Mike B (yes that Mike B and no flaming allowed) writes:
I’m a regular reader of TTAG and wondered if you’d share your thoughts on the issue of pocket carry. This is the recent story that got me thinking about it [via taylors.patch.com]: “Greenville deputies said a 2-year-old child is in the hospital after an accidental shooting in Greenville County. Deputies said the toddler and his father were visiting the child’s grandparents on Fenwick Lane in Berea, when the toddler reached into his father’s pocket and grabbed the weapon. The gun fired striking the toddler in the chest.” Would you say that carrying a gun in this manner without a pocket holster is irresponsible? Are there certain makes or models of handguns which are exceptions, which are safe to carry in the pocket?
I asked Robert to post that following our bizarre comment thread last week in which some of the commenters insisted pocket carry was acceptable (no qualifications mentioned).
For example, Greg at his most arrogant said this:
I carry several guns in precisely the way described in my comment. They have no safeties because the trigger pull is sufficiently heavy to preclude accidents. But tell me, do you really want to argue with me about what experts on the subject have to say? Between the two of us, which one do you imagine is more informed on that?
Yes, Greg, I really did want to argue with you about this. It seems the Armmed Intelligentsia agrees with me, almost to a man. Pocket carry is irresponsible UNLESS you have a pocket holster. I noticed you didn't try to argue with them.
Wow, this is a new low, even for you, in deceptiveness and rewriting of our discussion.
ReplyDeleteAt the time, you were saying that ALL pocket carry was irresponsible. Greg and I argued against you and we talked about the need for holsters. We also talked about how those holsters needed to cover the trigger.
You dropped out of the discussion, and now you bring it back up, re-frame it, and talk about how we bizzarely argued for pocket carry without a holster while you were extolling the merits of holsters as the responsible way to do it. Not only is that framing deceptive and false, but you add in an outright LIE by stating that we didn't list any qualifications, even though there was discussion of holsters, safeties, weight of trigger pull, etc.
This is disgraceful, mendacious, and contemptible.
You should be ashamed of yourself and should issue a correction to this post, and an apology to your readers if you want to regain any shred of respect.
Greg did not limit his claims of safe pocket carry to those which use a pocket holster.
DeleteEither produce the proof that he did or admit you're wrong. Decency demands it.
You insulted pocket carry in general, and he defended it in general. You are the one making misrepresentations here.
Delete"Y’all can see for yourselves if you go over to Mike’s blog. His comments were to the effect that All pocket carry was irresponsible. Another commenter, Greg Camp, and I argued with him on that issue, and we pointed out the need for a holster covering the trigger both in pocket carry and other types of carry.
ReplyDeleteHis post here was part of his new re-framing of the issue, trying to paint us as insane and outside the mainstream.
Same old Mike; New depths of deception."
How dare you lie like that on TTAG? You know god damned well Greg was not talking about pocket carry being safe ONLY when a holster is used.
You really made me look bad over there, preaching to the choir like that. I find your action absolutely despicable. I'm surprised and disappointed in you. I didn't think you'd stoop that low.
Mike, you made yourself look bad, by revising what our discussion was about, getting TTAG to respond to a different topic, and then trying to use their responses to beat us up.
DeleteYou claim that I crossed a line by going over there and calling out your lies? HA! Your comment that I was responding to was this:
"Thanks. The gun-rights fanatics on my blog were not nearly as reasonable as you guys.
Thanks for all the serious answers."
So you ran over there and told them that we were all unreasonable and unlike them--that we all thought that holsterless was the way to go. You were misrepresenting us to them, so I just went over there and told them the truth.
You now make a big deal out of Greg not having mentioned holsters for pocket carry. Big deal--first, he responded regarding pocket carry in general; then, I mentioned the need for a holster. Your responses ignored the holster issue and kept harping on whether or not a gun had a safety, so that's what Greg addressed. Why should he have come back and reiterated something commonsensical that I said and which you didn't dispute?
As for your disappointment and low opinion of me, as I have said above, I maintain that I was merely clearing up your misrepresentations. But what say we put it to the others? There are links here, and I'm sure some of the folks from TTAG will come here to see which of us was telling the truth, so there may be extra volume and commenters. Let the readers comment on which of us is in the wrong and why they think so. If the people agree with you and show me the error of my ways, then I'll apologize.
You?
Your lawyerly trickery is too much for me. I asked you straight up did Greg say he uses a holster or not. Can't you answer?
DeleteYou could get your answer from my previous post, but here you go again: He talked about using one when carrying in other ways. He didn't say one way or the other when talking about pocket carry. For you to be right here, he would have needed to have argued that pocket carry sans holster was totally responsible--something that was not broached.
DeleteNow, "lawyerly trickery"? Wow; where do you see that?
I find your action absolutely despicable.
DeleteWear it like the badge of honor that it is, Tennessean.
1. I didn't take part in the discussion at The Truth About Guns since I only found that article after there were a lot of comments. I do have other things to do, as hard as that could be for you to imagine, Mikeb.
ReplyDelete2. You never asked me how to carry in a pocket. You made a blanket statement that all pocket carry is irresponsible. You showed yourself to be unwilling to listen, so there was no point in going into details that were already covered and that you'd ignore.
3. Yes, Mikeb, you've reached a new low. You've shown yourself to be petty, spiteful, and deceitful.
Mikeb, you also ignore the diversity of opinion on The Truth About Guns. They were not all on one side with regard to any aspect of the question. Why is complexity lost on you?
ReplyDeleteThat's true. There were a few who said it's OK without a holster. But by far the consensus was that a holster is needed to make it safe and acceptable.
DeleteIn our other discussion, did you intend carrying without a holster, or not?
I'll discuss techniques for pocket carry when you withdraw your ignorant comment that all pocket carry is irresponsible.
DeleteGreg, I never said "all."
DeleteYou were caught with your pants down on this one and you're not honest enough to admit it.
The best you can do is now refuse to discuss it unless ....
A couple of your quotes from that thread Mike:
Delete"Pocket carry is not standard. Furthermore, pocket carry with a gun that has no safety or one that's not engaged is grossly negligent."
"My opinion is that carrying in your pocket is irresponsible, and if your gun has no safety or the safety is off, even more so."
True, you didn't use the word all, but you still made absolute statements that meant that all pocket carry was irresponsible. Moreover, you kept harping on safeties, not on the use of holsters.
Greg didn't get caught with his pants down. He tried arguing with you rationally, and you misrepresented what he said and slandered him. That's not getting caught with one's pants down; that's getting sucker punched.
The dishonesty here is all on the part of the man hiding behind the fact that he never said "all pocket carry is irresponsible," but just, "pocket carry is irresponsible."
Pitiful.
Now, now, grown children gather around and sit quietly to be enlightened by my sage logic.
DeleteIt is manifestly irresponsible to partake in the cowardly act of carrying weapons.
You wouldn't last a minute in the real world without your fetish objects to keep you safe.
I must encounter those like you on a daily basis, from the young punks who pack a switchblade into the theater, to the unhinged granny who packs a revolver, presumably to return fire to the cowboys on the big screen, to the redneck in the NRA hat who thought that he could get his garment of terrorism into one of America's finest Cinemas, guarded by me, armed only with a badge, pepper spray, and Ultraman underpants (undisputed by true experts and hailed as the greatest superhero ever), I protect society against the likes of you.
By day, I embark on a journey upwards, bravely climbing the stairs that lead from my mothers basement, buffeting waves of potential attackers with my psychokinetic mental energy attacks, and elite ninja-training for those who are more stubborn. It is a rare occasion that I must rely upon assistance from underlings, and even rarer that I must (with regrets) use my resort of the final lifeline, pepper-spray.
At night, I transform into the mysterious, admired and loathed master of the global forum, known as Jade. In my lair, after being fed dinner by my maternal sidekick, I embark on my riotous crusade against the nefarious and ignorant rednecks, conservatives, libertarians, and the abhorrent gun owners who have the petulance to defy me.
Fear me.
Ok, dude, it's official. I've lost all respect for you as a troll. You're just silly now. Time to hang up your hat and be on your way to a new job. You once had potential, but the spirit of the troll no longer smiles on you. Your troll fu, weak it is.
Delete"You've shown yourself to be petty, spiteful, and deceitful."
ReplyDeleteExactly what I have found Greg to be after receiving comments from him on this blog.
For the benefit of readers looking for information and advice, I'll state my position on pocket carry. Mikeb, I don't care what you think about it.
ReplyDelete1. Single-action semiautomatics are for belt or shoulder holster carry only, unless the chamber under the hammer or striker is empty. I'm talking to you, Glock.
2. Manual safeties in pockets are worthless, since ordinary motion switches them off all the time.
3. Double-action guns in Condition Two--hammer down on a live round--with sufficiently heavy triggers are fine. Triggers with weights above eight pounds are unlikely to go off unintentionally.
4. Holsters are often a good idea, but they function as a convenience more than a safety. A holster keeps the gun oriented as it needs to be and also protects the pocket material from wear from the front sight and other rough parts.
5. Absolutely nothing else but the gun and the holster should be in the pocket. Cargo pants are a good idea here.
6. The situation given in the source article, as observed by several commentors at The Truth About Guns, is strange, since any gun as described in #3 above would be hard for a toddler to fire. I predict that the father was carrying a Glock or similar gun with a light trigger. See #1.