Tuesday, February 14, 2012

Pastor's Daughter Shot Because of Negligent CCW Forgetting about the One in the Chamber



Moises Zambrana



The Tampa Bay Times reports on the tragedy.

The men took precautions. They walked away from the crowd in a recreation room at Grace Connection Church and into a closet. Zambrana removed the Ruger's magazine, the Sheriff's Office said, and started to explain the gun's safety features.

But he forgot about the round in the chamber.

Around 12:30 p.m., the gun accidentally went off, according to the Sheriff's Office, sending a bullet through the wall and into the head of Hannah Kelley, 20, — Bueller's girlfriend and daughter of the church's pastor, Tim Kelley. "It does appear this was a tragic accident," said Cecilia Barreda, a sheriff's spokeswoman.

How many times do they forget about "the one in the chamber?"  How can that happen, even.  I mean, think about it.  If you own a gun, you know how the magazine feeds rounds into the chamber.  How could you possibly EVER forget there could be one in there?  I find it totally baffling.

And here's the best part:

Zambrana, of Pinellas Park, has a concealed weapons permit. Records show he also is a licensed security officer. He did not return a call for comment.

No charges were filed.
What am I referring to as "the best part?" Well, I guess there are two. One, he was trained and had the CCW permit, nevertheless was careless and negligent enough to forget about the one in the chamber. And two, no charges were filed."

Florida continues to amaze.

What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.

Guns and Poker



In the poker shootout, each player gets seven shots from seven yards away. The paper target contains a full deck of cards. The five best cards pierced by bullets make up a five-card poker hand, and the best hand wins the small pot.
Sounds like fun for the whole family, huh?

What do you think? Please leave a comment.

Monday, February 13, 2012

The Right to Arms from the English Bill of Rights

That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law
The Bill of Rights, 1 Will & Mary Sess 2 c 2

As you can see this right is limited to protestants

The right to arms is also "suitable to their condition"--that is arms that were suitable to the class of holder. IN other words,the rich could own pistols and swords, while the peasantry would own pikes or longbows.

Additionally, this right is as allowed by law. In other words,the right could be limited by law. In the case of the longbow, it use was related to the military, as was also the case with the pike.

I should also add that Britain was the first society to institute Gun Control beginning with the Pistols Act 1903 and tighter controls coming under the Firearms Act of 1920.

I should also add that this relates to National Defence, not personal. the right of self-defence at common law has disliked the use of deadly force and has worked to discourage it. Blackstone points out in his commentaries (Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England, Book the Third, Chapter the First: Of the Redress of Private Wrongs by the Mere Act of Parties p.3 ):
In the English law particularly it is held an excuse for breaches of the peace, nay even for homicide itself: but care must be taken that the resistance does not exceed the bounds of mere defence and prevention; for then the defender would himself become an aggressor.
Thus excessive force can make one the aggressor. It is still common today for those who use excessive force to be prosecuted and convicted (e.g., Tony Martin and Munir Hussein).

That was how the law of self-defence was understood at the time the Constitution was adopted as well.

I am going to reiterate that the Fifth Auxiliary Right mentioned by Blackstone in his commentaries comes in his discussion of the English Bill of Rights, whereas self-defence is addressed in another section of the commentaries (Of the Redress of Private Wrongs by the Mere Act of Parties).

DO NOT CONFUSE THE TWO

So, the right which "pre-existed" the Second Amendment was a very limited one--not the one promoted by the believers in "gun rights".

This was a well known fact at the time of the adoption of the US Constitution.

St. George Tucker wrote this regarding the English Bill of Rights in his 1803 edition of Blackstone’s Commentaries:

In England, the people have been disarmed, generally, under the specious pretext of preserving the game: a never failing lure to bring over the landed aristocracy to support any measure, under that mask, though calculated for very different purposes. True it is, their bill of rights seems at first view to counteract this policy: but the right of bearing arms is confined to protestants, and the words suitable to their condition and degree, have been interpreted to authorise the prohibition of keeping a gun or other engine for the destruction of game, to any farmer, or inferior tradesman, or other person not qualified to kill game. So that not one man in five hundred can keep a gun in his house without being subject to a penalty.

Update on the Laptop Gun Nut Bad Dad, and visits by the Cops and Social Services

No surprise, per the article below, experts appear to see the incident far more my way than the gun nut's way.

We have a supposed set of positive comments from the daughter, but I am skeptical of those, since they come from a dad who seems less than scrupulous in his willingness to coerce conduct from his dependent family members.  I'm also a bit less willing to believe that either the cops or social services were as encouraging of this technique for abusive discipline, given the guidelines and legal definitions of abuse in the family court system under which they have to operate.

But it doesn't surprise me that this occurred in a 'Southron' red-neck state with poor education, and reactionary political and social attitudes.  Firearms and violence have no proper place in discipline or family dynamics.  This is entirely about coercion, threats, and control, and nothing whatsoever to do with the much-vaunted claims that y'all only want guns for recreation and self-defense against armed intruders.  This puts bullshit to all of those claims about your desire to have firearms only for positive and constructive or defensive use.

Here is the update, from MSNBC.com:
Laptop-shooting dad, after 21 million views, says he'd do it over again

Captain Beefheart Festival 2011-2012 - 4th Night of the Living Van Vliet

Here's the explanation of the origin and the dates.

Thanks to Microdot for the title of the Festival.

Zen Comix has joined the festivities.



Gimme that harp boy
Ain't no fat man's toy

You hear what he is saying
You hear he's saying today
harp cry harp smiling
Shiny moon white note
Give me room
Ain't no time to Rock no boat gimme room

Harp sing time and playin ohm....
(Cocle-doodle-doo)

Gimme harp this harp harp this harp bite
harp this harp kiss harp money
Gimme that harp boy don't just stand around
Gon' blow pure joy -girl you wear this crown

Gimme that harp boy gimme that harp girl
Gimme that harp girl gimme that harp boy
Harp string harp ring
harp toke harp smoke
Harp float harp broke

If it's all about private firarms outside of the militia context, then why are they saying these things?

People haven't read any of the serious material material on US Military history which is what the real root of the Second Amendment is if they are going to assert that it has nothing to do with the militia or militia service.

Otherwise, why is there all the talk about militias, standing armies, religious exemption, compelling military service and so on?

As LegalEagle pointed out the Madison Resolution, June 8, 1789.
Resolved, that the following amendments ought to be proposed by Congress to the legislatures of the states, to become, if ratified by three fourths thereof, part of the constitution of the United States... The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person...
For more of the debates where they talk a lot about this stuff, but rarely mention private arms see:
http://constitution.org/mil/militia_debate_1789.htm
Virginia — SEVENTEENTH, That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well regulated Militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free State. That standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the Community will admit; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to and governed by the Civil power. EIGHTEENTH, That no Soldier in time of peace ought to be quartered in any house without the consent of the owner, and in time of war in such manner only as the laws direct. NINETEENTH, That any person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms ought to be exempted upon payment of an equivalent to employ another to bear arms in his stead... (Amendments proposed to the body of the Constitution).... NINTH, that no standing army or regular troops shall be raised or kept up in time of peace, without the consent of two thirds of the members present in both houses. TENTH, That no soldier shall be inlisted for any longer term than four years, except in time of war, and then for no longer term than the continuance of the war. ELEVENTH, That each State respectively shall have the power to provide for organizing, arming and disciplining it's own Militia, whensoever Congress shall omit or neglect to provide for the same. That the Militia shall not be subject to Martial Law, except when in actual service in time of war, invasion, or rebellion; and when not in the actual service of the United States, shall be subject only to such fines, penalties and punishments as shall be directed or inflicted by the laws of its own State.
New York — That the People have a right to keep and bear Arms; that a well regulated Militia, including the body of the People capable of bearing Arms, is the proper, natural and safe defence of a free State; that the Militia should not be subject to Martial Law, except in time of War Rebellion or Insurrection. That standing Armies in time of Peace are dangerous to Liberty, and ought not to be kept up, except in Cases of necessity; and that at all times, the Military should be under strict Subordination to the Civil Power. That in time of Peace no Soldier ought to be quartered in any House without the consent of the Owner, and in time of War only by the civil Magistrate in such manner as the Laws may direct...that the Militia of any State shall not be compelled to serve without the limits of the State for a longer term than six weeks, without the Consent of the Legislature thereof.
ADDITIONAL ARTICLES OF AMENDMENT; September 8, 1789
That no standing army or regular troops shall be raised or kept up in time of peace, without the consent of two thirds of the members present in both houses. That no soldier shall be enlisted for any longer term than four years, except in time of war, and then for no longer term than the continuance of the war. That each State respectively shall have the power to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining its own militia, whensoever Congress shall omit or neglect to provide for the same. That the militia shall not be subject to martial law, except when in actual service in time or war, invasion or rebellion; and when not in the actual service of the United States, shall be subject only to such fines, penalties, and punishments as shall be directed or inflicted by the laws of its own State.
From DEBATE ON THE MILITIA AND RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR IN THE HOUSE (Senate debates were secret).

The Congressional Register, 17 August 1789
Mr. Gerry — This declaration of rights, I take it, is intended to secure the people against the mal-administration of the government; if we could suppose that in all cases the rights of the people would be attended to, the occasion for guards of this kind would be removed. Now, I am apprehensive, sir, that this clause would give an opportunity to the people in power to destroy the constitution itself. They can declare who are those religiously scrupulous, and prevent them from bearing arms. What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. Now it must be evident, that under this provision, together with their other powers, congress could take such measures with respect to a militia, as make a standing army necessary. Whenever government mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins. This was actually done by Great Britain at the commencement of the late revolution. They used every means in their power to prevent the establishment of an effective militia to the eastward. The assembly of Massachusetts, seeing the rapid progress that administration were making, to divest them of their inherent privileges, endeavored to counteract them by the organization of the militia, but they were always defeated by the influence of the crown.
Well, it's evident to everybody except LegalEagle45
Mr. Gerry — Replied, that he meant to make a motion, as he disapproved of the words as they stood. He then proceeded, No attempts that they made, were successful, until they engaged in the struggle which emancipated them at once from their thralldom. Now, if we give a discretionary power to exclude those from militia duty who have religious scruples, we may as well make no provision on this head; for this reason he wished the words to be altered so as to be confined to persons belonging to a religious sect, scrupulous of bearing arms.
Militia duty? I thought this was all about private arms of citizens.

Where was any mention of private arms in those quotes? If you read the actual debates, where are the mentions of private arms?

Compulsion to Serve? Militia duty? what does that have to do with owning guns for non-militia purposes?

Were these people speed freaks just babbling nonsense?

Just wait:
On August 24, 1789, a House Resolution and Articles of Amendments were passed and sent to the Senate. The Amendment then read: "Article the Fifth. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the People, being the best security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person."

On September 4, 1789, the Senate disapproved a motion to insert at the end, "that standing armies, in time of peace, being dangerous to Liberty, should be avoided as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by the civil Power. That no standing army or regular troops shall be raised in time of peace, without the consent of two thirds of the Members present in both Houses, and that no soldier shall be inlisted for any longer term than the continuance of the war."
On August 17, a motion by Gerry to insert "trained to arms" at this point failed for want of a second.

Oh here's something that mentions personal uses:
7. That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and their own state, or the United States, or for the purpose of killing game; and no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up: and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to and be governed by the civil powers.
But if this is about private ownership of firearms, why say "standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up: and that the military shall be kept under strict subordination to and be governed by the civil powers".

And they also point out that people can be disarmed "for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individual"

All this just doesn't fit with the view of reality that LegalEagle45 wants me to buy into.

WHY GUN NUTS ARE DANGEROUS -
Just One More Example

Here is just one more instance of WHY it is we don't believe you when you insist you are safe.  I would call your attention to the fact that he had a CCW permit!

Here is one more example of why we don't want you around us, armed and a danger to us, even when you don't understand or believe or recognize that you are such a danger.  Here is WHY we don't want people carrying, either open or concealed, without a serious and compelling NEED to do so, and why we don't want your guns in church, school, the post office, or any other public places.

You lot REFUSE to recognize or acknowledge just how many incidents like this occur, including being shot by your own DOGS while out hunting, and shooting yourselves. 

It is not surprising that this occurred in Florida.

From MSNBC.com and the news services:

'Tragic accident': Pastor's daughter shot at Fla. church

Worshipper accidentally fires gun through wall

msnbc.com staff and news service reports
updated 2/13/2012 3:22:22 AM ET 2012-02-13T08:22:22
You bozos are dangerous. WE have a right not to have our safety threatened by you and your firearms.YOU have no natural right, no god-given right, no human right to those firearms, or to endanger us on the pretext of self-defense.

A pastor's daughter was accidentally shot in the head at a church in St. Petersburg, police said.
The Pinellas County Sheriff's Office was called to the Grace Connection Church at about 12:24 p.m. Sunday.
Investigators told The Associated Press that Moises Zambrana was showing his gun in a small closet to another church member interested in buying a firearm. Zambrana reportedly took out the magazine of the Reuger 9mm weapon but did not know there was a bullet in the chamber.
'We're all praying for her' The gun went off and fired through a wall, striking 20-year-old Hannah Kelley. She was transported to Bayfront Medical Center to undergo surgery and remained in critical condition late Sunday.
WTSP quoted church member Tony Diehl as saying that there was "a big level of concern" for Kelley.
"We're all praying for her and, right now, I guess that's the best we can do," Diehl added.
Deputies said Zambrana has a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
No charges have been filed.
Sheriff's office spokeswoman Cecilia Barreda told Tampa Bay Online that the incident appeared to be a "tragic accident."
The Associated Press and msnbc.com staff contributed to this report.