were found, said the house had been rented for about a year and a half by a woman in her late 40s and her son and brothers.
"They would speak to us, and that's all we knew," she said. "We didn't know their names but they were always friendly."
Houston, 64, said her street was a quiet one filled with older residents who were friendly with each other. She said there was a constant stream of visitors coming in and out of the home, but that the residents never seemed to cause any disturbances.
"Most people are in a state of shock. They never had any trouble over there," Houston said. "I never seen the police over there. This was really strange that this happened. It wasn't like they were real rowdy."