There is no worse crime than political corruption. A politician is handed power on the condition that he do good with it. When he uses it to feather his own nest, he violates basic trust. That corrodes our system of government, which harms all of us, not just one person or a few persons.
Your hyperbolic ranting is just stupid. Is it worse than raping and murdering a 9-year-old? How about doing what Adam Lanza did, or Jared Loughner, is political corruption worse than those too?
Yes, Mikeb. The crimes you name are done to individuals. They're horrific. But public corruption is done to all of us. A crime done to more than 300,000,000 persons deserves the most severe punishment.
Greg you're "collective" justification of that inane statement is just typical of you. Your inability to admit you were wrong is your shining personality trait.
You may disagree with my position, but I'm not wrong for having it. Public corruption is the worst of crimes.
I'm going to play you for a moment. Why do you tolerate corrupt politicians? Is it because you're from New Jersey? Is it because you're worried about needing such tolerance in the future?
I don't tolerate them, I just want them punished in proportion to their crimes. Is fining them to the point of penury, placing them on probation and having them do community service, not enough for you? Is your exaggerated outrage hungry for more than that in order to justify your earlier unbelievable remark that political crimes are THE WORST.
A politician in Illinois, nay Chicago misusing his political position to commit crimes. How many politicians does that make cooling their heels in state prisons now? If you're allowed to make comments about the intelligence of people in the south, do we get to cast aspersions on Illinois politicians? Do we know anyone else who worked his way up the political ladder in Illinois?
He bought a few luxury items for himself. Is that really that bad?
Prison should be reserved for those we're afraid of not for those we're mad at. White collar criminals should be forced to make restitution first, then they could be fined to the point of penury, then they could do years of community service. Except for rare cases and multiple repeat offenders, this would be a better way to go.
So how can you justify throwing someone in prison because they sold a gun to a non-prohibited friend? Or because they own a 12 rd magazine? Or their rifle has plastic that covers the top of a barrel? I take it these are people who you are afraid of?
Mike B said, "He bought a few luxury items for himself. Is that really that bad?"
Its called fraud, he defrauded those that supported him, probably the worst type of contempt he could show his supporters.
But I will agree with you on the prison thing, white collar crimes will get him catering service in the gray bar hotel. Yep community service after he pays back every dime, with interest. Payment of the fines and then community work. You know, digging ditches 10 to 12 hours a day, ride on the back of a trash truck picking up trash cans and cleaning the streets. Cleaning the city dog pens, clearing the sewers. You know the kind of work that his supporters do that gave him money that he used to commit fraud. For at least FIVE YEARS!
It's a short step from lining your pockets to major corruption that looks the other way, allowing ever greater injustices. The path from pocket lining to murderous coverups is trod in little steps that "aren't really all that bad" when taken individually.
Political corruption is far more than some petty white collar crime. It's a cancer that has rotted the soul of our republic, and it's doubtful that anyone in D.C. would stay in office if we got serious on corruption.
I didn't say it was petty and I certainly didn't say non-violent gun crimes should result in prison sentences. What I said is prison is not the answer to this kind of thing. Texas Colt carrier said it exactly right.
You asked if what he did was "really that bad"--so, no, you didn't call his crime petty, but you did imply it.
As for the idea of restitution--working to repay both the theft of money and the violation of trust, I'm all for it. It would be a better use of resources to work convicts at hard labor to pay restitution rather than just put them in prison and have them be unproductive.
But non-violent gun crimes DO result in prison sentences. That is the way it is now, and that is constantly what gets proposed with new gun control laws like M-T. So are you saying it is not unreasonable for us to fight this stuff, and it is definitely not a mere inconvenience?
Also, what do you do with the 32.5 million people whom you've disqualified from gun ownership if they are caught with a gun? Put them on Double secret disqualification? No, you throw them in prison for a non-violent gun crime.
I want to clarify something that has come a few times between us, Mike. On several occasions I say something about doing away with victimless crimes, and you come back with something along the lines of how you don't want to lock people up for non-violent crimes (which seems like a joke when you say that, but that's for another day). There is a difference between victimless and non-violent. I'm ok with locking up non-violent criminals, and these white collar criminals like JJJ and Bernie Madoff are perfect examples. There are real victims from these crimes. Do you think they shouldnt do time- just lose their gun rights?
Madoff stole orders of magnitude more money, but $750,000 isn't exactly chump change. They both used their position to commit fraud and steal what they had access to. To call three quarters of a million dollars the start of the spectrum means stealing anything less than that shouldn't even be a crime.
"Prison should be reserved for those we're afraid of not for those we're mad at. White collar criminals should be forced to make restitution first, then they could be fined to the point of penury, then they could do years of community service."
I agree with you on pretty much everything except the last part. The first part of your comment suggests a good philosophy. So, after he's made restitution, both for compensatory and punitive damages, he's square. My argument against forced community service is that especially as a "public servant" he screwed the pooch. I would make the argument that he never again be allowed to participate in community service. Unless of course the voters are crazy enough to vote him back into office. Not such a stretch of the imagination if we're talking about Chicago.
I would say barred from public service, but not community service that I outlined in a response to Mike. Never allowed to hold a public office, anything that has to do politics, or is paid by tax payer money.
He should be taken out back and shot. Political corruption is the worst possible crime.
ReplyDeleteWhaaaaat?
DeleteThere is no worse crime than political corruption. A politician is handed power on the condition that he do good with it. When he uses it to feather his own nest, he violates basic trust. That corrodes our system of government, which harms all of us, not just one person or a few persons.
DeleteYour hyperbolic ranting is just stupid. Is it worse than raping and murdering a 9-year-old? How about doing what Adam Lanza did, or Jared Loughner, is political corruption worse than those too?
DeleteYes, Mikeb. The crimes you name are done to individuals. They're horrific. But public corruption is done to all of us. A crime done to more than 300,000,000 persons deserves the most severe punishment.
DeleteAnother kill crazy gun loon.
DeleteOh, goodie, Anonymous is back...
DeleteGreg you're "collective" justification of that inane statement is just typical of you. Your inability to admit you were wrong is your shining personality trait.
DeleteYou may disagree with my position, but I'm not wrong for having it. Public corruption is the worst of crimes.
DeleteI'm going to play you for a moment. Why do you tolerate corrupt politicians? Is it because you're from New Jersey? Is it because you're worried about needing such tolerance in the future?
I don't tolerate them, I just want them punished in proportion to their crimes. Is fining them to the point of penury, placing them on probation and having them do community service, not enough for you? Is your exaggerated outrage hungry for more than that in order to justify your earlier unbelievable remark that political crimes are THE WORST.
DeleteA politician in Illinois, nay Chicago misusing his political position to commit crimes. How many politicians does that make cooling their heels in state prisons now?
ReplyDeleteIf you're allowed to make comments about the intelligence of people in the south, do we get to cast aspersions on Illinois politicians? Do we know anyone else who worked his way up the political ladder in Illinois?
He bought a few luxury items for himself. Is that really that bad?
DeletePrison should be reserved for those we're afraid of not for those we're mad at. White collar criminals should be forced to make restitution first, then they could be fined to the point of penury, then they could do years of community service. Except for rare cases and multiple repeat offenders, this would be a better way to go.
So how can you justify throwing someone in prison because they sold a gun to a non-prohibited friend? Or because they own a 12 rd magazine? Or their rifle has plastic that covers the top of a barrel? I take it these are people who you are afraid of?
DeleteMike B said,
Delete"He bought a few luxury items for himself. Is that really that bad?"
Its called fraud, he defrauded those that supported him, probably the worst type of contempt he could show his supporters.
But I will agree with you on the prison thing, white collar crimes will get him catering service in the gray bar hotel. Yep community service after he pays back every dime, with interest. Payment of the fines and then community work. You know, digging ditches 10 to 12 hours a day, ride on the back of a trash truck picking up trash cans and cleaning the streets. Cleaning the city dog pens, clearing the sewers. You know the kind of work that his supporters do that gave him money that he used to commit fraud. For at least FIVE YEARS!
It's a short step from lining your pockets to major corruption that looks the other way, allowing ever greater injustices. The path from pocket lining to murderous coverups is trod in little steps that "aren't really all that bad" when taken individually.
DeletePolitical corruption is far more than some petty white collar crime. It's a cancer that has rotted the soul of our republic, and it's doubtful that anyone in D.C. would stay in office if we got serious on corruption.
I didn't say it was petty and I certainly didn't say non-violent gun crimes should result in prison sentences. What I said is prison is not the answer to this kind of thing. Texas Colt carrier said it exactly right.
DeleteYou asked if what he did was "really that bad"--so, no, you didn't call his crime petty, but you did imply it.
DeleteAs for the idea of restitution--working to repay both the theft of money and the violation of trust, I'm all for it. It would be a better use of resources to work convicts at hard labor to pay restitution rather than just put them in prison and have them be unproductive.
But non-violent gun crimes DO result in prison sentences. That is the way it is now, and that is constantly what gets proposed with new gun control laws like M-T. So are you saying it is not unreasonable for us to fight this stuff, and it is definitely not a mere inconvenience?
DeleteAlso, what do you do with the 32.5 million people whom you've disqualified from gun ownership if they are caught with a gun? Put them on Double secret disqualification? No, you throw them in prison for a non-violent gun crime.
I want to clarify something that has come a few times between us, Mike. On several occasions I say something about doing away with victimless crimes, and you come back with something along the lines of how you don't want to lock people up for non-violent crimes (which seems like a joke when you say that, but that's for another day). There is a difference between victimless and non-violent. I'm ok with locking up non-violent criminals, and these white collar criminals like JJJ and Bernie Madoff are perfect examples. There are real victims from these crimes. Do you think they shouldnt do time- just lose their gun rights?
ReplyDeleteMadoff is one thing, Jessie Jr. is another. You're talking about two ends of the spectrum.
DeleteIn my opinion, gun rights should not be forfeited over white collar convictions.
Madoff stole orders of magnitude more money, but $750,000 isn't exactly chump change. They both used their position to commit fraud and steal what they had access to. To call three quarters of a million dollars the start of the spectrum means stealing anything less than that shouldn't even be a crime.
Delete"Prison should be reserved for those we're afraid of not for those we're mad at. White collar criminals should be forced to make restitution first, then they could be fined to the point of penury, then they could do years of community service."
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on pretty much everything except the last part. The first part of your comment suggests a good philosophy. So, after he's made restitution, both for compensatory and punitive damages, he's square.
My argument against forced community service is that especially as a "public servant" he screwed the pooch. I would make the argument that he never again be allowed to participate in community service. Unless of course the voters are crazy enough to vote him back into office. Not such a stretch of the imagination if we're talking about Chicago.
I would say barred from public service, but not community service that I outlined in a response to Mike. Never allowed to hold a public office, anything that has to do politics, or is paid by tax payer money.
Delete