and another image, from the collection of the Smithsonian, also with a cavalry style holster arrangement:
and this one, where both holsters are more clearly visible, second down, far right column:
One of the nice aspects of these various photos is that they clearly show Wild Bill Hickock's consistent pattern of hand gun carry over a period of time. While he sometimes is shown with a single revolver on one side or the other, this may or may not reflect a mirror effect with these images, as has been noted in other images from this time period, notably Billy the Kid.
But what it does show is that more often than not, Wild Bill is shown with a long barrel weapon, and when he IS shown with handguns, it is consistently done cavalry carry, revolver butt forward, worn higher on the hip not in a holster strapped to his thigh, and not in the sloppy, dangerous, uncomfortable and inconvenient manner of being shoved through the front of his belt. For anyone who routinely works in rough country or on horseback to favor sticking a gun through the front of their belt would be ludicrous then.....and now.
There are multiple photos of Wild Bill Hickock showing a cavalry style holster, sometimes on the right, sometimes on the left, sometimes with two pistols simultaneously. There are other, additional photos where it appears that he is carrying in a holster, but the gun and holster are under his coat somewhat, and the clarity does not make his use of this specific kind of holster as clear as these images do.
Hickock had a very distinctive face, and he appears to have been photographed often.
Anyone who has spent an amount of time around horses knows that riders mount from the horse's left, known as the near side, swinging one's right leg over to the cantle of the saddle and the back of the horse to the right side. The right side of the horse is the 'off side', and it is a rare horse that is trained for a rider to mount or dismount from that side. In the course of riding, particularly over any kind of natural terrain as contrasted with a flat, paved road, will find themselves bending frequently from the waist, whether it is in the course of jumping small obstacles on horseback, riding uphill where one leans forwards, or having to lean forward to either open a gate, make changes to a fence or cart from horseback, or to use one's roap, or to reach for the long barrel rifle that is customary in the old west, as well as any number of other activities such as checking the saddle girth, reaching for a canteen, etc. In addition there can be numerous occasions to mount and dismount. Of the two sides of the body, the right side would be even more uncomfortable and more unsafe for a 'mexican' or belt carry, than the left side; but neither side, nor the front center would be practical, much less desirable.
Anyone who rides, anyone who has clambered over the rough terrain of the American west that remains in a wild state similar to the old west, would recognize immediately how inconvenient and downright uncomfortable it would be to have a firearm stuck in their waistband or belt. Any gun carried in that fashion would be in the way, and would be a danger not only to the person carrying the weapon, but also a danger to the rider's horse. Cavalry carry holsters developed precisely BECAUSE riding caused weapons to bounce around dangerously if not secured. Now I have spent some time in the saddle, in places like Montana, on working ranches. In my experience, working real-world ranch hands, as distinct from gun loon fantasies, are very careful to keep their equipment (including firearms if any), secure.
From wikipedia on cavalry draw / cavalry style carry:
"Cavalry draw is a method used to extract a pistol from a holster, which is designed to carry the pistol butt-forward. The name and technique come from the gunleather used by the cavalry of both the United States Army and the Confederate States Army, during the Civil War. The pistol was in a covered holster carried high on the cavalryman's right side, but was placed butt-forward for crossdrawing by the left hand. The pistol was considered by the Army to be a secondary weapon, with the right hand used for the saber. Placement on the right permitted an alternate method to be used, allowing the right hand to draw the pistol if the sword were lost in battle.
In practice, however, the "alternate method" became the standard, with the sword being left in its sheath until the pistol and its spare loaded cylinders had been expended.
Later, it was found that the reversed holster can be more comfortable, especially when worn while sitting down, than the normal type holster. In addition, cavalry draw can be performed while sitting, as well as retaining the original off-hand crossdraw capability."
Wild Bill Hickock had a clear preference for the butt-forward cavalry draw, and for wearing a variety of holsters to facilitate that. as shown in collected photos and daguerreotypes of him.
This is in contrast to a couple of photos of him with belt carrying unsheathed knives and revolvers, or with a partially drawn knife, that appear to be staged for publicity photos as distinct from representing his actual habits of gun carry.
About the only way one could carry a firearm that would be more dangerous, or more stupid than belt carrying a revolver, to someone with experience riding in the western states, would be to hang their revolver from a string around one's neck, strung through the trigger guard, like some demented and dangerous lavaliere with the barrel pointing upwards. I'm just waiting--- waiting -- to come across a photo of one of our gun lunatics doing so, with their favorite manly fetish toy.
One of the lessons of history that I took from traveling through the western states as a child, including touring through museums, was listening to the tour leaders and history guides talking with a mixture of humor and disgust about how much myth and misinformation existed around wild west figures, like Hickock.
Apparently that hasn't improved with time.
I'm pleased to learn that you see a holster in those photographs. Unfortunately for you, how the revolvers are being carried isn't so clear. By the way, you are plain wrong about the third picture. Hickok is not the man second from the top in the far right column. He's the top picture of the second column from the left--the same picture that you showed above.
ReplyDeleteKeep trying, Dog Gone.
Ah, Greg Camp ever willing to show the world his astounding ignorance.
ReplyDeleteDo prove me wrong about the Hickock identification of that right hand side column second photo, if you can.
ReplyDeleteThe first photo looks nothing like the way that you carry in the photo of you.
In a holster, the butt of the firearm presents differently.
But most of all, you have failed to present a plausible argument that such a method of carry would be feasible, given the activities of Wild Bill.
I look forward to hearing from Texas Colt carry on this one.
There's no holster visible in the two pictures of Hickok alone. The second picture that you showed is at the top of the second column from the left in the third group of pictures. The name under the man in the middle of the far right column looks to be Austin. But also note the revolver stuck into the belt of the man in the middle of the far left column.
ReplyDeleteWow this is such an interesting and relevant argument.
ReplyDeleteGood one, MA. There is a holster, no there isn't, yes there is.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the laugh.
Sorry, Dog Gone and Greg, but that observation of MAgunnowner's was pretty funny.
Mikeb302000,
ReplyDeleteI'd be pleased to let this whole business go, but Dog Gone can't. What's the name for that condition in which a person has hyperfocus on minor details?
GC wrote:Mikeb302000,
ReplyDeleteI'd be pleased to let this whole business go, but Dog Gone can't. What's the name for that condition in which a person has hyperfocus on minor details?
I'll let it go just as soon as you concede you are wrong.
This is not about minor details Greg, but then I think you know that.
This is about examples of gun lunacy, of gun fantasy, of making up crap that creates a false history and which makes a very insidious emotional appeal to act irrationally.
I like my history straight up, and accurate.
I intensely dislike it when people take something that does not appear to be true, and use it to justify dangerous behavior and a fantasy view of history.
I dislike seeing history prostituted in the way that it seems to me that Greg has done.
Greg moans on and on and on about how he doesn't hurt anyone and he is safe and responsible with firearms.
Posing with his finger on the trigger - unsafe, and not by any stretch historically accurate - with a gun in his belt - not historically accurate either - is all about guns as fantasy objects, despite trying to equate them to screwdrivers or spoons or cars.
Guns aren't fashion accessories,and they aren't part of playing fantasy dress up.
That people like Greg use them that way is precisely why we refer to them derisively as their fetish objects.
This is not about insignificant details. It is about a much larger pattern of fantasy and irresponsibility and lack of objectivity and real safety. It is about hubris, and stupidity.
But Greg - again dishonestly - wants to mis-characterize this as a difference over an insignificant detail. It is not, it is a prime example of what we object to here regularly on a larger scale, a larger pattern that is bad, and wrong, and false, and dangerous, and emotional rather than rational, a pattern of conduct and belief that is not grounded in fact or objectivity.
Interesting subject, holsters. Personally, I dont carry on a horse with any of those old methods, while I have pics of my grand dad and great grand dad looking like some of those old pics shown here. I even have a couple of those old style holsters that we used just for the family pics to keep up the old traditions. But I have to say, retaining a pistol would just pure heck on horse back with those, and to draw, worse!
ReplyDeleteThe method of butt forward requires a cross, left to right and vise versa draw of the pistol. Its my belief that a lot of those methods were nothing more than glamorizing of the individual.
The cavalry, well back then the poor souls had to endure all different kinds of equipment and training considered modern or threating of the day. But today, that would about as modern as a Ford model T.
Practical horse carry depends a lot on the individual. I, for example, am a heavy set guy. Well maybe a little TOO heavy! I sit back and low in the saddle. A common holster, outside vertical carry just digs into my side. And also not as limber as most of the younger guys, cross draw or high draw just isn't going to happen.
My Colt is in a horizontal nylon holster butt forward and up. Basic ly the pistol is mostly upside down and secured with latching strap and of course, belted on the waist. This allows a slow ride that wont dump the pistol, or a fast gallop without digging in. Decent draw, but we are not doing shoot outs so fast draw is a thing of the past.
The rifle is scabbard on the right, horizontal, the shotgun on the left, vertical. To the right of the horn there is also a leather holster for the pistol when I am off the horse. Saddle bags that carry everything else and a rear saddle roll for pup tent, sleeping bags and blankets.
Each one of my hands carry differently all of their arms. But not one of us use any of those 200 year old methods. They are unsafe.
Over the years, as I have changed, and the body has changed, carry methods have also changed, so does the riding style. I have used several different holster styles. But all of them have to SAFELY retain the pistol or long arm.
In the truck I have whats commonly known as a 'tactical' holster. It hangs from the belt and straps around the leg. Here is a comfortable way to keep the pistol retained and out of the way when your in and out of the truck a lot.
I do keep a inside the waist band holster with me if I know I will have to go into town for supplies, but at this time of year, a long coat keeps it all covered. I never leave a pistol in the truck, or on my horse. The long arms will stay in the truck or on the horse, but the truck is locked and they are not visible and the horse, while I can lock the long arms to the scabbards. I dont worry about those on the horse much, he has a tendency to fight you if you get too close. Nobody gets close to that old fool!
"Mikeb302000,
ReplyDeleteI'd be pleased to let this whole business go, but Dog Gone can't. What's the name for that condition in which a person has hyperfocus on minor details?"
I think it's called, "Gregcampensation".
But, he's right Mikeb302000. Whenever he's wrong (which is most of the time) Greg want's others to "move on".
Democommie,
ReplyDeleteAnd again, you've missed the point. Please do add something to the conversation that isn't rage or a degradation of the language.
Dog Gone,
ReplyDeleteDo you have anything to say about the man on the left with a revolver in his belt or about your error in identifying the man on the right? This is, after all, your source that's supposed to prove that I was wrong.