The video reporter says, "Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clark quickly noted the gun laws the mayor is blaming deal with concealed carry permits."
That's the misdirection Megyn Kelly picked up on. Filthy liars, all.
Plus, The video commenter says that gun rights groups claim not one of the Milaukee murders was done by a permit holder. The Fox stooge Marc Thiessen said there was one murder committed by a concealed carry permit holder, apparently not in Milwaukee. Yet the VPC has two listed, both in Milwaukee.
The truth is there are two THAT WE KNOW ABOUT. That means there are more than two, we just don't know how many. Then, let's not forget to consider all the misuse of guns committed by permit holders that falls short of murder. That's how we get percentages that are equal to gun owners at large and the general public, in spite of all the lies and tricks the gun rights defenders try to pull in order to claim the incredible.
"The truth is there are two THAT WE KNOW ABOUT. That means there are more than two, we just don't know how many. Then, let's not forget to consider all the misuse of guns committed by permit holders that falls short of murder. That's how we get percentages that are equal to gun owners at large and the general public, in spite of all the lies and tricks the gun rights defenders try to pull in order to claim the incredible."
ReplyDeleteActually Mike, there are three homicides committed by two permit holders. And the issue of statistical data is easily remedied by adopting requirements for the collection of such data like Minnesota adopted back when it enacted its shall issue permit system. It would be an easy thing to do. Perhaps the MOMs or Everytown could make that one of their priorities. Likely not though, since they seem to have the same issues with collecting accurate data as the VPC has.
The CDC shows 327 firearm homicides from 2011 when Wisconsin began issuing carry permits until 2013. I had to find the total for 2014 from the media.
So we get a total of 437. Of this total, three were committed by carry permit holders. That seems to come to less than 1%.
"Two fatal shootings in Milwaukee this past week pushed last year's tentative final total of gun homicides in Wisconsin to 111."
http://www.wpr.org/tentative-final-tally-wisconsin-gun-homicides-2014-stands-111
Why don't we lower the bar just a tad bit. Murder is not the only action that should count, don't you agree?
Delete"Then, let's not forget to consider all the misuse of guns committed by permit holders that falls short of murder. That's how we get percentages that are equal to gun owners at large and the general public, in spite of all the lies and tricks the gun rights defenders try to pull in order to claim the incredible."
ReplyDeleteHi Mike,
Just as a follow up to my previous comment, I find that Texas has actually outdone Minnesota in the area of collecting crime data by permit holders. Not only do they count crimes that fall short of homicide, but they compare the numbers of crimes committed by permit holders with the number of total convictions. In 2013, that percentage was just over .31%.
http://dps.texas.gov/RSD/CHL/Reports/ConvictionRatesReport2013.pdf
I find that hard to believe. The data collection could be poorly done, in other words many crimes are committed by people who happen to be permit holders but no one's the wiser.
DeleteIt just doen't make sense that permit holders would be ANY better behaved than any other group. Getting a permit is so easy - it doesn't screen out people who are actually not fit.
I cant speak to the methods used to produce the Texas report, but in Minnesota, its required by law for prosecutors when charging someone to check for a permit and to inform the issuing Sheriff upon bringing charges. And after conviction, reporting for inclusion in the annual report.
DeleteMikeB: "It just doen't make sense that permit holders would be ANY better behaved than any other group."
DeleteYou keep changing what the claim is. The claim is not that they are better behaved "than any other group". The claim is that they are more law abiding than the populace as a whole.
"It just doen't make sense that permit holders would be ANY better behaved than any other group. Getting a permit is so easy - it doesn't screen out people who are actually not fit."
DeleteThen how do you explain the large disparity between homicides committed by permit holders as opposed to those who aren't? I would suggest that law abiding citizens who make the decision to carry a firearm for personal defense understand the gravity of that decision and act accordingly in light of the responsibilities they are taking on. Just like those who carry a firearm for the purpose of using force to exert their will for personal gain understand their motivations.
The permit makes it easier to tell the two apart in their intent. After all, how then do we measure in Constitutional carry states since they don't have a permit to issue to confer respectability to the citizen. The citizens all get that respectability by default, almost like its a right. Unless of course the citizen loses that right through due process.
TS, isn't the claim also that they are better behaved than gun owners at large?
DeleteI can't say I've seen someone say that. And do you mean gun owners at large, or legal gun owners at large?
DeleteLegal gun owners, of course.
DeleteWOW, there are people out there who don't know FOX is full of liars? That's funny!
ReplyDeleteWhat's the "lie" here, again? Barrett blames the laws that the state passed "in the last few years." What gun laws has Wisconsin passed in that time, apart from concealed carry (and maybe "stand your ground"--not sure about that one, but if so, that, too is a law about the carrying of defensive handguns)?
ReplyDeleteIn other words, he is blaming carry laws for these killings, without presenting any evidence that the killer(s?) had been empowered by the laws.
"and maybe stand your ground," and maybe some others, right, Kurt?
DeleteThe Mayor was talking in general terms about looser and looser gun laws which Scott Walker supports. He obviously was not limiting his complaints to the concealed carry laws.
"and maybe stand your ground," and maybe some others, right, Kurt?
DeleteOK, I'll play--what "others," Mikeb? Barrett specifically mentioned gun laws passed by the state legislature, and signed into law by Governor Walker, "in the last few years" as the factor driving "more guns on the streets of the city of Milwaukee."
I'll accept that legalized concealed carry "puts more guns on the streets" (as if that's a bad thing), and for now, I won't bother to dispute the rather odder notion that Stand Your Ground laws do, too, but what other laws could do such a thing? Wisconsin hasn't passed any laws in the last few years that shorten the "prohibited persons" list, or remove background checks from gun purchase requirements.
Your claim that Barrett was "talking in general terms about looser and looser gun laws which Scott Walker supports" is directly contradicted by the specifics of his own words.
I don't hear it that way, Kurt.
DeleteThat's how we get percentages that are equal to gun owners at large and the general public . . .
ReplyDeleteThat just doesn't make sense, Mikeb. The permitting process itself filters out many who are more likely than most to engage in violent crime (ex-convicts, domestic violence offenders, etc.), Such people, obviously, are not filtered out of the general population. Therefore, the general population will inevitably contain a higher percentage of such people than does the pool of permit holders.
That does make sense. Thanks.
DeleteBut, haven't we also heard that permit holders are better than gun owners at large? How do you explain that one?
But, haven't we also heard that permit holders are better than gun owners at large? How do you explain that one?
DeleteI don't really have to "explain that one," because I don't believe I've made that argument before, but it does appear to me that there is a readily apparent explanation. The bar to carry a firearm in most states is set higher than the bar to own one. Yes--I realize that you think that the bar for both is absurdly low in most (if not all) states, but I don't think you can deny that the bar for carry is generally higher than the bar for ownership.
Therefore, as a general rule, carry permit holders are subjected to somewhat higher standards than gun owners in general (and again, the fact that you believe that neither is subjected to nearly high enough standards is a separate discussion).
The difference between permit holders and other gun owners would be indistinguishable. I do accept your point about the general populaton including many types of prohibited persons. I think I've been wrong about that one.
DeleteThe difference between permit holders and other gun owners would be indistinguishable.
DeleteHow can you say that? There are still something like 9 states only permit concealed carry on a "may issue" basis. Name one that forces such requirements for mere purchase and ownership of a firearm.
In other words, carry of firearms is more heavily regulated than ownership is.
All right, minimal, not indistinguishable.
Delete