Dr. George Tiller, whose Kansas women's clinic frequently took center stage in the U.S. debate over abortion, was shot and killed while serving as an usher at his Wichita church Sunday morning, police said.I found it fascinating that he was killed in church. Perhaps this is where two of our favorite discussions merge, abortion rights and the right to carry guns in church. I wonder if guns were allowed in this particular church in Wichita. Do you think that would have mattered, one way or the other?Wichita police said a 51-year-old man from the Kansas City, Kansas, area was in custody in connection with the slaying of Tiller, who was one of the few U.S. physicians who still performed late-term abortions.
The killing, which came about 16 years after Tiller survived a shooting outside his Wichita clinic, took place shortly after 10 a.m. Sunday at Reformation Lutheran Church. Officers found the 67-year-old dead in the foyer, police said.
Why do you think some pro-life activists do this? Do you think there is a grassroots support of this kind of thing? Remember when Eric Rudolph was in hiding, supposedly getting assistance from the support base?
My favorite one is the 1994 murder of Dr. Britton in Pensacola Florida. There, deep in the Bible belt, Dr. Britton was performing abortions which some considered murder. Paul Hill, the former minister, murdered Dr. Britton for that. And the State of Florida, what did they do? They murdered Paul Hill.If Tiller was killed because of his work, he would be the fourth U.S. physician killed over abortion since 1993.
In 1998, a sniper killed Dr. Barnett Slepian in his Amherst, New York, home. Anti-abortion activist James Kopp was later arrested in France and is serving life in prison.
In 1994, Dr. John Bayard Britton and one of his volunteer escorts were shot and killed outside an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida. Paul Hill, a former minister, was convicted of the killings and executed in 2003.
And in 1993, another doctor, David Gunn, was shot to death outside another Pensacola clinic. His killer, Michael Griffin, is serving a life sentence.
Has there ever been a better example of the absurdity of using violence as the answer, including state sanctioned violence in the form of capital punishment?
What's your opinion?
Dr. Tiller was repeatedly targeted by FOX.
ReplyDeleteWhat is terrorism?
We have been made to focus on the idea that terrorism is something alien. Crazy foreigners are terrorists, yet the most horrendous acts of "terrorism" in this country are committed by American citizens.
The wave of hate on the right wing blogs today is pretty fearsome to behold. It is vvery easy to equate the hateful rejoicing and justification for the murder of Dr. Tilman in his church with the extreme language on Militant Fundamentalist Islamic sites.
Guns and Hate, Hate and Guns...no matter how you mix the equation, it comes out the same.
Why do you think some pro-life activists do this?
ReplyDeleteWhat's this "some" pro-life activists? Are you implying that the murderer was not acting alone?
Or perhaps you're referring to the murder of abortion providers in general.
If Tiller was killed because of his work, he would be the fourth U.S. physician killed over abortion since 1993.
The fourth in 16 years. Does one killing every 4 years constitute an "epidemic of violence," then?
The Huffington Post today had an interesting piece, pointing out the correlation between violence directed at abortion doctors and clinics and the presence of a pro-choice president in the White House. In all of Bush's 8 years, only one clinic bombing occurred. In all of Clinton's 8 years, though, those 4 doctors were killed (and Dr. Tiller was shot) and something like a dozen clinics were bombed.
ReplyDeleteThe article also notes that there has been an uptick in "chatter" since Obama was elected. Threats against clinics have increased about 5 fold. The concern, then, is that this is just the beginning of a new wave of violence. So it's not exactly "one killing every 4 years."
"The fourth in 16 years. Does one killing every 4 years constitute an "epidemic of violence," then?"In Mike's world the actions of a few murderous nuts speak for everyone who share a similar viewpoint. Apparently he applies this to anything with which he disagrees, not just gun owners.
ReplyDeleteHe wants to paint pro-lifer's as nuts, so fact that this is exceedingly rare and quite obviously NOT representative of the pro-life movement is irrelevant.
BTW - I'm pro choice Mike.
Does one killing every 4 years make it kind of okay, then?
ReplyDeleteWhat is your point?
Pro-life... pro-life... These people aren't pro-life, they're killing doctors! What kind of pro-life is that? What, they'll do anything they can to save a fetus but if it grows up to be a doctor they just might have to kill it?They're not pro-life. You know what they are? They're anti-woman. Simple as it gets, anti-woman. They don't like them. They don't like women.They believe a woman's primary role is to function as a brood mare for the state. --George Carlin
ReplyDeleteMike W., You're pro-choice but anti-Mikeb, that's your problem. Even when you agree with me, you have to argue.
ReplyDeleteWhat 45 Superman said about 4 in 16 years is total bullshit and a typical twisted manipulation so beloved of you guys.
4 abortion providers were killed in 16 years, at least according to the article. There may have been more for all I know. But during that same time there were a number of other deaths, other than doctors. Remember Eric Rudolph's bomb that killed a cop and hurt a nurse. Add all those to the number 4. Then you can add all the non fatal attacks in which people were hurt, some of the badly, and property damaged. That counts too. And when you're done counting all that up, flip over to some of the right wing web sites and check out the comments. I'm sure you know the ones I'm talking about. The same types who helped their hero Eric Rudolph live off the land for a few years are now applauding the latest assassination.
Add all that up, all that hate and violence, and then tell us it's negligible.
I never said anything about the killings being "negligible"--my point is that they're carried out by a vanishingly small number of violent nutcases. The responsibility for the evil they wreak is 100% on those extremely few nuts.
ReplyDeleteForgot to mention--you act, Mike, as if I "left out" people other than doctors who have been murdered by "right to life" nuts, and that I did the same with incidents in which no one was killed, but violent crime was committed.
ReplyDeleteI quoted the article, and posted my response. If anything was "left out," yell at the authors of the article, for not bringing up those facts.
my point is that they're carried out by a vanishingly small number of violent nutcases. The responsibility for the evil they wreak is 100% on those extremely few nuts.EXACTLY my point as well, and yet when I say it I'm "anti-MikeB." The point Mike, is that it is NOT acceptable to denigrate everyone who supports a particular cause just because a tiny number of folks who share the same support decide to engage in violent, criminal actions.
ReplyDeleteIt's unacceptable whether it's guns, the abortion debate, "greenies & the violent eco-terrorists, or any other number of causes.
45superman said, "I quoted the article, and posted my response. If anything was "left out," yell at the authors of the article, for not bringing up those facts."
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid that's not exactly what happened. You quoted an article all right, but went on to say this:
"Does one killing every 4 years constitute an "epidemic of violence," then?"
When I and S. pointed out the omissions, they were your omissions as well as the original author's.
Arguing with you is like when you get change at the cash register and there's a mistake. Almost always the "honest" mistake is in the store's favor. Ever notice that?
I'm afraid that's not exactly what happened. You quoted an article all right, but went on to say this . . .
ReplyDeleteLike I said, I quoted the article, and posted my response to a point made by the article. That's not an "omission"--it's responding to what was said, rather than using my psychic powers to respond to what wasn't said, but you apparently think should have been.
Not my problem.