Florida popcorn shooting: Are concealed guns about self-defense or power?

You may be aware that those old "may issue" concealed carry laws that gave the issuing authority some discretion had been proposed by the Handgun Owners Association and NRA in the 1920s and 1930s.  We had the statement of Then-NRA President Karl T. Frederick:

MR. FREDERICK: ... "I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I seldom carry one. ... I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses"

Yet, for some reason (most likely it is the best way to get people to act against their interest), the NRA now proposes and advocates the "general promiscuous toting of guns".

The Christian Science Monitor has a piece with the same title I used here that points out that this has been a bad decision:

But in a country in which the number of permits to carry concealed weapons has skyrocketed, Oulson’s death has also become one more piece of evidence of what some see as the sinister and frightening side of expanded gun rights. In that view, the act of carrying a hidden gun in public is as much about wielding power over fellow citizens as self-defense.
“There are a lot of people dead today who would be alive but for [a gun carrier] who gets angry and accelerates an argument to a homicide,” says Kristen Rand, legislative director at the Violence Policy Center in Washington. “It’s very clear that carrying a concealed gun creates a mindset among some people that, ‘I’ve got a gun, the state sanctions it, therefore I have a right to use it’ ” in public.

There is something called the weapon effect, which is where the presence of a weapon will tend to cause the situation to become more violent.  The CSM mentions this:

But others see a more disturbing pattern highlighted by the popcorn shooting. The Violence Policy Center has used press accounts and other sources to compile a database of deaths attributed to non-self-defense instances where concealed-carry permit holders fired their weapons. Since 2007, 555 people have been killed in 33 states in such instances.

“With alarming regularity, individuals licensed to carry concealed weapons instigate fatal shootings that have nothing to do with self-defense,” the Violence Policy Center's Ms. Rand said in a statement commenting on the Florida shooting.

I know people will come up with the usual "guns save lives " bullshit.  Bullshit since they have yet to come up with a serious study that backs that up. On the other hand, there are some people who are honest in this debate.

Meanwhile, some permit holders acknowledge that carrying a gun around in public can tweak a person’s decision matrix in the face of potential trouble, primarily by imparting to the gun-carrier a greater sense of responsibility and urgency in avoiding conflict.

That’s because of an understanding among responsible gun owners that, as one concealed carrier told the Monitor, “if it gets ugly, you know it can get ugly on an amazing scale.”

I am sure that when more serious research is undertaken it will reinforce the fact that relaxing the gun laws is a bad idea which has been driven by ideologues.  Remember that the studies were coming out that showed guns were a detriment when the funding for them was cut.

Ideologues driven by science fiction and the belief that "an armed society is a polite society"

Persian Gulf War Vet Wins Battle with Sheriff over Ohio CCW License

“If I’m out on the street with a weapon the public is safer. I’m a trained expert,” Redmon said. (Photo credit: The Lima News)

Guns dot com

James Redmon sued Van Wert County Sheriff Thomas Riggenbach after he denied Redmon a license based on a post-traumatic stress disorder diagnosis from more than six years ago as well as felony charges, which were later dropped.

Redmon accused Riggenbach of abusing his power and misinterpreted the law by denying him his license, which he claims he had no legitimate reasons for doing so.

“The sheriff overstepped his authority and broke the law. I tried twice to tell him before filing the lawsuit and he treated me as if I were not worth of speaking to him and blew me off,” Redmon said.

Had Redmon not won the case, he said would have simply continued to carry openly, as is legal in the state of Ohio and as he has done for the past 14 years.

One of the felony charges was when "Redmon had warned a drug dealer to stay away from one of his friends who was trying to get clean. When the drug dealer didn’t heed his warnings, Redmon kicked in his door and assaulted him. "

The article didn't provide details of the other felony charge that was dropped or pleaded down.

This is exactly why "may issue" is a good thing.  Local law enforcement can make informed decisions based on all the information they have and not just rubber stamp those applications that meet rigid guidelines.

Too bad the judge didn't see it that way, because in spite of what the gun nut said about himself, the public is not safer with guys like him carrying guns.

The other thing Ohio needs to do is abolish open carry.  That way dangerous guys like Redmon who begin every sentence with "I'm a combat veteran," won't be able to carry guns at all.

"“I was a combat vet who beat up a drug dealer trying to save someone’s life,” he said.  Sounds like Moonshine and all the other losers who joined the military because there were no jobs at home and never stopped telling us about their patriotism and heroism.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.

Colorado Says Concealed Carry is not Protected by the Second Amendment

Find Law

Owning a gun is a right protected by the Second Amendment, but it doesn’t include the right to a concealed carry permit, according to a federal court.

The case started with a Washington man, Gray Peterson, who was denied a concealed carry permit in Colorado. The state only issues those permits to certain people, a policy that Peterson claimed violated his Second Amendment rights.

His complaint was initially dismissed by a federal district court judge and Peterson appealed the decision. But with Friday’s decision, it looks like he was unsuccessful.

Peterson has a concealed carry permit in his home state of Washington and in Florida, according to The Associated Press. He wanted one for Colorado since he travels to Denver often.

But the state of Colorado doesn’t honor concealed carry permits from Washington. The reason? Washington won’t honor Colorado permits.

Peterson also can’t get a Colorado concealed carry permit because he isn’t a state citizen.
Many states follow that pattern of only honoring permits from states that return the favor. But Peterson said it was more than a political decision.

He claimed it was a violation of his rights. Unfortunately for him, the three-judge panel didn’t agree.

Owning a gun is a right protected by the Second Amendment, but it doesn’t include the right to a concealed carry permit, according to a federal court.
The case started with a Washington man, Gray Peterson, who was denied a concealed carry permit in Colorado. The state only issues those permits to certain people, a policy that Peterson claimed violated his Second Amendment rights.
His complaint was initially dismissed by a federal district court judge and Peterson appealed the decision. But with Friday’s decision, it looks like he was unsuccessful.

Peterson has a concealed carry permit in his home state of Washington and in Florida, according to The Associated Press. He wanted one for Colorado since he travels to Denver often.
But the state of Colorado doesn’t honor concealed carry permits from Washington. The reason? Washington won’t honor Colorado permits.
Peterson also can’t get a Colorado concealed carry permit because he isn’t a state citizen.
Many states follow that pattern of only honoring permits from states that return the favor. But Peterson said it was more than a political decision.
He claimed it was a violation of his rights. Unfortunately for him, the three-judge panel didn’t agree.

Why Do People Decide to Carry Concealed?

Local news reports on the concealed-carry victory in Illinois.

Twenty years ago, Bob Zimmerman ran into a panhandler who wouldn't take "no" for an answer.
The Germantown Hills resident was at a rest stop in Florida, and the man wanted money. 

Things didn't get physical, Zimmerman said, but if he hadn't gotten into his truck as quickly as he did, he's sure there would have been a fight.

From that point on, Zimmerman knew he needed a gun.

Does anyone see the problem with that rationale? If anything the incident in Florida proved that a gun is not necessary. All the fear-driven what-if scenarios are not justification for carrying a gun. They're just fear-driven what-if scenarios.

Men who feel intimidated by their own fantasies, sometimes make the mistake of thinking a gun will supply the answer.  They're wrong, as we've seen earlier today, and yesterday, and meantime gun-rights fanatics are calling for even fewer restrictions.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.

PA Concealed Carry Permit Holder Loses Gun to Armed Robber

Local news reports

A York man reported to city police this weekend that he had been robbed at gunpoint -- and that the thief made off with the his gun.

Jose A. Diaz-Dechoudens, of the 600 block of East Princess Street, told police the crime happened early Sunday morning, according to the York City Police log. 

The incident took place in the 700 block of East Princess Street, Diaz-Dechoudens said, and a pistol was taken. No other details were available.

I'd laugh if it weren't so sad. I don't suppose this is the only time something like this has happened. Most guys would be too embarrassed to report it.  What could the police do anyway?

This is just another example of how counterproductive and useless concealed carry is.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.

Lawful Florida Gun Owner Commits Murder

Local news reports

A Brevard County man remained in jail late Tuesday, accused of shooting a teenager dead in an argument over loud music.

Michael David Dunn, 45, and his girlfriend were in Jacksonville Friday for Dunn's son's wedding when they stopped at a convenience store, Jacksonville sheriff's Lt. Rob Schoonover said.

Jordan Russell Davis, 17, and several other teenagers were sitting in a sport utility vehicle in the parking lot when Dunn pulled up next to them in a car and asked them to turn down their music, Schoonover said.

Jordan and Dunn exchanged words, and Dunn pulled a gun and shot eight or nine times, striking Jordan twice, Schoonover said. Jordan was sitting in the back seat. No one else was hurt. Dunn's attorney Monday said her client acted responsibly and in self-defense. She did not elaborate.

Dunn and his girlfriend took off afterward, and witnesses jotted down their tag number, deputies said.

Dunn, a gun collector, was arrested Saturday at his home in Satellite Beach on charges of murder and attempted murder. He was being held without bail.

I'm guessin' this guy was not only a lawful gun owner, but that he had a concealed carry permit. They're easy enough to pick up in Florida, why wouldn't he?   Gun owners in Pennsylvania are getting them through the mail, for crying out loud. The interesting thing is no one is checking and keeping track of how many concealed carry permit holders are actually turning out to be unfit.

What's your opinion?  I think he should try for the "stand your ground" defense.  I mean, an older white guy arguing with a car full of black teenagers, who wouldn't feel threatened?

What do you think?  Please leave a comment.

Concealed Carry Safety

My response to Robert's latest podcast.

Robert, You can't remember one single incident of a concealed carry causing collateral damage. I suppose, in order to maintain some integrity with that remarkable statement, you have to narrow down the parameters.

You have to exclude guys like this who drop their guns causing negligent discharges. And you'd have to overlook all the ones like this guy who stupidly leave their guns laying around or the ones who shoot themselves by "accident." I guess they don't count.

And what about all those who shoot at animals and hit people instead, like this skunk shooter. And let's not forget the ones who become out and out murderers.

No, you're absolutely right. I can't recall a single incident like the Empire State shooting in which civilians acted as bad a cops often do. One possible explanation could be that in spite of the ridiculous numbers you guys put on DGU shootings, they are fairly rare, whereas the cops are out there doing their job every day. That could have something to do with it.

The Benefits of Concealed Carry

Accidental Shooting in Washington Hair Salon - Woman Critical

Seattle PI reports

Responders said the incident took place at Headlines Salon, but police did not immediately have additional details.

Responders said the woman had a .45 caliber gun and shot herself in the chest. The bullet exited by her mouth and she was not responsive when medics found her. She was rushed to Harborview Medical Center with her spouse, medics said.

Police said it was not clear what happened before the shooting, but it was reported as accidental.

I'm betting this woman had a concealed carry permit. Why else would she have had a gun with her in the hair salon?

One thing for sure, if the news reporters don't pick up on it, no one is checking.  That suits the pro-gun folks just fine because they can continue to cite those false statistics that seem to indicate how safe and responsible permit holders are.

The truth is concealed carry permit holders are no safer than other gun owners, and everyone knows that leaves something to be desired.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.

Utah Lawful Gun Owner and Possible Concealed Carry Permit Holder Fires Shots in the Air

Local news reports

A Uintah County man fired multiple shots during a weekend party in an effort to drive off a group of party crashers, according to sheriff's deputies.

Deputies responded to a house in the area and found a large party under way. They questioned people in the house and learned that several individuals at the party had not been invited and had been told to leave by the homeowner, Donny Mendoza.


"After numerous attempts to get these people to leave, Mendoza retrieved a pistol and fired multiple shots in the air as intimidation," Cheshire said.  

Deputies estimate there were 30 people inside the house and on the property at the time the shots were fired. Alcohol use was a factor in the incident, Cheshire said.

Mendoza, 29, was arrested and booked into the Uintah County Jail for investigation of multiple weapons violations.  

We can presume this guy was a lawful gun owner right up until the time he did this reckless and stupid behavior. But, did he have a concealed carry permit?  No one knows because it has nothing to do with anything. 

You see, committing a crime with a gun counts regardless of whether you have a permit to carry concealed or not. That's why they don't check and that's why whenever the pro-gun crowd tell us how statistically safe the concealed carry permit holders are it's a lie.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.

Iowa Concealed Carry Permits Surge - Criminal Shootings Surge Too

Local news reports

It's been nearly two years since Iowa became a "shall issue" concealed weapons state. As a "shall issue" state, county sheriffs can only deny concealed weapons permits for specific reasons like alcoholism, mental illness or past felony convictions. 

Since then, concealed weapons permits have surged. According to the Iowa Department of Public Safety, in 2010, 40,747 Iowans got permits to carry a gun. Last year, the first year under shall issue, that number skyrocketed to 102,729 Iowans. 

Cedar Rapids police statistics show another alarming change; a jump in gun incidents. In 2011, there were a dozen gun-related police reports in Cedar Rapids. And so far this year, there have been 52 shootings including shot-up buildings, suicides and murders. 

 But, a records search shows not one of the known offenders had a gun permit. It’s no surprise to gun shop owner Ernie Traugh. “The violence isn't coming from the ppl with permits, we don't have to worry about that,” said Cedar Valley Outfitters Owner Ernie Traugh.

That's even a bigger lie than we usually hear about the concealed carry guys being safe. It's funny how the pro-gun crowd will suspend all common sense and reason in order to claim belief in the most absurd statistics.

I cannot believe that the increase in concealed carry permits has had only an indirect affect on the increase in criminal gun incidents. I would imagine it's more direct. An indirect affect might be having their guns stolen or transferring their guns to unfit people without doing background checks.  A direct affect would be when one of the concealed carry holders actually does something wrong.

To claim that not one single person committed a gun crime is absurd. The "records search" is total nonsense, for one reason, because no one is checking. When someone kills himself or another, or commits some other gun crime, no one is checking if he has a concealed carry permit unless it comes up by accident and makes the news.  So, the truth is, we have no idea how many of these licensed gun owners are becoming criminals.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.

More on the Inglewood Shooting Rampage

The Los Angeles Times reports further to Jadegold's post.

The body of the suspect in a Saturday morning rampage in which five members of an Inglewood family were shot — two fatally — was believed to be found in the ashes of his home, wearing body armor, clutching a revolver and bearing a gunshot wound to the head, police said Sunday.

A corpse was discovered among the remains of a torched house on West 99th Street inhabited by Desmond John Moses, a 55-year-old licensed security guard and the registered owner of the .38-caliber handgun. A positive identification of the body is expected in the coming days.

I suppose this is another one of those exceedingly rare examples of a lawful gun owner going bad. That's one of the weakest arguments the gun-rights fanatics have, that "very few" lawful gun owners commit crimes with their weapons. They keep saying almost all (I've seen 99% quoted) gun crime is done by drug dealers and gang members.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.

Ohio Concealed Carry Permit Holder Drops Gun Gets Shot in Ankle

Local news reports

Raymond S. Bodie, the owner of Bodie Electric, was carrying the firearm on top of a stack of papers when it slipped off, fell to the ground and discharged one round, said Fostoria police Captain Patrick Brooks.

The bullet went through Bodie's ankle and his injuries were not life-threatening, Brooks said. Although police responded to the business after receiving a report of the accident, Bodie was transported privately to ProMedica Fostoria Community Hospital before officers arrived at the scene.

Bodie has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, Brooks said.

How can that happen? First of all the gun defenders always tell us modern guns don't do that. Secondly, they tell us concealed carry guys are safer than your average gun owner.

What gives?

Please leave a comment.

Accidental Shooting of Baby in Concealed Carry Home

Local news reports

The child’s mother, Deshana Lisenbee, 24, who gave a 215 Terminal Road, Apt. B, address, was booked Saturday night into Montgomery County Jail and charged with aggravated child abuse. She was released on $5,000 bond.

A 1-year-old accidentally shot himself in the hand Saturday afternoon. 

The child lives in a Terminal Road apartment with a man and a woman who have gun carry permits, said Clarksville Police spokesman Officer Jim Knoll. He said he’s not sure who is the parent of the boy.

It makes you wonder how low a standard they have for issuing those concealed carry permits. It makes you wonder what the hell the pro-gun guys are talking about when they keep saying how safe these people are.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.

Homeland Security Officer with Concealed Carry Permit Stopped at Albuquerque Airport

Local news reports


It didn't say she was arrested, so I'm guessin' that flimsy charge will be dropped or plea-bargained away.

I believe it when these people say they just forgot, but what does that say about their responsibility when it comes to safely managing their firearms.

Forget once, lose your right to own guns, that's what I say.

Virginia's Disgraceful Abuse of the System by Exporting Concealed Carry Permits

The Seattle Times reports

Virginia is issuing a rising number of concealed-carry gun permits to people who live in other states in a trend that may be helped along by online gun classes.

The commercial courses allow applicants to seek a permit from Virginia that is valid in their state, but without having to meet tougher requirements their home states may impose, such as firing a gun with an instructor.

Virginia State Police issued 1,632 concealed-carry permits to nonresidents through the first half of 2012, topping the previous year's total of 1,321 nonresident permits. There was no corresponding increase in demand for resident permits, with just under half the previous year's number reached by mid-2012.

Their home states may impose more stringent requirements, he tells prospects, but they can get a Virginia permit simply by paying $39.99, reading five chapters about firearms and correctly answering 15 of 20 true-or-false questions on a quiz. The customer receives a certificate to be mailed along with other application materials to the Virginia State Police. After passing a criminal background check, the applicant receives a permit to carry a concealed weapon in his or her home state and 26 others that have reciprocity agreements with Virginia.

Is that the funniest thing you're ever heard, or what? These responsible citizens can get the concealed carry permit they've always wanted "without having to meet tougher requirements their home states may impose, such as firing a gun with an instructor."

These gun-rights fanatics are more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

To me, this type of reciprocity is a disgraceful abuse of the system. It should be stopped immediately.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.

Ohio Concealed Carry Permit Holder Shoots Himself by Accident - No Charges

Local news reports

A Clinton County man suffered a gunshot wound Monday night to his right leg when the handgun he was using to target practice allegedly discharged as he was replacing it in its holster.

The injured man, Terry C. Stephens, 53, told the Clinton County Sheriff’s Office he had been target practicing at a private shooting range when he accidentally shot himself in the leg.

“He stated that he had accidentally shot himself in the right leg while attempting to re-holster his .38 caliber handgun,” said Deputy Timothy Smith of the sheriff’s office.

“The EMS (emergency medical squad) on scene stated that the bullet did not go through his leg but had tore a significant chunk of flesh from his leg,” Smith said.

Stephens has a concealed carry permit and also had permission to target shoot on Beam’s property, according to the sheriff’s office which is continuing the investigation as an accidental gunshot.

You see, this is the way you do it. Admit your mistake, call it what it is even when the news reporters try to soft-sell it as a handgun having "allegedly discharged" all by itself. 

When you do that and don't lie to the police, you don't even get a slap on the wrist.  Of course, you should lose (originally "love") your right to own and use guns, but by playing your cards right, you can keep your precious guns and your precious CCW permit and go on your merry way.

What's your opinion?  Is this acceptable?  Is there really any way something like this can be excused?

Negligent Discharge by a Judge who Approved his own CCW Permit

The New York Times reports

On second thought, Judge Vincent A. Sgueglia admitted to state judicial officials, the landmark courthouse in Owego, N.Y., was probably not the best place to repair a revolver with a faulty firing mechanism. 

That was what he was doing, alone in his chambers on the first floor of the 140-year-old courthouse, during a recess on the morning of Jan. 21, 2010. 

The gun, a .38-caliber Smith & Wesson that he said he did not realize was loaded, went off. The bullet dug into a wall. No one was injured.

I don't believe the supposed "faulty firing mechanism" has anything to do with it. Nor does the fact that he had the gun pointed in a safe direction, which the article pointed out.

HE DIDN'T KNOW THE GUN WAS LOADED. He put his finger on the trigger.  He negligently fired the gun. 

Inexcusable behavior for a man with a concealed carry permit, which he himself authorized. 

What's your opinion?  Should someone like that lose his right to own guns?

Please leave a comment.

Hard Road Cafe Bartender Shot Over Bill

Local news reports

Police said that a Robin Rocky was shot on Aug. 18 after two men became "enraged" over their $75 bar tab.

According to police, Rocky, 39, was serving as a bartender at the Hard Road Café, located at 1880 Hard Road, around 2 a.m. when glasses were thrown at her and she was punched.

When Rocky walked outside the bar to call 911, one of the men fired several shots at her, striking her once in the leg.

Police arrested George Anthony Gulledge, who was accused of firing shots at Rocky, early Sunday morning. Gulledge, 38, was charged with felonious assault.

I suppose this guy was a lawful gun owner, otherwise there would have been charges about illegal possession of the gun. But, I wonder if anyone checked to see if he had a concealed carry permit? 

It seems to me that owning a gun, carrying one for protection, and using it to settle disputes too often go together. These are problems caused by so-called legitimate gun owners.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.

Arming the Good Guys is the Answer - Not

New York Times op-ed by Gail Collins

We had a shooting near the Empire State Building. An aggrieved ex-employee of an apparel company killed his former co-worker, and was himself killed by police. Except for the famous-landmark location, it was not actually a very big story. Remember the mass shooting at the lumberyard in North Carolina earlier this year, or the one last October at the California cement plant? No? Neither does anybody else except the grieving families. 

Nine passers-by were also wounded, and it seems almost certain that some or all were accidentally hit by the police. This isn’t surprising; it’s only in movies that people are good shots during a violent encounter. In 2008, Al Baker reported in The Times that the accuracy rate for New York City officers firing in the line of duty was 34 percent. 

And these are people trained for this kind of crisis. The moral is that if a lunatic starts shooting, you will not be made safer if your fellow average citizens are carrying concealed weapons.

The pro-gun crowd will quickly point out how much better they are than the cops at hitting their targets. SOME of them are, for sure, but some cops are well-trained marksmen too.

The average gun owner is not better trained and better equipped to handle an emergency than the average law enforcement officer, in spite of what the tiny fringe element of extremists says.

Good guys carrying guns in public does not make us safer. The proof is in examples like Tucson, where the armed civilians DID NOT STOP IT, and in the most recent Empire State Building incident, in which the shooters made matters worse.  Both of those, interestingly, were not gun-free zones.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.