During emergency drills at Deer Creek Middle School, teacher David Benke used to tell his students that if anything ever happened, he wanted to be able to "do something about it."When he saw a man shooting at students as they were leaving the Littleton, Colorado, school on Tuesday, "What was going through my mind," Benke said, "was that I promised."
Benke tackled the gunman, who had shot and wounded two students, and with the help of another teacher and some bus drivers, was able to hold him until police arrived.
"I noticed that he was working a bolt-action rifle," he said. "I noticed that and realized that I had time to get him before he could chamber another round."
I'll bet the gun enthusiasts will ask why wasn't the teacher armed? That would have worked out better, I'm sure they'll say. What I say is, why was a mentally ill man able to walk into a school with his father's gun? If the father's description of the shooter is correct, then everyone who knew him should have known he can't be trusted with guns. Where were they?
The problem is in Colorado, like in many other places, guns are too much a way of life. Gun owners who prevent their friends from driving drunk wouldn't dare suggest they give up their guns. At stake is the sacred right of bearing arms, after all.
I say it's about time the lawful gun owners started to take responsibility for their own. Instead of shrugging their shoulders when one of their group breaks away and does something stupid, they should admit that they messed up again.
Sometimes it seems the pro-gun crowd want to be a cohesive group, enjoying strength in their huge numbers, but whenever something like this happens, they insist they have nothing to do with it.
What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
Your article failed to mention that the guy who stopped the shooter was a gun owner himself.
ReplyDelete"Instead of shrugging their shoulders when one of their group breaks away and does something stupid, they should admit that they messed up again."
As a black person, should I admit that I messed up when Michael Vick decided to kill a bunch of dogs? Of course not. That would be stupid. But by your logic, I should.
You are right Mike. Why do you think all of those Italians you live around support and protect Mafia killings in New York or New Jersey? They should stop them but they don't. Instead they pretend it doesn't matter to them and that they are not responsible even though they have shared responsibility. When you walk out on the street today, tell them all that they have blood on their hands. Oh, and ask them if they know where Jimmy Hoffa is too.
ReplyDeleteOh look, another shooting in a "gun free zone."
ReplyDeleteLooks like another success for the gun control advocates yet again.
MikeB, you want pro gun people to condemn the action?--done! I absolutely condemn this in-duh-vidual's actions.
ReplyDeleteYou want me as a gun owner to take responsibilty for another person? Hell no!
You can't possibly be that deranged, that unhinged from reality, can you?
A person commits a crime, and someone else is responsible for that? Last I checked, nobody else is responsible for what I do, and vice versa (with the exception of my kids, and even there, I'll argue that by the time they reach the age of 5, they know what they are doing).
I realize the latest gunloon meme is to pretend gunowners are some oppressed minority like blacks or gays. This, despite the fact the vast majority of gunloons hate both blacks and gays.
ReplyDeleteIf gunloons insist on creating such analogies--they really ought to realize their examples ought to be, you know, analagous. Here's why their analogy fails badly.
In the case of Michael Vick, there aren't many blacks running around suggesting animal abuse was a good thing or that dog fighting should be legal. Similarly, there aren't many Italian-Americans who champion the mafia or suggest its activities should be pardoned.
OTOH, you do have many gunloons demanding that no prohibitions be made WRT to access to firearms by mentally ill folks or criminals. Additionally, gunloons demand no restrictions on how people store their firearms or prevent their use by those who shouldn't have access to guns.
--JadeGold
Consider this, Shrimp:
ReplyDeleteTake a look at two recent shootings--the school shooting in CO and the murders in VA that killed 8. There's a common issue: those close to both shooters claimed they 'never saw it coming.' Those close to both shooters claim they weren't worried about either shooter having easy access to firearms.
Yet, when we look at the background of both shooters, these same people noted things like they heard voices or were extremely paranoid or built bunkers in the backyard or had run-ins with the law or couldn't hold a job or couldn't form friendships or were antisocial or abused drugs and alcohol, etc.
Yet, they 'never saw it coming.'
You're just ducking responsibility.
--JadeGold
Thanks JadeGold, that's exactly what I'm always talking about. The guys who collectively resist decent gun control laws and at the same time refuse to police their shooting buddies, obviously share in the responsibility for the mess.
ReplyDeleteMikeb utterly absolves me!
ReplyDeleteThe guys who collectively resist decent gun control laws and at the same time refuse to police their shooting buddies, obviously share in the responsibility for the mess.
Since not a single one of my "shooting buddies" (and I have more than a few) has ever done anything remotely like this, they would appear to be adequately "policed," so I am therefore clearly not one of the people Mikeb is holding responsible. My guess is that my situation is not unique (or even unusual) among the gun rights advocates who often post here, so I am not alone in having received Mikeb's highly sought after absolution.
Thank you, Mikeb--I'll sleep vastly better now.
Oh--and as I've told you before, Mikeb, if you think this is how we "actively resist" gun laws, you ain't seen nuthin' yet--and you want to keep it that way.
You want the innocent to accept responsibility for this act?
ReplyDeleteThen demand that anti-gun people accept the blame for ALL killings committed in "gun-free zones", shooting or otherwise.
Fair is fair.
And how am I ducking responsiblity? Did I personally know this guy? (no)
ReplyDeleteDo I personally know any people that hear voices? (no, not that I know of, anyway)
So, how can I be responsible for their actions? (I can't)
Here's another way to look at it. In both cases, a disturbed individual committed a crime. Guess what? There will always be disturbed individuals that think they're hearing voices, or mad at the world because they got picked on as a child, or upset that Julie McCoolie the prom queen turned them down. And those individuals will act out and lash out.
That is reality. Even if we could identify and stop most of them, we'll never be able to stop all of them. It simply isn't possible. And even if we could stop them from obtaining guns, they'd get explosives, knives, axes, cars or a million other ways to harm those they want to harm.
Taking guns out of the equation will only stop them from killing with guns. It will not stop them from killing, maiming and otherwise lashing out.
Taking guns away from everyone will not stop them. Prior restraint doesn't work. And blaming me because I recognize that and you don't is silly.
This, despite the fact the vast majority of gunloons hate both blacks and gays.
ReplyDeleteMore unsubstantiated claims with no proof whatsoever.
Since not a single one of my "shooting buddies" (and I have more than a few) has ever done anything remotely like this, they would appear to be adequately "policed,"
ReplyDeleteYet.
I'll guarantee--and I don't expect you to admit it--you have your doubts about one or more of your "shooting buddies."
It may be because one or more drinks a bit too much or you've seen them mishandle a firearm or you've witnessed some aberrant behavior or the such. But I know you have your doubts.
And when the day comes when something goes bad, you, too, will claim you 'never saw it coming.'
--JadeGold
I agree with Shrimp.
ReplyDeleteSince you're so keen on "Shared Responsibility" why aren't you calling for laws which hold property owners / administrators criminally liable when they set up a "gun-free zone / "victim disarmament zone."
How about holding the lawmakers who declare certain area's "gun-free" criminally liable for any deaths in those areas as well?
This, despite the fact the vast majority of gunloons hate both blacks and gays.
ReplyDeleteMethinks Jadegold is just projecting his own hatred & bigotry towards blacks and gays onto gun owners.
"I realize the latest gunloon meme is to pretend gunowners are some oppressed minority like blacks or gays. This, despite the fact the vast majority of gunloons hate both blacks and gays."
ReplyDeleteTypical baseless Jadegold nonsense.
"In the case of Michael Vick, there aren't many blacks running around suggesting animal abuse was a good thing or that dog fighting should be legal. Similarly, there aren't many Italian-Americans who champion the mafia or suggest its activities should be pardoned."
Nor are there many (if any) gun owners running around suggestion that shooting up a school is a good thing.
Again, you fail, Jade.
More made up Jade Gold bullshit.
ReplyDeleteWould it be so hard for him to just once show a cite for some of his nonsense?
JadeGold: "the vast majority of gunloons hate both blacks and gays"
ReplyDeleteHow about blacks and gays with guns?
The "vast majority of gunloons" seem to want more people to have guns -- that's one if the things that anti-gunowner advocates complain about. So how do you promote more people having guns but keep them away from blacks and gays? If I hate some people, I certainly don't want more of them to have guns!
"This, despite the fact the vast majority of gunloons hate both blacks and gays."
ReplyDeleteYou are way out of line, Jadegold.
-TS
TS, Why is JadeGold "way out of line?" Does that broad-brush description of most gun owners offend you personally? Why? Are you saying gun owners are immune to the prejudices that contaminate regular people? Are you saying there's no hatred of blacks and gays? What is it?
ReplyDeleteZorro said "not a single one of his shooting buddies," etc. etc. blah, blah, blah.
ReplyDeleteI say you're not looking close enough. And maybe that's fair enough, due to privacy concerns and respect for them, you don't look closely, but don't try to say that means your many "shooting buddies" are somehow immune to the ills that normal people suffer. C'mon don't make me link to the Famous 10% again, I'm getting sick of seeing it. It shoulda been 30%.
TS, Why is JadeGold "way out of line?"
ReplyDeleteBecause he/she offers no proof of the statement. I could say that the vast majority of gun control advocates are child molesters. Without offering any proof my statement would hold about the same weight as Jadegold's, which is to say none. I'm sure calling you a child molester would be offensive to you Mikeb, would it not? Gun owners feel the same way when some total idiot accuses them of hating gays and blacks.
I really don't understand why you condone this type of behavior on your blog. Rational discussion is one thing, unsubstantiated slandering is quite another.
Mikeb says:
ReplyDeleteTS, Why is JadeGold "way out of line?" Does that broad-brush description of most gun owners offend you personally? Why? Are you saying gun owners are immune to the prejudices that contaminate regular people? Are you saying there's no hatred of blacks and gays? What is it?
I see, Mikeb, that you conveniently leave out the part of Jadegold's mendacious hate speech that is most contemptible and offensive--the "vast majority" part. I doubt anyone denies that there exists among gun owners a homophobic element, and also a racially prejudiced element (with considerable overlap between those two elements).
The same can be said of virtually any group consisting of scores of millions of people. Jadegold's evidence of a "vast majority" of gun rights advocates subscribing to such disgusting attitudes is, I strongly suspect, nonexistent.
Mikeb also says:
I say you're not looking close enough. And maybe that's fair enough, due to privacy concerns and respect for them, you don't look closely . . .
Well, which is it, Mikeb? Am I "not looking close enough" at my friends, or is it "fair enough, due to privacy concerns . . . " that I don't spy on my friends, as apparently your sick fantasy dictates I should?
It's not even so much a matter of their privacy--it's the fact that we're not joined at the hip--I don't check their trash for empty liquor containers to monitor their alcohol consumption, I don't remove their wive's makeup, to check for bruises, etc.
. . . but don't try to say that means your many "shooting buddies" are somehow immune to the ills . . .
I don't say that--I just say that I haven't seen any indication that their possession of guns isn't a good thing for society.
. . . that normal people suffer.
Oh--so now my friends are "abnormal"?
Screw you, Mikeb.
"Does that broad-brush description of most gun owners offend you personally? Why?"
ReplyDeleteBecause it is untrue. It is slander. Re-read RuffRidr's reply. It accurately sums it up.
"Are you saying gun owners are immune to the prejudices that contaminate regular people? Are you saying there's no hatred of blacks and gays?"
Nope, we're not saying that there are no instances of it. There very well could be.
We're saying that its wrong to claim "the vast majority" of gun owners feel that way, especially since JadeGold obviously has no proof of such feelings amongst gun owners. If she did, she'd provide proof.
Shrimp said, "Nope, we're not saying that there are no instances of it. There very well could be."
ReplyDeleteI don't know where you live, man, but "there very well could be????"
Zorro, You're right I left out the "vast majority" phrase. That may be a bit of an exaggeration on JadeGold's part, but you guys more than make up for it. Shrimp said, there "could be" hatred of blacks and gays among gun owners. And you've relegated this phenomenon to just an "element."
ReplyDeleteI think your downplaying of it is the greater exaggeration.
Mikeb says:
ReplyDeleteI think your downplaying of it is the greater exaggeration.
And I expect about as much evidence backing up your assertion as I expect from Jadegold backing up his vile libel. Oh--but I hear you're not pleased with folks expecting an assertion to be backed up with . . . anything factual:
I say, reasonable people can indeed have honest dialogue with no evidence at all. They can easily talk about controversial issues, especially ones in which conflicting “proof” is offered on both sides.
Sometimes it’s less honest to insist upon proof instead of admitting obvious conclusions.
In fairness, if I were trying to defend the indefensible positions you take, I'd not be a big fan of pesky requirements for truth and evidence, myself.
By the way, even if Jadegold were not full of mendacious BS, with his "vast majority" ridiculousness, how is saying that within the gun rights advocacy community (like the vast majority of large communities), there is an element who hold homophobic and/or racially prejudiced attitudes "downplaying" anything? An "element" can be of any size.
In any case, I have nothing but contempt and loathing for such bigotry, and refuse to accept any guilt by association (since I don't associate with such people).
American "gun control" is rooted in racism, and the effort to defeat it is a civil rights imperative. We shall overcome.
Mikeb: "I think your downplaying of it is the greater exaggeration."
ReplyDeleteThen can we agree on this: "to the same extent among gunowners as in the general population"?
That's a reasonable statement, unless someone actually, you know, presents credible evidence to the contrary.
Mikeb,
ReplyDeleteI don't pretend to know the motivations and likes and dislikes of people who are not me. I can accurately guess at those motivations, likes and dislikes based upon observation and listening--but I still cannot "know" it.
Do I know some folks that own guns and dislike either blacks or gays? Sure. I know a few. Probably less than a dozen, and I truly have to think about it for a while to even fill that number.
Do I know lots more that have never expressed such opinions, or caused be to believe that they might harbor those feelings? Yes.
See, I don't hate black people, or gays, or latinos, or women or asians or blue people or whatever. And I generally will not hang around folks that do. That's not my preferred "people" to hang out with.
My boss is a great example of someone I know that is both a gun owner and a bigot. I don't approve of his dislike for minorities, but I also don't hang out with him. I work for him, and I tolerate his beliefs because he is free to believe as he wishes. He also is tolerant of my beliefs and doesn't use the n-word in front of me, and we generally don't talk on the subject anymore. We've agreed to disagree, sort of.
So, yeah I acknowledge that people like my boss are out there. But, based upon my experience, they are neither a vast majority of gun owners nor even a large minority. They are out there, but so what? Like all bigots and racists, they will always be out there, and eventually they will die. And their hatred and intolerance will die with them.
Oh, I’m not offended. Jadegold thinks that gunowners are all southern, white, redneck, homophobic, racists, males. That is why he/she will never win an argument.
ReplyDelete-TS
though my lesbian shooting buddy might be offended...
ReplyDelete-TS