Tuesday, September 7, 2010

When the NRA talks about 'Enforcement'...

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...criminals and terrorists laugh:

ONLY ABOUT 10 percent of the nation's 100,000 licensed gun dealers are audited each year by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). The ATF cannot fine wayward dealers; its only tool at the moment involves revoking a miscreant's license. And that happens only about 100 times annually.

But even this level of scrutiny rankles the National Rifle Association, which is pushing for legislation that threatens to gut the ATF's already limited ability to keep illegal guns off the streets.

26 comments:

  1. If we're going to get into enforcement, there's a reason that ATF is kept weak. The reason isn't that they are jack-booted thugs, it's that the "gun rights" crowd talks out of both sides of their mouths when they mention enforcement.

    The gun laws were written to be unenforcable.

    The agency charged with enforcement is kept weak.

    And the people who say "enforce the laws on the books" do everything in their power to make the laws unenforcable.

    Not to mention they deny that anything is wrong.

    "Criminals will always get guns, so why bother having laws to stop criminals getting guns?"

    Laci

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  2. When the Brady Campaign talks about closing the gun show loophole, criminals and terrorists laugh. When the Brady Campaign talks about banning assault weapons, criminals and terrorists laugh.

    Criminals and terrorists laugh because people like Jadegold, Laci, and mikeb are willing to do everything possible to infringe upon the rights of non-criminals and non-terrorists, while doing everything they can to avoid imprisoning and executing criminals and terrorists.

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  3. Someone should ask the ATF's director why only 10% of FFL's are scrutinized, that is if the President ever gets around to appointing one. Clearly it is the NRA's fault for Obama not doing his job.

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  4. Let's do the math for Ruffy.

    10% of over 100,000FFLs is 10,000.

    There are fewer than 600 ATF agents charged with auditing FFls.

    Now, Ruffy will say something like :600! That's only about 17 audits a year!!!

    The reality, though, is that it at current staffing levels, it would take ATF nearly 17 years to audit each FFL once.

    This, of course, is making the false premise that gunloons *want* to put dirty FFls out of business. They don't.

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  5. Is that really what you want? 10 times as many ATF agents spending 10 times the money auditing every single FFL? Is that the best way to deter crime? Personally I’d rather see that money go to more LEOs making more street level or high level arrests of violent criminals. Or maybe put that manpower into the reform system. I am not against finding and prosecuting corrupt FFLS, but there is a price performance that needs to be considered. A 10% threat of an audit is enough to keep the honest ones honest. The IRS doesn’t audit every single taxpayer for a reason. This also means on average an FFL will get audited once a decade.

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  6. TS: I'm glad you brought this up.

    First, a couple misconceptions you have: the kinds of audits the IRS conducts are very different than what the ATF conducts. And, in reality, the IRS basically has a mechanism in place to ensure just about every taxpayer is paying taxes on revenues and income.

    The IRS audits in four general cases (ymmv): one, if you've had a history of doing questionable things tax-wise; two, if your return shows some really glaring errors or discrepancies; three, if your return shows some out-of-whack numbers for deductions and/or expenses. In addition, a small number of folks will be randomly audited.

    In the case of FFL audits, there's not any real reporting mechanism.

    Second, I certainly don't suggest we need to increase the number of AT auditors. A far better and more efficient way would be to have the reporting mechanism of licensing and registration.

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  7. "Criminals will always get guns, so why bother having laws to stop criminals getting guns?"

    Finally you understand.

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  8. Jade: “And, in reality, the IRS basically has a mechanism in place to ensure just about every taxpayer is paying taxes on revenues and income.”

    Ha! Yeah, it’s called an audit. The IRS doesn’t get reporting for things like rental income or even capitol gains, not to mention selling of personal property, and the bevy of write-offs. Taxpayers have to say how much money they made, and if they get audited and the numbers don’t line up, they get busted.

    Jade: “A far better and more efficient way would be to have the reporting mechanism of licensing and registration.”

    Ah, so this wasn’t an ATF audit post, it was a licensing & registration post.

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  9. Ha! Yeah, it’s called an audit.

    Nope. The fact is your employer sends the IRS an accounting of your wages and any taxes paid. As does most of the financial institutions you do business--be it mortgages, loans, investments, bank accounts, etc.

    Basically, the IRS takes this info and tallies it against what you report on your 1040.

    The taxpayer gets audited if there exists some great discrepancy between what you file and what was reported by banks, employers, etc.

    Ah, so this wasn’t an ATF audit post, it was a licensing & registration post.

    Ah, so your comment wasn't informed, it was yet another stupid comment.

    Licensing and registration would serve well to clean up dirty FFLs as it would produce the kind of automated oversight that does not exist presently.

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  10. I say we need a mechanism for licensing and registration AND more ATF agents doing the audits/visits.

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  11. 'Cause Weerd will issue a fatwah against those who suggest it!

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  12. "'Cause Weerd will issue a fatwah against those who suggest it!"

    No, because common sense prevails and the truth is silly registration schemes do absolutely nothing to stop crime. Never have, never will.

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  13. 'Cause Weerd will issue a fatwah against those who suggest it!

    No, because there is less stomach for gun control now than there has been at any time in the past 30 years. The grassroots support for your cause is next to nothing. As Weer'd Beer'd replied, suggestions such as MikeB's are at this point laughable at best.

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  14. Ayatollah Weerd's fatwah aside--about 3/4 of the American public favor licensing or registration.

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  15. Sure, Jade, go ahead and dream. 3/4 of America couldn't agree on a flavor of ice cream.

    BTW, did you ever call the police because of the supposed fatwah?

    Yeah, I thought so.

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  16. Jade: “Basically, the IRS takes this info and tallies it against what you report on your 1040.”

    I take it you haven’t gotten passed the 1040EZ in your professionally fulfilled career. Tell me, why doesn’t the IRS just use their reporting mechanism to send us all a bill? Why do we have to waste all that time in April filling out our returns? How come when we hear about someone getting busted for tax evasion, the charges usually go back decades? Shouldn’t the IRS know right away by comparing the returns to the reporting mechanism?

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  17. about 3/4 of the American public favor licensing or registration.

    So says a Joyce Funded Study, no doubt. It's ok, keep telling yourself that it is the truth. Whatever you have to do to hold on to that small bit of sanity you still got.

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  18. Since TS's daddy still does TS' tax return for him--I'll try to 'splan a few things.

    The reason one files a return is because not all income may be reported. Similarly, not all deductions are reported and some may not even be in cash. Additionally, some deductions, income and expenses may be deducted or reported over time--as opposed to a lump sum--depending on a taxpayer's preference.

    No, Ruffy, not a Joyce Foundation report. Polls by CNN/Time and Newsweek to name a couple. In fact, 66% of gunowners favor registration.

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  19. "Polls by CNN/Time and Newsweek to name a couple."

    Yeah, those are great examples of magazines and news outlets that aren't firmly entrenched with anti-gun zealots, Jade. Next you'll tell us that the VPC conducted a poll that found 100% of gun owners favor registration.

    "In fact, 66% of gunowners favor registration."

    Let's see that poll information. I'd love to see the questions, and who was asking.

    "If the President and Congress were to successfully pass a ban on firearms, unless registered for hunting or self-defense, would you be in favor of registration?"

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  20. Jade: “The reason one files a return is because not all income may be reported. Similarly, not all deductions are reported and some may not even be in cash. Additionally, some deductions, income and expenses may be deducted or reported over time--as opposed to a lump sum--depending on a taxpayer's preference.”

    In other words, you have backed away from your position that the IRS has an all-seeing eye that makes audits less necessary than the ATF audits. I think we can move back to talking about guns.

    MikeB, you can consider that the ATF needs more auditing agents, but isn’t it possible that 10% is enough and those resources would be better spent elsewhere? The point I have been trying to get across to Jade is that the threat of an audit is what keeps taxpayers and FFLs in line. Any FFL in business for a length of time will get audited (unlike taxpayers), and as you increase the percentage of audits there would naturally be a sharp diminishing return on the resource investment.

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  21. I know what we need. A small but highly motivated and efficient unit like CTU on 24. We could send agents like Jack Bauer and Tony Almeida into the field to investigate suspicious FFL guys.

    CTU should be the model upon which the ATF shapes itself, not the IRS.

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  22. "No, Ruffy, not a Joyce Foundation report. Polls by CNN/Time and Newsweek to name a couple. In fact, 66% of gunowners favor registration."

    Jade's fantasy bullshit never ceases to entertain.

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  23. Oh--yes, indeed. Let us all shed a tear over the BATFE's woefully inadequate budget. Let us all agree that with a foundering economy, soaring national debt, and record deficit, it's time to give the BATFE more money.

    Let's all agree that we need to give more money (what's the big deal--we can always print more--worked great for Zimbabwe) to this agency:

    The former director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives authorized hundreds of thousands of dollars of questionable expenditures on a new ATF headquarters, personal security and other items, and he violated ethics rules by ordering 20 employees to help his nephew prepare a high school video project, according to an exhaustive report released Wednesday.

    Carl Truscott, who previously served as head of President Bush's security detail at the Secret Service, also took several questionable trips with excessive numbers of accompanying ATF agents, including a $37,000 journey to London in September 2005 accompanied by eight other ATF employees, according to the report.


    The new BATFE headquarters (dubbed, by the wiser among us, "the Concrete Asshole of the Universe," went tens of millions of dollars over budget. Good use of funds?

    The new headquarters of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in the District is at least $19 million over budget at a time when the agency is considering sharp cuts in the number of new cars, bulletproof vests and other basics it provides agents.

    Director Truscott's use of 20 taxpayer supported helpers for his nephew's high school documentary is pretty impressive, eh?

    Care to defend our noble Regulators of Cigarettes, Malt Liquor, and Constitutionally Guaranteed Fundamental Human Rights over the fact that Truscott is now long gone--things are different now?

    Well, does this (from just a few months ago) sound like an efficient use of scarce resources? ATF Agent: I Get Paid $150k To Do Nothing.

    Oh yeah--they're completely cleaned up now.

    Burn the whole corrupt abomination to the ground. There's not a damned thing there worth saving.

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  24. Thanks Zorro for the details about the ATF. I see you're prepared for that discussion.

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  25. Thanks Zorro for the details about the ATF. I see you're prepared for that discussion.

    Prepared?

    Hell--when it comes to the BATFE (I always use all five letters of the acronym, because supposedly they get a little sensitive about not being among the "elite," three-letter agencies), I've worked out everything on down to the sewage treatment plant that would replace BATFE headquarters. Any BATFE personnel who perish in the dissolution of the agency (which might get a little messy) could be interred in the sludge.

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