The SPLC [Southern Poverty Law Center] says law enforcement and the intelligence community have been focused since the September 11th attacks on international terrorism. The recent violence is a stark reminder of homegrown threats. In the 1990s, agents brought right wing militias under control by strong enforcement of weapons laws, getting members on low level offenses before they could commit major acts. The latest incident may signal the need for a new crackdown. Predicting and tracking the moves of the lonewolf shooter, however, might prove to be more of a challenge.
What do you think about that? Do you think these incidents should be considered "home grown terrorism?" Do these so-called "lone wolf" shooters count as terrorists? How about guys like McVeigh?
Is it true that in the 1990s "agents brought right wing militias under control?" Wasn't it in the 90s that we had those big cases like Waco and Ruby Ridge? I thought they were considered failures for the feds? What's your opinion?
Do you think there's anything to the idea that as a country we've been concentrating on the external threat and not paying enough attention to the domestic scene?
Please leave a comment.
I would say that we would be much better off cracking down on gangs than on lone wolves.
ReplyDeleteGangs are just begging to be tracked. They wear identifying colors and tattoos for all the wold to see.
How many times do you read about a shooting and see the phrase, "gang-related?"
Take a look at the Gov't responses to Waco and Ruby Ridge.How many citizens died by the hands of authorities when it was escalated (by the gov't) and they didn't follow their own rules.
ReplyDeleteThen look at how many of those officials have been held accountable for those deaths.
Is that the kind of world MikeB wants?
While the papers are focusing on the 'right wing extremists', they pay little attention to PETA financing groups like ALF and ELF which cause tens of millions of dollars in property damage and threaten the lives and families of medical doctors.
I do believe that these people are domestic terrorists. I also believe that they are and will be fueled by irrisponsible rhetoric by the Rush Limbaughs and even high visibility polititians who paint the rest of us as less American just to get a vote from "Joe the Plumber." They pander to the fearful and hostile.
ReplyDeleteThis will get me in touble, but I feel the lastest furvor over "gun rights," the up tick in gun purchases, and the loosening of restrictions on gun ownership and places they are allowed doesn't help.
Poverty, frustration, a failing education all pile on.
I would like to continue to "raise the bar" on discussion, make education popular again, and raise the expectation for success for Americans. I think this philisophical change would help. CalGal
@Kaveman - I've never read about gangs blowing up a government building. I've never read about gangs blowing up abortion clinics. I've never read about gangs killing doctors. I've never read about gangs mailing bombs. I've never read about gangs setting off bombs at the Olympics.
ReplyDeleteHave you?
CalGal, Far from getting yourself in trouble, you get honorary sainthood around here for saying stuff like that. Keep comin' back.
ReplyDeletephuckpolitics said...
ReplyDelete@Kaveman - I've never read about gangs blowing up a government building. I've never read about gangs blowing up abortion clinics. I've never read about gangs killing doctors. I've never read about gangs mailing bombs. I've never read about gangs setting off bombs at the Olympics.
Have you?
Not to step in front of kaveman but I would also like to respond to this comment.
phuckpolitics is absolutely correct. You don't hear about gangs doing these things. These are committed by a relatively few individuals that have taken the lives of dozens of people over a span of a couple of decades.
Gangs on the other hand are responsible for thousands of murders every year. Why do you continue to focus on criminal actions that comprise less than 1/100th of 1% of crime in this country?
Yup, right wing crime is on the rise. It went from 2 cases to 4 cases last month. I'm going to worry more about all of the urban, gang and inner-city violence than that committed by 3 or 4 high profile right wing nutjobs.
PP,
ReplyDeleteAnd yet gangs account for far more crimes and murders than those isolated events put together.
Which is more dangerous then?
Calgal says "I FEEL"..... yet predictably doesn't back up her assertions with anything substantive.
ReplyDelete@phuckpolitics...
ReplyDeletePerhaps I could have made my point clearer.
The incidents you cite are relatively isolated. While I admit they are horrific, they are few and far between and almost impossible to predict.
But gang violence is a daily occurence and the gangs advertise themselves and their deeds quite openly.
Just check out youtube where they openly talk about selling drugs and killing people.
Doing a cost-benefit analysis, I believe our LEO resources would produce more positive results focusing on gangs instead of a lone wolf scenario.
To answer your question though.
Gangs blowing up a government building? No, I haven't. But I have read stories about them tying up a family in the living room and then setting the house on fire to destroy all evidence and witnesses to a burglary.
Gangs blowing up abottion clinics? No, I haven't. This is a violent political statement, even terrorism I admit, but I don't think 15 year old gang-bangers pay any attention to politics.
Gangs killing doctors? Yes, I have.
They didn't kill doctors because they were doctors, but they're just as dead.
Gangs mailing bombs? No, I haven't. Using IED's? Yes, they just weren't sent through the mail. Why this point matters to you escapes me.
Gangs setting off bombs at the Olympics? No. Setting off bombs in other location? Yes.
Hope that helps.
CalGal, I agree with a few things you said. "I also believe that they are and will be fueled by irresponsible rhetoric by the Rush Limbaughs and even high visibility politicians who paint the rest of us as less American just to get a vote from "Joe the Plumber." They pander to the fearful and hostile." and "Poverty, frustration, a failing education all pile on.
ReplyDeleteI would like to continue to "raise the bar" on discussion, make education popular again, and raise the expectation for success for Americans. I think this philosophical change would help."
We live in a culture of fear. We live in a culture where people are worked half to death for peanuts. We are told that there is help, only to have the door slammed in our faces. A system where the corrupt get away with everything, and the honest people get screwed. We have innocent people rotting away in prison, when the real criminals walk free. Mike I was going to put a lot more on here, but it exceeded your character limit, so I will just abbreviate it.
Its a fucked up world Mike. Mike we all have demons, those shooters you talk about give into them. Many of us can ignore them, even live with them screaming in our ears, but some cant. Gun flow, availability, and many other reasons you give will not solve this problem. Mike, I want to tell you, I can understand the warped sense these shooters have. How I got to where I can see their point of view has been a horribly long road. I can say I hate myself because I understand and see it. That is why I constantly question you on why you do not take into account social and economic factors into these killings.
Mike, I respect your right to disagree, even if I do not always show it in my posts to you. But we have so many problems, guns are near the bottom of the list. That is what I am getting at. If you took away all guns you would still have the problem, while I will concede that they might not be as severe, they will still be there. Guns are a nice face, but they are a mask for the problem. If you take away all routes of escape, people will explode or implode, and that is what is happening. It does not matter if it is in their heads, or if it is real, the results are the same. Those results are dead bodies. I ask you Mike, since it is looking like I will be gone for a while, to take a step back, and look hard at this issue. Try to see that guns are not the entirety of the problem, we are.
Set a loaded gun on the table, and it will remain there nearly undisturbed for years. It might fire after decades when the spring to the firing pin fails, but for the most part that gun will just sit on that table. That gun will only fire when someone picks it up, points it, and pulls the trigger. Ask yourself why does someone do that. My father at 68 years old is having to work, just to support the household. My mother wont be home for another 1 to 5 years, thanks to a justice system that is broken. I am stuck at a dead end job, that pays five hundred dollars every two weeks, and has no benefits. We are going to lose our home, and have lost four generations of work in livestock, and the only thing we can do is write the figures in the sand just before high tide, and watch as the water washes it away. I ask everyone to put yourself in that position, I mean honestly think about it. Look to the soles of your feet, as my mom would say. What would you do, what could you do, when every foreseeable exit is blocked, and you have lost almost everything, and within a month you will lose the rest. I can only hope that once you do that, you can see what some people, like myself are getting at.
Thirdpower asked, "Is that the kind of world MikeB wants?"
ReplyDeleteActually, I'm against government interference in private affairs. But in my opinion something must be done about the guns. You guys have gone too far and your attempts to disassociate yourselves from the misuse of firearms is not convincing.
John, Do I know you by another name? Thanks for the heartfelt comment.
ReplyDelete"But in my opinion something must be done about the guns."
ReplyDeleteThrough gov't interference in private lives. Hypocrite.
"You guys have gone too far "
In your view, that by supporting our right to own firearms in the first place.
"your attempts to disassociate yourselves from the misuse of firearms is not convincing."
All the while you disassociate yourself from the misuse of computers for ... well you know. Don't want to show more of your hypocritical censorship.
Mike I go by Malakh Abaddon. I decided to drop that name because of the nature of that post. A human face was required, not a persona that was adopted years ago for Role Playing in AOL chat rooms.
ReplyDeleteMike I wanted to just add one other thing. Thirdpower brought up PETA, ALF and ELF. I can honestly say that while I lived in Virginia, we had run ins with PETA due to the condition of some of the animals we took in. As for ALF, they spiked trees that were being cut behind our farm, injuring several loggers, and ELF torched several hummers and dealerships in the area. I wanted to point out that I carry because I work security at a coal mine, a prime target for both the ELF and ALF. While they claim to abstain from hurting animals and people, like those who follow any religion, you have some radical elements who do not care.
"I would like to continue to "raise the bar" on discussion,"
ReplyDeleteI'm sure, since you quite clearly refuse to allow dissenting comments on your blog, even when they are 100% civil.
Harris County Precinct 4 deputy constables said the 34-year-old was alone inside the home in the Timberlane subdivision on Briarcreek Boulevard near Cades Cove Drive at about 6 a.m.
ReplyDeleteInvestigators said the woman opened fire when the attackers burst through her bedroom door.
"She's in her bedroom, locked in her bedroom. And she could hear them rustling through the rooms about the house. She grabbed her weapon and you know, held up inside her bedroom. It wasn't until they forced their way into her bedroom, they kicked the bedroom door in. She fired several shots at the suspects," said Lt. Jeff Stauber with the Harris County Sheriff's Department."
So MikeB, should she have assumed these two weren't going to hurt her?
Thirdpower, From what you wrote, I say she did exactly right and I'll even go further and say thank god she had the gun.
ReplyDeleteHoly crap Mike! You didn't blame the victim! Are you actually coming around to reality or was this a slip-up on your part?
ReplyDeleteToo bad the policies you support would have her unarmed.
You say "Thank God she had a gun" yet you support every measure designed to make sure that, had those measures already been in place, she would have become even more a victim.
ReplyDelete"wouldn't it still mean that to have a gun in the house is a bad idea?"
That's what you stated earlier.
John (formerly M.A.), Thanks for the comments. I should have recognized your style. I agree the root problem is in the society, but attempting to fix that, it's hard to come up with concrete elements that can be addressed. That's why I focus on the "tool."
ReplyDeleteThirdpower, You're right. My saying "thank god she had that gun," is hard to reconcile with some of my other remarks. The answer is simple. In any single example, which they often refer to as anecdotal, you can illustrate either side of the argument. This case supports your side beautifully.
But, I believe in those surveys and polls and reports and studies that have suggested that for every one of these, you've got a number of bad gun incidents. For me the bad outweighs the good. Nevertheless, in this particular case, I say, "thank god she had the gun."
MikeB,
ReplyDeleteIt isn't hard to come up with the answers to fix society.
I listed 8 at OneUtah that would result in resolving most of the problems.
The problem is getting people like you to realize what the problems are and to address them instead of attacking the tool.
How about you look at my solutions over there and tell me how those wouldn't fix the problem, eh?
And as I said to Becky, My solutions don't require anyone who ISN"T GUILTY to give up their rights. Isnt that a better idea that what you've proposed?
"For me the bad outweighs the good. "
ReplyDeleteBased on your feelings. Not the reality. You take information and numbers from the anti-gun groups and hold them to your breast w/o question but, when shown a drop in crime by the FBI, you dismiss the numbers as having been fudged w/o any support whatsoever.
Are you even being honest w/ yourself?
Mike B, anything in this world that is worth having or achieving takes work. We need to forget the tool. Yes a tool can be abused and misused. We need to be sure that people are taught how and when to properly use that tool.
ReplyDeleteWe also need to resolve the issues that cause people to misuse the tool. As I have previously stated, we need to educate people. Our schools are in a mess. We have over worked teachers, and those who teach that do not care. Our classrooms are over crowded, our children are drugged. Our classrooms are nearly standing room only, that is if you do not have class in an office trailer. With a decent education you have so many opportunities available.
We need to have jobs available that pay a living wage. A few years ago Morgan Spurlok, on his show 30 Days, attempted to live for a month only making minimum wage. By the end of the show he and his wife, both of which were working, were in the hole. If a family could make enough to live, without both parents working, many children would have a parent at home. They could possibly spend less time in front of the idiot box, which glorifies violence.
We need to reduce the glorification of violence. You have movies, music and video games that promote it. Hell, I watched a kid no more than 12 years old by a copy of Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, and Call of Duty World at War. We have programs like TNA and the WWE, which some people, mainly people who are young believe to be real.
What I am getting at is this Mike, we do not have to make wholesale changes. We are not at the fire sale level just yet, but small changes in just what I have listed will help. Of course we need to move onto such things as giving care to those who have been abused or have come from abusive backgrounds. We need to care for those with obvious mental issues. Until we do that, we will never curb violence. That is what I want to see. I have explained why I carry and keep firearms. I work in a fairly dangerous line of work. Before that I had animals that I had to protect from the ignorance of neighbors about what their dogs do. I told you that we live in a fucked up world. It will always be that way. There will always be people who are not right.
Bob and John, I really do agree that there are deep-rooted problems in the society which need addressing. But, I think they are being addressed, however inadequately (you see, that's an example of using a perfectly good English word which has nothing to do with anatomy).
ReplyDeleteMy point is that we need to focus on the tool also, and because it's one of the most concrete elements in this complex mosaic, focusing on it can be useful.
"I believe in those surveys and polls and reports and studies"
ReplyDeleteYeah, you mean all the evidence that you repeatedly can't come up with to substantiate your claims?
"I've never read about gangs blowing up a government building. "
ReplyDeleteThat's probably because they less than 1 million of them are too busy committing 80% of the other violent crimes in this country.
But, I think they are being addressed, however inadequately (you see, that's an example of using a perfectly good English word which has nothing to do with anatomy).
ReplyDeleteFor what it is worth Mike, inadequate is the same as none. That is true for medical care, security, and many other things.