MR. FREDERICK: ... "I have never believed in the general practice of carrying weapons. I seldom carry one. ... I do not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses"Yet, for some reason (most likely it is the best way to get people to act against their interest), the NRA now proposes and advocates the "general promiscuous toting of guns".
The Christian Science Monitor has a piece with the same title I used here that points out that this has been a bad decision:
But in a country in which the number of permits to carry concealed weapons has skyrocketed, Oulson’s death has also become one more piece of evidence of what some see as the sinister and frightening side of expanded gun rights. In that view, the act of carrying a hidden gun in public is as much about wielding power over fellow citizens as self-defense.
“There are a lot of people dead today who would be alive but for [a gun carrier] who gets angry and accelerates an argument to a homicide,” says Kristen Rand, legislative director at the Violence Policy Center in Washington. “It’s very clear that carrying a concealed gun creates a mindset among some people that, ‘I’ve got a gun, the state sanctions it, therefore I have a right to use it’ ” in public.
There is something called the weapon effect, which is where the presence of a weapon will tend to cause the situation to become more violent. The CSM mentions this:
But others see a more disturbing pattern highlighted by the popcorn shooting. The Violence Policy Center has used press accounts and other sources to compile a database of deaths attributed to non-self-defense instances where concealed-carry permit holders fired their weapons. Since 2007, 555 people have been killed in 33 states in such instances.I know people will come up with the usual "guns save lives " bullshit. Bullshit since they have yet to come up with a serious study that backs that up. On the other hand, there are some people who are honest in this debate.
“With alarming regularity, individuals licensed to carry concealed weapons instigate fatal shootings that have nothing to do with self-defense,” the Violence Policy Center's Ms. Rand said in a statement commenting on the Florida shooting.
Meanwhile, some permit holders acknowledge that carrying a gun around in public can tweak a person’s decision matrix in the face of potential trouble, primarily by imparting to the gun-carrier a greater sense of responsibility and urgency in avoiding conflict.I am sure that when more serious research is undertaken it will reinforce the fact that relaxing the gun laws is a bad idea which has been driven by ideologues. Remember that the studies were coming out that showed guns were a detriment when the funding for them was cut.
That’s because of an understanding among responsible gun owners that, as one concealed carrier told the Monitor, “if it gets ugly, you know it can get ugly on an amazing scale.”
Ideologues driven by science fiction and the belief that "an armed society is a polite society"
"Since 2007, 555 people have been killed in 33 states in such instances"
ReplyDeleteLet us assume that statement is truthful and accurate: that means about 2 people (who legally carry concealed handguns) per year in each state commit murder with a handgun.
All murders are tragic of course. Be that as it may, 2 murders per year per state is an extraordinarily low number. And for all we know, those shooters would have carried concealed anyway even if it was illegal and still murdered someone. Or they might have murdered someone anyway with an alternate weapon. At any rate let us assume the worst and say those two murders happened because of legal concealed carry.
Now here is something we can sink our teeth into. There were about 12,000 murders in the U.S. last year. For simplicity let's say those are spread evenly across all 50 states which means there were about 240 murders in each state last year. According to the claim about legal concealed handgun carriers, they are responsible for about 2 of those 240 murders in each state. That's right. In the absolute worst case citizens who legally carry concealed handguns cause about 1% of all the murders annually.
The really interesting question is how many citizens who legally carry concealed were attacked and would have been murdered if they had not been armed? There really is no way to determine this. I can tell you this much. Few of the 240 annual murder victims in each state are armed when they are attacked and murdered. If all of them had been armed during their attack, I am sure that only a small fraction would have still been killed. And that is why we want legal concealed carry.
-- TruthBeTold
No, let's not take that as truthful and accurate. That figure is the tip of the iceberg, which I show on the blog continually.
DeleteWe have to consider that 555 number in comparison to the total number of people who carry legally. There are some 8,000,000 license holders and an unknown number of others in states that require no license. Those 555 cases represent a tiny percentage of people who carry legally, and that's taking the Violence Policy Center at their word. At least some of those cases were legitimate acts of self-defense.
DeleteMikeb, you frequently claim that the numbers are off, but you reject reports from state police agencies on the crime rate of license holders, and you assert without proof that no one checks for licenses, even though running a check on a suspect is standard proceducre. You have to provide more to convince anyone other than Laci.
Love the way you kill happy gun loons excuse death as being so meaningless, even one death. Just a number, no big deal. Let them die, you will do nothing to stop the killing including reasonable laws that will not infringe on your rights.
DeleteMike, the Violence Policy Center is a premier gun control organization and they are the ones who published that 555 number. So now you are telling us that one of the premier gun control organizations is publishing bogus data. It must be nice to just make stuff up when reality doesn't fit your agenda.
DeleteLet me know when you have actual reliable data that anyone can verify. Meanwhile, I will be legally carrying a handgun in public and won't harm anyone that hasn't viciously attacked me or my family. It's too bad that you are against families being able to protect themselves. You almost seem like an interesting person.
-- TruthBeTold
Anonymous,
DeleteI value life deeply because life is sacred. That is why I am armed. Unlike yourself who has willingly shirked your responsibility to protect yourself, your family, and your community from violent attackers, I actually have the means to protect the lives of my family and community if a criminal strikes.
It is horrifying to see that you not only fail to value your own life and the lives of your family, but you even despise the lives of your community to the point that you wish to force them to be unable to protect themselves.
Wow.
-- TruthBeTold
Anonymous,
DeleteOne more thing. You wrote, "... you will do nothing to stop the killing including reasonable laws that will not infringe on your rights."
Please explain how words on a piece of paper (laws) will stop violent criminals from attacking citizens ... the violent criminals who currently violate words on paper (such as assault and murder laws). Are suggesting that somehow more words on paper are going to work this time?
-- TruthBeTold
"Since 2007, 555 people have been killed in 33 states in such instances."
DeleteI went to the VPC's site and did a search for the people killed in Minnesota. One was a matter of improper storage, so a permit really had no bearing, two were suicides, and one was included, with no information because a homicide was listed in the state's listing of crime committed by permit holders, but they either couldn't, or didn't bother to get any details. Sort of proves that police do check.
So the VPC seems to have a liberal criteria in regards to this happening. When they do this, it hurts their credibility more than having the higher numbers helps.
No explination necessary since you lie and are full of shit. How would you know what I do for my family? You don't even know if I have a family. So take your bullshit and believe you are correct. You and Greg make a great pair of asshole criminal cowardly liars.
DeleteAnonymous,
DeleteI only see two possibilities. Either:
(1) You actually DO carry a firearm to protect yourself and your family but you do NOT want other people to carry firearms to protect themselves and their families.
-- or --
(2) You do NOT carry a firearm to protect yourself nor your family and you do NOT want other people to carry firearms to protect themselves and their families.
Either possibility -- rejecting the means to protect your family or preventing others from protecting their families -- paints you in an ugly light. Which is it?
-- TruthBeTold
Third possibility, like the other lying criminal cowards on this site you know nothing and are full of shit. And thanks for proving that.
DeleteAnonymous,
DeletePlease enlighten us:
(1) Do you carry a firearm to protect yourself and your family?
(2) Do you support all other citizens (not criminals) carrying a firearm to protect themselves and their families?
-- TruthBeTold
Laughable
DeleteLike I'm going to tell a raving lying lunatic if and when I carry. HA HA HA HA
Just asking the question shows what an idiot you are. HA HA HA HA HA
Anonymous,
DeleteYou refuse to answer the questions because they illustrate how reprehensible you are. Either you support people's right to defend themselves or you support violent criminals. But you don't want to answer because that reveals that you side with violent criminals, and you know that most people despise anyone like yourself that sides with violent criminals.
-- TruthBeTold
Anonymous,
DeleteYou have yet to explain how words on a piece of paper (a law) will stop a violent criminal from brutally attacking someone, regardless of what weapon that violent criminal chooses to use for their attack.
That's because you know that words on a piece of paper do nothing to stop a violent criminal from brutally attacking a citizen. You just cannot bring yourself to admit it because that would show that you side with violent criminals.
-- TruthBeTold
Amazing! You think your stupidity and lying demand a serious response. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
DeletePeople like you and the site criminal lying coward are the one who do not care about innocent death and prove it every time you open your shit lying mouth.
As a society, we must come to understand and accept that some lives (due to their position in, or contribution to society) are worth defending in a manner which cannot be allowed with respect to the general population.
DeleteFor pragmatic, and security objectives, certain officers of the state, or certain "person(s)" or entities acting on behalf thereof merit the the physical protection of the gun, as opposed to the protection of law afforded to society by the state and the collective physical presence of law enforcement.
And so we have the return of E.N. in the guise of Lucy4, once more claiming that some animals are more equal than others. You're still wrong, E.N.
DeleteAh, the old some animals are more equal than others argument.....
DeleteWithout lions, the gazelles would breed out of control. They would starve themselves to death in a few short generations, unable and unwilling to control their baser urges. The population would progress in a series of bursts and dieoffs, with mass starvation punctuating the scene. Life would not progress. Therefore, it is painfully obvious to the thinking man that, in terms of the greater good of the population, a few bloody but swift deaths are preferable to the mass starvation and stagnation of the ecosystem. Likewise, tyranny, despotism, and cruelty are intrinsic parts- and indeed, necessary- for the meager happiness the average person can attain. They are two sides of the same coin, to put it plainly- without the existence of one, achieving the other becomes impossible.
DeleteThe rock envys the oak that grows in the sun,
Deletethe oak envys the animal that runs in the forest,
the animal envys the eagle that soars among the clouds,
and man sits among them, aware of his faults and wondering why he is here.
Know your place. Envy is the mark of futility.
Lucy 4 or E.N. or whatever your name is,
DeleteYour giant blunder is thinking that mankind cannot exist without "help" from tyrants and elitists who you warmly defined in your previous comment as, "some lives (due to their position in, or contribution to society)"
But way, way, WAY more disturbing is your next comment advocating for tyrants to cull the human herd. And you wonder why that herd of humans wants to be armed?
You know what is so sad about such a mindset? One of those "worthless" masses that you advocate culling could be the next Jonas Salk who would have cured Alzheimer's disease ... or the next Thomas Edison who would have invented the next great device or technology.
I cannot even imagine all of the solutions to mankind's problems that never materialized because the person who would have presented the solution was one of the countless 100s of millions of people who tyrants have murdered over the last 150 years. At least we know that you are pleased with that result because the continued existence of those problems is justification to continue the cycle of culling the human race.
-- TruthBeTold
Anonymous,
DeleteTake note of Lucy 4's comments. At best he wants criminals to cull (kill off millions) of us. At worst, he wants governments to cull millions of us. Even more disturbing, many people share his position -- including people worth billions of dollars and people in governments. If people like him are able to act on their goal, it will be people like myself with firearms trying to stop them. Take note that your harsh words, foul language, insults, and baseless accusations will do nothing to stop tyrants.
-- TruthBeTold
You goal is to take arms against the government. Drown government in a bathtub, kill it. For no reason than you object to the rules you have to live under, that have been decided by the majority through a democratic process. That's criminal thinking. Just leave the country and start you own country where you can live under Greg's, TS's, and SS's belief that revenge is justice and it's ok to beat people up. The Nazis had the same thinking. You refuse democratic rule, for your rules based on that kind of criminal thinking.
DeleteMorality is the luxury of the victor.
DeleteI have worked a lifetime to ensure victory by any means necessary. We won't stop with empire just beyond our grasp.
Civilization cannot exist beyond the reins of despotism. Otherwise it devolves into the despotism of nature. We simply seek to organize the natural order, to create a more perfect existence for humanity, with respect to the parties of interest in the rule and provision for the masses.
And to answer the question in the headline, concealed guns are about self-defense.
ReplyDelete-- TruthBeTold
"Since 2007, 555 people have been killed in 33 states in such instances."
ReplyDeleteAnother interesting fact, if you do a search of suicide on the VPC's list, you'll discover that 132 of those "concealed carry killers" victims were themselves. And I only counted the ones that weren't murder-suicides.
Let's see, the VPC has managed to inflate their numbers by 25% just by including something that in in most states isn't even illegal. And their were seven unintentional suicides.
Sort of makes you wonder about the rest of their data.....
Hey Laci,
ReplyDeleteDig this comment fragment from your previous post on this crime.
You would think a person who spent his life protecting others from harm and apprehending wrong-doers would understand not to carry a weapon around as a means of asserting power over others.
See? Great minds think alike. Mind you, as far as your mind being great, the jury is still out. But you stole my idea. Does that mean we can be friends?
Any friend of Laci's is no friend of mine.
DeleteYou have no friends.
DeleteIn response to Anonymous,
DeleteThat is hateful. Or is it a reflection upon oneself?
Take a look at Greg's digital footprint. He has a life, complete with friends, literature, ethanol, and a good taste in firearms (however frugal). Can we say the same about yourself?
Thanks, Ian.
DeleteYes I can and I don't graduate the ranked dumbest students in the country. A great achievement in failure. Liars don't make friends, except for other liars like you SS, TS, and of course the site asshole lying coward.
Delete"The Christian Science Monitor has a piece with the same title I used here ..."
ReplyDeleteSo the Silly Little Pervert is also a plagiarist lacking even enough intelligence and creativity to come up with his own title. How shocking (not).
I've decided that due to Anon's/Steve's/whoever's multiple identity issue, I'm going to take a time out from all Anons and Steve. I think I'm going to start with a weekend and see how I feel on Monday.
ReplyDeleteHis cackling hurts my ears, and I think it was TS that commented that its like talking to a five year old. That made me think because I use the same logic with my teenage son when he argues with his six year old sister. I always ask him what he hopes to accomplish by arguing with a six year old. Thank you TS.
I want to apologize in advance to the at least one Anon that I know that actually makes adult comments. Maybe we can talk come Monday.
Mike, sorry if this makes me a poor guest, but its getting old.
Your replies prove me correct, and thanks for that
DeleteTbT, the numbers reported by the VPC about concealed carry killers are vastly under-reported. I don't know it they publish some kind of disclaimer or not, but I don't think they get them all. Plus, let's not forget those numbers are only for murder. The various other misuses of guns aren't included, many of which go completely unpunished.
ReplyDelete"Since 2007, 555 people have been killed in 33 states in such instances."
DeleteActually Mike, I just commented on that just above. VPC also includes suicide in the list. And by that, I mean just the solo suicides, not murder/suicides.
Another interesting fact, if you do a search of suicide on the VPC's list, you'll discover that 132 of those "concealed carry killers" victims were themselves. And I only counted the ones that weren't murder-suicides.
Let's see, the VPC has managed to inflate their numbers by 25% just by including something that in in most states isn't even illegal. And their were seven unintentional suicides.
Sort of makes you wonder about the rest of their data.....