7 killed in 6 Chicago shootings
Spate of weekend gun slayings reported across city
The article chronicles the grisly details of the terrible violence that is itself becoming synonymous with Chicago. My pro-gun friends claim this proves gun-control laws do not work, since Chicago has very strict laws. I've always countered that argument with the idea that if Chicago were an inaccessible island, it might hold true, but with Indiana only a short drive away and even states like Virginia and Georgia within reach, claims to the ineffectiveness of gun laws make no sense.
The same folks often refute the famous anti-gun claim that more guns means more gun violence. To that I suggest a little thought experiment. Let's imagine Chicago with extremely lax gun laws, you know the kind where almost anybody can walk into a gun shop and buy a gun. Over the next year or so the sales of firearms would skyrocket in that city, making gun availability far more prevalent than it is today.
Do you think there would be less gun violence or more? To me that's practically a rhetorical question, the answer seems so obvious. I can't imagine how anyone would fail to see the right answer.
What's your opinion? Is the problem with Chicago that there aren't enough guns there? Along with addressing the other factors, social and cultural and economic, do you think something needs to be done about the gun availability in Chicago specifically and in the country generally?
Please tell us what you think.
It's no surprise crime is up in Chicago. Prohibition creates crime. It doesn't matter if it's alcohol or guns.
ReplyDeleteWell, hey hey...Crime is so down in the Netherlands that they have to close 8 prisons!
ReplyDeleteFire arms are sure as hell illegal there.
They have to close the 8 prisons inspite of the deal they have with Belgium to take their excess prisoners. Here in realtively gun psychosis free Europe, we can't keep the jails filled!
Again, guns are not illegal here. Most of the folks I know have a gun in the house, it's just not part of the religion.
MikeB,
ReplyDeleteI've always countered that argument with the idea that if Chicago were an inaccessible islandSo, how do you explain the United Kingdom....an island nation. Its crime rate has INCREASED since the imposition of draconian gun control laws.
And yet crime across the rest of the nation is down while sales of firearms and the carrying of firearms is skyrocketing.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.fbi.gov/ucr/08aprelim/table_1.html
Oh, BTW, crime actually isn't 'up' in Chicago as compared to last year so your header is false.
"Here in realtively gun psychosis free Europe, we can't keep the jails filled!"
ReplyDeleteAnd why is that? Specifically in your example of the Netherlands? Could it be because there's a tolerance of drug use that we don't have in the U.S. Most of Europe does not share our "War on Drugs" idiocy.
And yes, as Third says, we've had record firearms & ammo sales for the past year, and yet the preliminary FBI data shows that crime is down across the board. I thought more guns = more "gun flow" = more crime......oh wait, you mean it's not true?
SHOCKING!
Come on Mike, you know the reason why crime is up in Chicago is because of those crazy black people and their crazy gang wars.
ReplyDeleteMiddle class NRA-loving white guys have more important things to do than participate in gang wars - like terrorizing abortion clinics and illegal immigrants.
Phuck's comment is meant to be sarcasm, but it's actually accurate.
ReplyDeleteViolent crime in this country isn't perpetrated primarily by "NRA-Loving White Guys." It's perpetrated by young black men under age 25.
After the Heller decision, violent crime in DC has gone down: http://www.dailymail.com/Opinion/DonSurber/200905270619
ReplyDeleteImagine that. More gun availability and less crime.
Aw, poor PP. Since the facts don't fit your worldview, you need to play the race card. Kevin B. actually just posted something on that tactic:
ReplyDeletehttp://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2009/06/what-your-kids-are-actually-learning-in.html
Middle class NRA-loving white guys have more important things to do than participate in gang wars - like terrorizing abortion clinics and illegal immigrants.
ReplyDeleteYeah--the number of violent crimes against abortion clinics and foreign invaders (sometimes referred to as "illegal immigrants") in the whole country might be as much as . . . what . . . one percent of the number of violent crimes committed by Chicago gangbangers.
By the way, do you have evidence of an NRA connection for Tiller's murderer, or are you just libeling an organization you don't like, as is the pattern for bigots?
. . . it's just not part of the religion.
ReplyDeleteGuess what, microdot--I'm not religious, but I swear on my .50 caliber AR pistol that I will do my level best to kill anyone who tries to take my guns away, and if I can kill one of the liberty-stomping bastards before they get me, that's a trade I can be satisfied with.
Last time I checked, the carrying of ANY firearm in the city of chicago was totally illegal.
ReplyDeleteHas something changed?
Only the law abiding are disarmed in Chi-town. That's the whole point.
BTW, I just watched a decent documentary on Chicago gangs on youtube. A history from Al Capone days to the present. Great info and insight. The estimate cited was 100,000 active gang members in the city today.
Must be a great place to raise a family.
By contrast, my town has about 300 people in it and a very consevative estimate of 1000 guns.
We've had ZERO murders, zero assaults, and zero rapes in the 11 years I've lived here.
Had a few stolen cars, a few burglaries of out-buildings only(no residences) and one instance of someone taking anothers' mail out of the mail box for ID theft.
It can't be the presence or absence of guns or gun laws.
In my opinion, morals, ethics and a sense of community has more to do with violence in a community than any inanimate object.
Having said that, I wouldn't mind visiting Chicago; i hear they have some good pizza. But when I'm done eating, I'll return to my virtually crime free gun infested paradise.
I almost forgot to mention that the rat cage was not just a theoretical gun free zone but an actual one.
ReplyDeleteI agree with those who point out it's the inner cities that have the most problems. The answer is in reducing the availability of guns to those inner city criminals. The gun owners, the NRA and the gun lobby in Washington, are doing everything they can to block all attempts. To me that's immoral and everyone involved in it is dirty. By that I mean guilty, by that I mean you share in the responsibility for the mess we're in.
ReplyDeleteTo me that's immoral and everyone involved in it is dirty. By that I mean guilty, by that I mean you share in the responsibility for the mess we're in.
ReplyDeleteComing from you, I'll take that as a compliment, and wear it as a badge of honor. If you didn't think I was "guilty" of defending the Constitutionally guaranteed, fundamental human right of the individual to keep and bear arms, I would wonder what I was doing wrong.
MikeB,
ReplyDeleteJust had a thought, let's see how it plays out.
You say:
The gun owners, the NRA and the gun lobby in Washington, are doing everything they can to block all attempts. To me that's immoral and everyone involved in it is dirty. By that I mean guilty, by that I mean you share in the responsibility for the mess we're in.
So, if you aren't doing everything you can do to reduce the availability of firearms, are you being just as immoral and dirty?
There are more things you can do then just run your mouth off on the blog...are you doing all that you can do to reduce gun violence?
Have you donated money to a buy back (misnomer) program to get guns off the street?
Have you donated your time, energy and efforts to pass legislation to remove firearms?
Have you proposed workable ideas or suggestions?
In short, isn't you lack of complete effort to solve the problem make you just as morally responsible as the rest of us?
The responsibility lies on those who are causing the problem: The ~100,000 gang members.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to reduce the availability of guns to those ~100,000 gang members, you can't do what Chicago did. That did nothing to limit availability to criminals and everything to limit the availability to everyone else.
Poor MikeB. No facts to back up his beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI'm with Kurt, if defending a fundamental Constitutional Right makes me "dirty," then damnit, let me jump in the mud with the pigs & get good & dirty.
ReplyDelete"I agree with those who point out it's the inner cities that have the most problems."
ReplyDeleteI can agree with that statement. More poverty, more broken homes, more violence.
"The answer is in reducing the availability of guns to those inner city criminals. The gun owners, the NRA and the gun lobby in Washington, are doing everything they can to block all attempts."
The answer is giving the people who are, or feel trapped in the inner cities a way out. Something aside from sports, rap, or gangs. Give someone a hand up, a good education, a decent job, remove the culture of gangs, and that will help.
"To me that's immoral and everyone involved in it is dirty. By that I mean guilty, by that I mean you share in the responsibility for the mess we're in."
Until you accept that economic and social stress contribute to violence, by any means will you accept responsibility? You have to break the good ole boy culture that is located in the inner cities.
I am sorry Mike, but I side with so many of the people here who say tougher gun laws only disarm those, like myself, who are law abiding. I don't care if you can't buy a gun anywhere, the bad guys will find one to have and use. Someone once said, I think it was Bob S., that we first defend the right, then we tackle the problem. On this I disagree, we tackle the problems, poor education, poverty, joblessness no matter what the unemployment rate is, then we can move on, to the gun availability debate. That is, if resolving the social and economic issues that cause violence do not work. My bet is, once we take care of our fellow human, gun crimes, suicides, and spree killings will drop.
Talking about responsibility, did you ever notice how the pro-gun crowd fights the idea of shared responsibility tooth and nail but when it comes to a questionable shooting like the OK pharmacist, it was the dead kid's fault. The pharmacist is charged with 1st degree murder, but if that dumb kid hadn'ta gone in there with a gun, it never woulda happened. Isn't that what you say?
ReplyDelete"but if that dumb kid hadn'ta gone in there with a gun, it never woulda happened. Isn't that what you say?"
ReplyDeleteYes, because it's an absolute truth. Gun or not, had that "kid" not committed ARMED ROBBERY he would not have met resistance and would still be alive today.
His criminal actions of unprovoked violence against another person directly lead to his death. That was his choice. When you threaten people with deadly force it has consequences.