A Valley Station Road church is sponsoring an "Open Carry Church Service" in late June, encouraging people to wear unloaded guns in their holsters, enter a raffle to win a free handgun, hear patriotic music and listen to talks by operators of gun stores and firing ranges.The big day is slated for Saturday, June 27th. Online posters use a red font resembling splattered blood with the words: "Open Carry Church Service."
Pastor Ken Pagano of New Bethel Church said the first-time event is "basically trying to think a little bit outside the box" to promote "responsible gun ownership and 2nd Amendment rights."
Pagano denied that the poster was intended to glorify bloodshed and that the lettering was just "a font that somebody developed."You can see the poster on Alan Colmes site.
I'm sure Pastor Pagano is popular among the gun enthusiasts in his area, but not everyone is in agreement.
"Even if I were perfectly comfortable with open-carry handguns or gun rights, it seems to me a completely whole other thing to connect those rights to Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Jerry Cappel, president of the Kentuckiana Interfaith Community, a coalition of local leaders from various religions.
Tying in the event "with one who explicitly called us to put down the sword and pick up the cross and love our enemies and turn the other cheek, it just makes no sense," he said.
The Rev. Nancy Jo Kemper of Lexington, who has lobbied against laws such as one allowing citizens with permits to carry concealed weapons, said the event "would nauseate Jesus."
What's your opinion? What about the question of reconciling the non-violent message of Jesus with guns? Does that create a dilemma for the Christian gun owner?
In the video, Pagano said the guns he expects to see in his service are mainly for "sport" and only as a last resort for "self-defense." Does that sound right to you? I had the opposite impression, why do you think the pastor said that?
Over on One Utah, there were a number of references to this story, including this typically insightful comment by Becky.
That may seem perfectly logical to you, but to me it is a most unbelievable thing to imagine a pastor promoting. What is more antithetical to spirituality than guns? Why would a man of God, in a group that believes we should not kill and we should turn the other cheek, and blessed are the peacemakers think this is a good idea? Is there not one place people can go and expect to be free from the threat and negative emotional impact of seeing guns? I know the answer. But it just seems wrong to me.
If a person is seeking peace, calm, spirituality, I would think the appearance of all that cold steel would be a real deterrent. I know it would be for me.
If there is another life and there is a Jesus looking down on his followers, he must feel terribly sad to know this is what it has all come to.
What's your opinion? Please feel free to leave a comment.
I think he got the idea from Jesus.
ReplyDelete"threat and negative emotional impact of seeing guns?
ReplyDeleteAnd right here is why the anti-gunners will never win Mike.
How can you take "Becky" or someone like her seriously when she believes that merely seeing guns creates negative emotional impact and is "threatening?"
Whether you agree with OC Or not is irrelevant. If the mere sight of a gun creates "negative emotional impact" and a holstered gun is in itself "threatening" then you've got some serious problems.
"Tying in the event "with one who explicitly called us to put down the sword and pick up the cross and love our enemies and turn the other cheek, it just makes no sense," he said."
ReplyDeleteSo, if you are violently attacked or your home is broken into or you're forced to watch your wife being raped, you're supposed to love your enemy, turn the other cheek, blah blah blah???
Oh, and don't even consider calling the police; they carry guns and could envoke a negative emoitional impact.
What a crock. It might be funny if it weren't so sad.
I don't have a problem with gun ownership and gun rights. However I think that church is a poor venue to address these issues.
ReplyDeleteOokami,
ReplyDeleteThe church is a poor place to address these issues?
Was the church a poor place to address the issue of slavery?
A poor place to address apartheid?
How about the women's suffrage movement?
Church is the exact place we should address problems with society. The Christian doesn't live in the church, isn't just a Christian on Sundays.
The ministers and priests should be address how Christians should live their lives daily. Calling for a celebration of our heritage AND responsible gun ownership is exactly what more churches should do.
Wouldn't that help change the culture that finds violence an acceptable way to settle disputes?
I'm not a big fan of this idea, for the reason outlined by David Codrea (excerpt):
ReplyDeleteThe idea that police are the "only ones" who can be entrusted with loaded firearms should be offensive to everyone who believes in the right of the people to keep and bear arms. And while I get the symbolism and perception Pastor Pagano is trying to convey, I challenge the notion that encouraging deference to and reliance on official elitism--along with actual defenselessness-- is an effective or desirable way to "promote responsible gun ownership and gun safety."
This, of course, refers to the fact that the guns are to be unloaded, and that security will be provided by paid agents of the government, rather than by an armed, self-reliant congregation.
By the way, this puzzles me:
In the video, Pagano said the guns he expects to see in his service are mainly for "sport" and only as a last resort for "self-defense." Does that sound right to you? I had the opposite impression, why do you think the pastor said that?
So you think guns should be used for sport only as a last resort? Is the need for sport ever so dire that it makes sense to talk about "sporting goods of last resort"?
"What's your opinion? What about the question of reconciling the non-violent message of Jesus with guns? Does that create a dilemma for the Christian gun owner?"
ReplyDeleteThat's an old argument.
http://sensiblyprogressive.blogspot.com/2008/08/should-christian-own-guns-what-would.html
I think that addresses it pretty well.
@kaveman - It's your wife who's excepted to turn the other cheek after being raped. Not you.
ReplyDeleteMike W., You can ridicule all you want, but I think Becky has a very valid point. Many people are probably frightened by the very sight of firearms. Whether that's from ignorance or whatever, I think it's true.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you suggest we do with those people, just tell them, "tough shit, get over it?"
Just because you're rough tough gun owners, can't you still be sensitive to other people's feelings and opinions?
MikeB,
ReplyDeleteYes, I expect them to get over it. Because that is what adults do, they recognize they have a problem with an item but still do what is needed to live life.
How about the other side of the coin?
Why do the anti-freedom people never recognize our feelings? Aren't our feelings just as valid?
If I feel I want to carry a firearm for safety, to exercise my rights -- shouldn't you and every other anti accept our feelings?
What do you suggest we do with those people, just tell them, "tough shit, get over it?"
ReplyDeleteSome people suffer a "negative emotional impact" from the presence of people whose ethnicity/religion/sexual preferences, etc., offend them. To them, I do indeed say "tough shit, get over it"--just as I would to those who suffer a "negative emotional impact" from seeing my ability to defend my life and liberty.
I'm not in the business of making irrational bigots comfortable.
Mike, you and becky are free to have your irrational fears and feelings. The moment those irrational fears infringe upon my rights we've got a problem.
ReplyDeleteWe don't want to force guns upon you folks who don't like them. If you dont' like em don't carry or own em, but leave us the hell alone is all we ask.
Yes, I would say "tough shit" the same way I'd tell someone frightened by the mere sight of a black guy to "get over it."
The Bigotry of becky and others isn't pretty Mike.
Finally we have a Christian church that doesn't preach all of that socialism crap like helping the poor, feeding the hungry, paying your taxes, and doing unto others. Can't figure out where they got any of those ideas in the first place.
ReplyDeleteFinally we have a Christian church that doesn't preach all of that socialism crap like helping the poor, feeding the hungry, paying your taxes, and doing unto others.
ReplyDeleteAnd on what are you basing your assertion on what isn't preached at that church--or are you just making stuff up as you go along?
Blanca, Your comment made me smile, but I must confess I was unsure if it were tongue-in-cheek or not - until I flipped over to your blog. Then everything was clear. Great stuff.
ReplyDeleteOther churchgoers have a different view:
ReplyDeletehttp://daysofourtrailers.blogspot.com/2008/05/best-mothers-day-gift-of-all.html
http://daysofourtrailers.blogspot.com/2008/06/first-lesson.html
Thirdpower, Thanks for those links. I'm sure your friend, the Elder at his church will feel much safer now that he's armed. And I have no problem with the idea that if, and that's a big if, but if anything dramatic ever happens at his church, they'll all be better off armed than if they just have to cower before the crazed gunman and wait for the police to respond.
ReplyDeleteMy problem is that in order to prevent a possible future tragedy, you create a situation with big downside. The more guns you have around, the more the chances of their being stolen or misused. Accidents, suicides and homicides are made more likely with the presence of guns.
Wouldn't it be a shame if one of those tragedies happened while they were waiting for a crazy attacker to show up?
And yet those accidents you keep going on about are so rare they barely even figure into the statistics. Especially in light of there being 80 million firearm owners w/ over 300 million firearms in the US.
ReplyDelete"The more guns you have around, the more the chances of their being stolen or misused. "
ReplyDeleteSo people carrying concealed at church are having their guns stolen?
It seems to me that since you have your "gun flow" theory you should support OC and CCW everywhere. Why?
Well the biggest source of illegal guns are those stolen from legal owners homes, cars etc. If they keep their guns on their persons we end up with less "gun flow."
Hallelujah for people like Pastor Ken! They give the rest of the world more reasons to snigger at just how totally whacked out and crazy you are in the U.S. The very fact that you have people even looney enough to defend this nutter makes it even funnier. Don't you ever look at yourself through the eyes of the world globally? You stumble around like a ridiculous drunken belligerent confused adolescent. This is going to make a great episode for the Simpsons. Homer- the absolute consummate American guy. Taking his gun to church and blowing someone's head off. Ha, imagine if every god loving church goer took their gun on Sundays. You wouldn't need terrorists anymore!!
ReplyDeleteCheeky, I'm with ya. The opinion of most people I talk to here in Italy is one of bewilderment. The usually shake their heads in bewilderment. The gun guys can't see it.
ReplyDeleteThe gun guys can't see it.
ReplyDeleteI think most American gun rights advocates are well aware of the contempt many people in other countries have for what they see as insufficiently draconian American gun laws, Mike B. What you need to realize is that the contempt of people like Cheeky isn't irrelevant to us--it's actually a point of pride. People like him honor us with their contempt--if they had any respect for us, we'd wonder what we were doing wrong. I'll leave it at that--I know you don't like personal attacks, unless they come from the advocates of forcible citizen disarmament calling gun rights advocates "fascist pigs," "hyenas," and "nutters," but suffice it to say that people like Cheeky give me new reason for patriotic pride.
Oh, by the way, the "guns in church" event has already happened, and just as in the vast majority of assemblies of armed, peaceable people, no one was killed, no one was injured, and no one was threatened.
Funny isn't it Kurt? Contrast Cheeky's comment about how such an event would play out with the reality of what actually went on.
ReplyDeleteIt becomes quite clear that Cheeky, MikeB, and their ilk are living in an alternate reality.