I'm not a big fan of videos because they tend to drag on no matter what side of the argument they take. This video was exceptional because they started out being wrong and then moved on to quoting the VPC, never a safe route to take when you are trying for accuracy. I did manage to last through the whole thing and lets look at some of the major points,
First, they are just plain wrong on the guns at the convention thing. The NRA is, as it normally does, complying with local law wherever the convention is being held.
"As Blake Farmer of member station WPLN in Nashville tells our Newscast unit, one of the venues is enforcing its ban on guns. Here's more: "[I]t's not unusual for meeting sites to restrict guns. In Nashville, those with carry permits are allowed in the convention hall, but not across the street in Bridgestone Arena, where the nightly concerts are held." And, as Blake notes, display firearms on the exhibit floor at the NRA convention will have their firing pins removed — which is typical for such shows. Bob Owens, editor of BearingArms.com, a gun-rights website, writes: "The National Rifle Association holds an annual meeting every year in a different host city, and requires that attendees follow the federal, state, and local laws applicable in that city, like every major convention of every significant national group, ever. "This year in Tennessee, that means that attendees can indeed carry firearms in the Music City Center with the proper license in accordance with Tennessee law. Bridgestone Arena prohibits the possession of firearms, and always has. Attendees to the concerts held there are not allowed to carry weapons according to these pre-existing laws."
I'm sort of surprised at the list of states from the VPC since they included DC AND Maryland. Both are states that have strict gun laws, and DC normally gets left off of their lists because they usually use the old "its not a state" argument. And towards the end, when he was giving his opinion, he finally tired of trying to use some appearance of logic and came out and said he doesn't care what we think.
You are correct Sammy, though it is the equivalent of a state for all intents and purposes. For example, the CDC and the FBI list DC along with other states in their reports. Even the guy in the video refers to it as a state when he reads the list, though in fairness this is more a reflection of the professional skills of Mr. video guy since the VPC does grammatically separate DC from the other states in its statement.
"The analysis found that in 2013, there were 17 states where there were more gun deaths than motor vehicle deaths: Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wyoming, along with the District of Columbia."
http://www.vpc.org/press/1504cars.htm
Normally, the VPC just doesn't mention data which doesn't support its narrative, which is why I was surprised at the mention of DC and Maryland. I also see that they have a "new" Concealed Carry Killers website. I'll have to take a look at it to see if they've actually done anything with its bad data issues, or just put a fancier wrapper on it.
Mike, you just have to watch the video you posted above this one to see what the policy refers to. It is for those show floor guns that thousands of people will be handling- not for your own personal protection weapons. This journalist could have done just a tiny bit of research if they wanted to be taken seriously. This NRA policy is the equivalent of a car show having a policy to not allow gassed up cars with the keys in the ignition on the show floor that thousands of people will sit in.
And I like how this guy claims to be pro-2A but would like to see handguns banned in all urban areas.
Seriously, Mike, showing videos of other people telling a lie we've debunked before doesn't make the lie any more true. It just shows that the anti-gun side is a fact averse echo chamber.
As SSG said, guns were allowed in the convention. Ammo included. I carried concealed the entire time, and at the Firearms Law Seminar the day before. There were others carrying openly, both at the convention and at the law seminar (Yes, Virginia, I'm not the only heat packin' lawyer).
The only place we couldn't carry was at the Arena where concerts were held, by their rule, not NRA's; parks, by Nashville's rules, not NRA's; and places that posted appropriate signage. Two swanky restaurants I ate at had not posted, which I discovered after having left my gun behind assuming they would have (bad assumption based on some of the dishonest media coverage). When I went out at night, some honkytonks had posted signs. Others hadn't and were leaving it up to patrons to abide by the law and only drink sodas, if packing, while listening to the music which is what I did in one such place. One of the non-posted ones had even put Gadsden flags out front as a marketing ploy. The hookah bar I'd been to before when in Nashville hadn't posted anything but was standing room only, so I went to another one that turned out to be posted. Wasn't carrying that night, so I went in for a nice evening--better hookah than the first place too.
One final, fun observation: There was a Panera Bread between the conference center where the Law Seminar was held and the main convention hall. It had apparently had a sign posting it as "No Guns Allowed." You could still see where there was a little transfer from the sign onto the glass, but the management had removed the sign because of the convention. I guess they wanted customers more than they wanted to make Mom's Demand happy--especially since the NRA was everywhere, and I never did see any Mom's Demand or Everytown protestors--and I looked for them! (I'm sure they made an appearance, but it wasn't large enough or long enough for me to spot them--maybe it was the first day when I was in a conference the whole time.)
The individuals in the gun control movement who originated this story either knew it was wrong or said it with complete disregard for whether it was true or not. The anti-gun groups had done the same thing at the last NRA convention and had been corrected then about how all the NRA was doing was complying with local laws. They should have remembered that and actually looked into the laws before shooting off their mouths.
As for the commentators in the video above, and all of the many news outlets that printed stories that they had to correct (Including the NY Times and MSNBC), whether they're old media or new media, these journalists have an obligation to do a little research into what they report, not just read off press releases from groups they like.
If they didn't know that the story was false, it was only through dereliction of their journalistic duty, which I consider as shameful as outright telling lies--what shame it lacks in intentionality is made up for because of the laziness involved.
What's missed in all the hyperventilating by gunloons are several salient points.
First, display or floor firearms are required to be disabled.
Second, the concert hall bans guns.
Third, TN actually did a last minute tweak to its gun laws to allow concealed carry in some areas.
Fourth, why is the NRA paying a quarter million dollars for police security at its events if as we are constantly told that such security is useless when you have armed gunloons around?
"Fourth, why is the NRA paying a quarter million dollars for police security at its events if as we are constantly told that such security is useless when you have armed gunloons around?"
The short answer is that its a requirement of the convention center.
"Safety & Security Requirements We know how important safety is to you and your customers. The NCC maintains twenty-four (24) hour security for building perimeter areas and internal patrols. Cameras are strategically located throughout the building. All clients of the NCC are responsible for complete security within exhibit areas, meeting rooms, and other areas to be used by the client. Clients are required to provide security once equipment is placed on the floor in leased areas until completion of move-out. The NCC’s Security Department shall have final approval of security requirements for all events conducted within the facility."
So the NRA is required to provide security, but the facility has the final say as to whether its adequate. It works the same way with many other public venues. It gives the police officers a chance to see free stuff while pulling in some money. Most of these venues exist in sort of a public/private circle jerk where they scratch each others' back.
"Of course, guns are banned at the NRA convention."
Well lookie there. Jade is still willing to show he has less integrity than Joan Peterson and the many other anti-gunners who have backed off this claim.
"What's missed in all the hyperventilating by gunloons are several salient points."
Oh, this should be good!
"First, display or floor firearms are required to be disabled."
Um, Jade...pst...you're embarrassing yourself...we haven't missed that, in fact, we've noted that in every piece debunking your side's lies about the convention.
"Second, the concert hall bans guns."
Again, we've noted this repeatedly, not missed it. Also, as we've noted before, and as you note now: The concert hall does this, NOT the NRA.
"Third, TN actually did a last minute tweak to its gun laws to allow concealed carry in some areas."
Of what do you speak, Jade? The only gun bill that has passed this year has to do with guns in vehicles. Maybe you should check your source on this--sounds like they're wrong.
"Fourth, why is the NRA paying a quarter million dollars for police security at its events if as we are constantly told that such security is useless when you have armed gunloons around?"
Sarge answered the why pretty well. As for your comment about being constantly told that armed security is useless, you must be getting that from the NRA's program which encouraged placing armed officers at schools. Oh, by the way, it was your side saying this would be worthless.
"If you gun lovers were right, there'd be no need for any security, let alone an increase."
Mike, the security requirements I listed are the same no matter who uses the venue. And keep in mind that the convention is open to the public. So along with being an NRA event, its also a big gun show. As for the perceived requirement for extra security, what exactly are all those officers doing? Perhaps SJ can kick in with his observations, but at the few gun shows I've been to, the security folk often check for receipts on outgoing firearms to prevent theft. Since carry is legal there, they certainly weren't there to prevent that. Or perhaps, the security was used over at the concerts where carry isn't legal. Sounds like the NRA is footing the bill for both. I'm waiting, or at least hoping to hear of the fearsome spike in gun violence as a result of some seventy thousand people carrying guns in Nashville. For some reason that didn't seem to happen last year.
As SSG noted twice now, the security requirements were required by the venue, not the NRA. I don't know all the details of the venue, but I think, especially from what Southern Beale said in the piece Flying Junior linked to last week, that it was a project funded in whole or in part by the City of Nashville, meaning that they probably set those requirements.
As for SSG's question about what they were doing, I saw them providing security at the Music City Hall where the main part of the convention was. I didn't see any at the law conference at a private hotel's conference center, and I didn't shell out the extra cash to go to the events at the Bridgestone Arena, so I can't speak to that location.
As for the ones at the main convention, they weren't having to check receipts or anything like that--there wasn't much on sale at the convention. Too many attendees from out of state and too many vendors from out of state, so guns weren't being sold, and very few accessories were either. Mostly, people at booths were demonstrating new products and taking orders for products to either be shipped to individuals (in the case of accessories) or FFLs (in the case of any guns ordered).
The cops were mostly wandering around, watching the crowd with bored looks, or sneaking in to wander the show for free. I ran into several who were looking at things inside the show and even had a brief conversation with one of them about a type of sight we both thought was interesting but impractical.
I'm not a big fan of videos because they tend to drag on no matter what side of the argument they take. This video was exceptional because they started out being wrong and then moved on to quoting the VPC, never a safe route to take when you are trying for accuracy.
ReplyDeleteI did manage to last through the whole thing and lets look at some of the major points,
First, they are just plain wrong on the guns at the convention thing. The NRA is, as it normally does, complying with local law wherever the convention is being held.
"As Blake Farmer of member station WPLN in Nashville tells our Newscast unit, one of the venues is enforcing its ban on guns. Here's more:
"[I]t's not unusual for meeting sites to restrict guns. In Nashville, those with carry permits are allowed in the convention hall, but not across the street in Bridgestone Arena, where the nightly concerts are held."
And, as Blake notes, display firearms on the exhibit floor at the NRA convention will have their firing pins removed — which is typical for such shows.
Bob Owens, editor of BearingArms.com, a gun-rights website, writes:
"The National Rifle Association holds an annual meeting every year in a different host city, and requires that attendees follow the federal, state, and local laws applicable in that city, like every major convention of every significant national group, ever.
"This year in Tennessee, that means that attendees can indeed carry firearms in the Music City Center with the proper license in accordance with Tennessee law. Bridgestone Arena prohibits the possession of firearms, and always has. Attendees to the concerts held there are not allowed to carry weapons according to these pre-existing laws."
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/04/09/398510507/is-the-nra-really-banning-guns-at-its-convention
I'm sort of surprised at the list of states from the VPC since they included DC AND Maryland. Both are states that have strict gun laws, and DC normally gets left off of their lists because they usually use the old "its not a state" argument.
And towards the end, when he was giving his opinion, he finally tired of trying to use some appearance of logic and came out and said he doesn't care what we think.
Washington D. C. IS NOT a State.
Delete"Washington D. C. IS NOT a State."
DeleteYou are correct Sammy, though it is the equivalent of a state for all intents and purposes. For example, the CDC and the FBI list DC along with other states in their reports.
Even the guy in the video refers to it as a state when he reads the list, though in fairness this is more a reflection of the professional skills of Mr. video guy since the VPC does grammatically separate DC from the other states in its statement.
"The analysis found that in 2013, there were 17 states where there were more gun deaths than motor vehicle deaths: Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wyoming, along with the District of Columbia."
http://www.vpc.org/press/1504cars.htm
Normally, the VPC just doesn't mention data which doesn't support its narrative, which is why I was surprised at the mention of DC and Maryland. I also see that they have a "new" Concealed Carry Killers website. I'll have to take a look at it to see if they've actually done anything with its bad data issues, or just put a fancier wrapper on it.
So how many times must this silly myth be debunked before the hucksters stop pushing it?
ReplyDeleteInfinite. The hucksters intent is to push even the known myths.
DeleteMike, you just have to watch the video you posted above this one to see what the policy refers to. It is for those show floor guns that thousands of people will be handling- not for your own personal protection weapons. This journalist could have done just a tiny bit of research if they wanted to be taken seriously. This NRA policy is the equivalent of a car show having a policy to not allow gassed up cars with the keys in the ignition on the show floor that thousands of people will sit in.
ReplyDeleteAnd I like how this guy claims to be pro-2A but would like to see handguns banned in all urban areas.
"gassed up cars" And I thought you'd already exhausted all the possibile comparisons.
DeleteSeriously, Mike, showing videos of other people telling a lie we've debunked before doesn't make the lie any more true. It just shows that the anti-gun side is a fact averse echo chamber.
ReplyDeleteAs SSG said, guns were allowed in the convention. Ammo included. I carried concealed the entire time, and at the Firearms Law Seminar the day before. There were others carrying openly, both at the convention and at the law seminar (Yes, Virginia, I'm not the only heat packin' lawyer).
The only place we couldn't carry was at the Arena where concerts were held, by their rule, not NRA's; parks, by Nashville's rules, not NRA's; and places that posted appropriate signage. Two swanky restaurants I ate at had not posted, which I discovered after having left my gun behind assuming they would have (bad assumption based on some of the dishonest media coverage). When I went out at night, some honkytonks had posted signs. Others hadn't and were leaving it up to patrons to abide by the law and only drink sodas, if packing, while listening to the music which is what I did in one such place. One of the non-posted ones had even put Gadsden flags out front as a marketing ploy. The hookah bar I'd been to before when in Nashville hadn't posted anything but was standing room only, so I went to another one that turned out to be posted. Wasn't carrying that night, so I went in for a nice evening--better hookah than the first place too.
One final, fun observation: There was a Panera Bread between the conference center where the Law Seminar was held and the main convention hall. It had apparently had a sign posting it as "No Guns Allowed." You could still see where there was a little transfer from the sign onto the glass, but the management had removed the sign because of the convention. I guess they wanted customers more than they wanted to make Mom's Demand happy--especially since the NRA was everywhere, and I never did see any Mom's Demand or Everytown protestors--and I looked for them! (I'm sure they made an appearance, but it wasn't large enough or long enough for me to spot them--maybe it was the first day when I was in a conference the whole time.)
Thanks for the first hand report. Do you really think those commenters were lying, or were they just ignorant of the details you described?
DeleteMike,
DeleteThe individuals in the gun control movement who originated this story either knew it was wrong or said it with complete disregard for whether it was true or not. The anti-gun groups had done the same thing at the last NRA convention and had been corrected then about how all the NRA was doing was complying with local laws. They should have remembered that and actually looked into the laws before shooting off their mouths.
As for the commentators in the video above, and all of the many news outlets that printed stories that they had to correct (Including the NY Times and MSNBC), whether they're old media or new media, these journalists have an obligation to do a little research into what they report, not just read off press releases from groups they like.
If they didn't know that the story was false, it was only through dereliction of their journalistic duty, which I consider as shameful as outright telling lies--what shame it lacks in intentionality is made up for because of the laziness involved.
Of course, guns are banned at the NRA convention.
ReplyDeleteWhat's missed in all the hyperventilating by gunloons are several salient points.
First, display or floor firearms are required to be disabled.
Second, the concert hall bans guns.
Third, TN actually did a last minute tweak to its gun laws to allow concealed carry in some areas.
Fourth, why is the NRA paying a quarter million dollars for police security at its events if as we are constantly told that such security is useless when you have armed gunloons around?
"Fourth, why is the NRA paying a quarter million dollars for police security at its events if as we are constantly told that such security is useless when you have armed gunloons around?"
DeleteThe short answer is that its a requirement of the convention center.
"Safety & Security Requirements
We know how important safety is to you and your customers. The NCC maintains twenty-four (24) hour security for building perimeter areas and internal patrols. Cameras are strategically located throughout the building. All clients of the NCC are responsible for complete security within exhibit areas, meeting rooms, and other areas to be used by the client. Clients are required to provide security once equipment is placed on the floor in leased areas until completion of move-out. The NCC’s Security Department shall have final approval of security requirements for all events conducted within the facility."
http://www.nashvilleconventionctr.com/docs/ES_Handbook.pdf
So the NRA is required to provide security, but the facility has the final say as to whether its adequate. It works the same way with many other public venues. It gives the police officers a chance to see free stuff while pulling in some money.
Most of these venues exist in sort of a public/private circle jerk where they scratch each others' back.
"Of course, guns are banned at the NRA convention."
DeleteWell lookie there. Jade is still willing to show he has less integrity than Joan Peterson and the many other anti-gunners who have backed off this claim.
"What's missed in all the hyperventilating by gunloons are several salient points."
Oh, this should be good!
"First, display or floor firearms are required to be disabled."
Um, Jade...pst...you're embarrassing yourself...we haven't missed that, in fact, we've noted that in every piece debunking your side's lies about the convention.
"Second, the concert hall bans guns."
Again, we've noted this repeatedly, not missed it. Also, as we've noted before, and as you note now: The concert hall does this, NOT the NRA.
"Third, TN actually did a last minute tweak to its gun laws to allow concealed carry in some areas."
Of what do you speak, Jade? The only gun bill that has passed this year has to do with guns in vehicles. Maybe you should check your source on this--sounds like they're wrong.
"Fourth, why is the NRA paying a quarter million dollars for police security at its events if as we are constantly told that such security is useless when you have armed gunloons around?"
Sarge answered the why pretty well. As for your comment about being constantly told that armed security is useless, you must be getting that from the NRA's program which encouraged placing armed officers at schools.
Oh, by the way, it was your side saying this would be worthless.
Jade's fourth point is a good one. If you gun lovers were right, there'd be no need for any security, let alone an increase.
Delete"If you gun lovers were right, there'd be no need for any security, let alone an increase."
DeleteMike, the security requirements I listed are the same no matter who uses the venue. And keep in mind that the convention is open to the public. So along with being an NRA event, its also a big gun show.
As for the perceived requirement for extra security, what exactly are all those officers doing? Perhaps SJ can kick in with his observations, but at the few gun shows I've been to, the security folk often check for receipts on outgoing firearms to prevent theft.
Since carry is legal there, they certainly weren't there to prevent that. Or perhaps, the security was used over at the concerts where carry isn't legal. Sounds like the NRA is footing the bill for both.
I'm waiting, or at least hoping to hear of the fearsome spike in gun violence as a result of some seventy thousand people carrying guns in Nashville. For some reason that didn't seem to happen last year.
Mike,
DeleteAs SSG noted twice now, the security requirements were required by the venue, not the NRA. I don't know all the details of the venue, but I think, especially from what Southern Beale said in the piece Flying Junior linked to last week, that it was a project funded in whole or in part by the City of Nashville, meaning that they probably set those requirements.
As for SSG's question about what they were doing, I saw them providing security at the Music City Hall where the main part of the convention was. I didn't see any at the law conference at a private hotel's conference center, and I didn't shell out the extra cash to go to the events at the Bridgestone Arena, so I can't speak to that location.
As for the ones at the main convention, they weren't having to check receipts or anything like that--there wasn't much on sale at the convention. Too many attendees from out of state and too many vendors from out of state, so guns weren't being sold, and very few accessories were either. Mostly, people at booths were demonstrating new products and taking orders for products to either be shipped to individuals (in the case of accessories) or FFLs (in the case of any guns ordered).
The cops were mostly wandering around, watching the crowd with bored looks, or sneaking in to wander the show for free. I ran into several who were looking at things inside the show and even had a brief conversation with one of them about a type of sight we both thought was interesting but impractical.