Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Even 'Gun Nuts' Can Oppose This


David Horsley is an Amarillo author and freelance writer. He teaches English at West Texas A and M University.





After what amounts to a love paean to guns, the author makes some good points.

College administrators didn’t want the law. They felt their students would be less safe, rather than more safe, if the law had passed.

Next, there was almost universal opposition to the law by peace officers who currently serve at our colleges and universities across Texas. They felt adding guns to a mixture of college students, occasional all-night partying and beer bongs might produce an unintended fizz.

College students themselves didn’t want guns on campus, either. Campus polls conducted across the state were almost unanimous in rejecting the bill.

So you have to wonder: If university administrators didn’t want guns, campus police didn’t want guns and students didn’t want guns, who did want guns on campuses?

The answer seems to be the Texas Legislature and a few influential backers.
What's your opinion? Is the push for guns on campus in various states an example of NRA and gun-lobby bullying?

Please leave a comment.

32 comments:

  1. No, we don't oppose concealed carry on campus. How many college students have carry licenses? The minimum age in most states is twenty-one. That mostly limits this to seniors and graduate students. And to faculty and staff, since we don't get considered typically in this discussion. We're not hanging around playing beer pong. We have a responsibility to protect our students, but at the moment under the law, we're disarmed.

    That's the key point. Anyone who wants to bring a gun on campus is able to do so. Banning carry only affects those of us who follow the law. Gun-free-zone signs don't work, as we've seen time and again.

    And before we hear the old line about how the same argument applies to laws against murder, murder is fundamentally wrong, while carrying a handgun is not a wrong by itself. That's the difference.

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    1. To expand on what Greg said, a key difference is that gun control laws are intended to prevent murder (or other forms of violence). So it is an indirect path to the same ends of making things like murder illegal. Therefore it needs to be evaluated to its final goal. Does banning the carry of guns positively or negatively affect murder rates? Direct law vs. indirect law- that is the big difference. Unless of course the intent of a given gun law is just because they hate guns- then it would be direct. But that is not what the gun control groups publicly tell us.

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    2. Wow, that posted right away! Cool, Mike.

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    3. So far so good with the moderation off.

      You guys keep repeating that old argument about criminals not obeying the law but we're not talking about them. We're talking about the non-criminals who cannot be trusted with guns.

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    4. But Mikeb, if you believe in democracy, you have to trust non-criminals. The other name for them is citizens.

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    5. No, the other name is occupants of the Gray Zone.

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    6. Maybe we should make them all wear stars on their chests or something like that huh? Make those people easier to ID and know who can and can't be trusted?

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    7. No, stars on the chest won't be necessary. We just need better screening and stricter qualifying standards.

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    8. Nope, those won't be necessary either.

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  2. Once again, Poorfessor Camp demonstrates his amazing ability to be completely full of shit about HIS constituence, the college student.

    "The minimum age in most states is twenty-one. That mostly limits this to seniors and graduate students"

    Bullshit.

    This:

    Student Demographics

    2007–2008 [5]
    Average age: 28
    Median age: 23
    21 or younger: 39%
    22–39: 45%

    is from here (http://www.aacc.nche.edu/AboutCC/Pages/fastfacts.aspx).

    Do you ever check to see if you've got anything blocking the barrel before you shoot your load?

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    1. If you're talking about community colleges, there are no dorms in those. That's where a good portion of those older students go. Besides, the older a person is, the less that person engages in the kind of behavior that is a concern.

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    2. C'mon Greg. Admit it when democommie slaps you down. It'll do ya no harm.

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    3. If that ever happens, I'll acknowledge it.

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  3. Democulo, if 39% are 21, which is what Greg said the law is, the question is: How many are younger? Seems you shot your load. Why don't you go check, investigate, and research that for us.
    orlin sellers

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  4. Demokkkommie,
    Howsabout we kompromise by banning teh evil porslin Glockseven that goze thru the seethrumachine at teh aeroport?

    Lacey

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  5. Greg Kampf is the one who brough it up, dickheads, let him defend himself with his crossdraw .44 of logic.

    Hey, I know one of you gunzloonz is a math genius, do the numbers. 39% are 21 and under. Let's just concede that 2/3 of those (26%) are under 21. Let's then add the remaining 13% to the 45% of students who are 22-39 we arrive at a figure of 58% of the student population being 21 or over.

    The fact is Greg Camp is quite fond of spouting unsupported and unsupportable bullshit. That you morons want to back him up doesn't add anything but another layer of teh burnin' stoopit to the shit sandwish that you're eating.

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    1. Democulo said, "Let's just concede that 2/3 of those (26%) are under 21"

      Let's not. You brought up the percentages, so get them right. If one of us 'gunloonz' tried to pull a stunt like this, you'd be ejaculating vulgarities, having spastic convulsions and volcanic conniption fits like a crazed banshee.
      However, if you wish to concede that you are full of toro caca, we can move on.
      orlin sellers

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    2. Question... Is dog gone dead? I haven't seen her copy and paste others' writing here for a while.

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    3. Maybe she got a job at Huffington Post.

      Lacey

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    4. Dog Gone is still writing over at the Penigma blog. See the links in the right-hand column.

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    5. So she's not dead?

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    6. She disappeared around the same time MikeB302000 opened up moderation. Laci has been conspicuously absent as well. I think that says it all.

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  6. Demokkkommie,
    How was my imitation of your writing style? I'm trying for one part German compound words, one part illiterate student of Greg Camp, and one part stroke victim.

    Lacey

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    1. Needs more Z's. Also call someone a racist. The stroke victim aspect is right on!

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  7. The meme goes like this, “if only other students with concealed carry weapons were there then the (Georgia Tech) shooter would have been cut down before he killed so many”

    This is wrong on so many levels and clearly shows the bankruptcy of conservative thought.

    First off Universities are not supposed to be armed camps. Professors and Administrators really should not have the requirement of packing heat as part of their jobs. Is it really that hard to get students to turn their term papers on time? Are you telling me that besides being an expert in Aristotelian logic, professors need to qualify with an Uzi? So instead of sniping at each other with words, the Professors can now snipe at each other with Kalashnikovs? This is supposed to be an improvement?

    Even more insane is the idea of arming the students. Believe it or else some pundits have argued that this incident proves that banning concealed carry firearms on campus is bad idea; that we need more students armed to the teeth like Mr. Hui. The NRA types made this point before with the Columbine massacre too. Exactly were do the NRA types propose to place the cut off point, 6th grade? KinderCare? Yes! Once we have toddlers running around with Glocks the world will be a much better place!

    College is a challenge for both students and staff. The young adults there are away from home for their first time, they are trying to figure out what to do with their lives, and they have to deal with a myriad of other issues. The NRA and other Conservative now want to add guns to this mix, as alcohol fueled frat parties don’t cause enough problems.

    From the very blog post I ever released on the Internet; all the way back in April 21, 2007 ( http://wiskeytangofoxtrotoscar.blogspot.com/2007/04/musing-on-virgina-tech.html ) The more things change, the more they remain the same.

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    1. The bankruptcy of conservative thought? What a stupid fucking thoughtless metaphor.

      Lacey

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    2. James Ala, your comment is filled with reflexive spewing, not thought. Did the Virginia Tech shooter ask for permission to carry guns on campus before he shot the place up? That's the point. Bad guys don't ask permission. Those of us with carry licenses have been checked and usually tested. You seem to think that licenses get handed out without any standards. That's not true in the states that I'm familiar with--Tennessee, Arkansas, and Florida.

      Or do you believe that the boundary of the campus is a magical line that creates a zone of peace within?

      And by the way, Glock, Uzi, and Kalashnikov aren't words of power. They're not even the best choice in their categories for many jobs.

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    3. James Ala, thanks for the comment. I'm with you all the way.

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  8. Why does student approval of a fundamental right matter? If most students wanted to deny other students their right to vote because "it is a turbulent period with hormones, stress, booze, and parties and students couldn't be trusted to make a wise decision at the voting booth", is that justification to limit their voting rights?

    I agree that neither university Presidents, administration, faculty, nor other staff members are responsible for student security. The students themselves are responsible for their own personal security. Students have a right to defend themselves and there is nothing magical about a university campus that makes violent crime impossible. And what about the staff? Why does their right to defend themselves end at the edge of campus?

    But for anyone with doubts, I'll personally begin advocating total and complete gun control if you can just find me two documented instances of students or faculty who are concealed license carriers that have assaulted someone with their firearm at a university in Utah ... where the state does not criminalize a citizen who carries on campus with a concealed carry license.

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    1. I agree it's not a majority-rules kinda thing. It's life and death, and should be considered with the import it deserves.

      It's you gun guys who keep playing the majority card. The truth is you are not in the majority, you are smaller and smaller fraction of the whole depending on how strictly you define it.

      80M gun owners = a minority of the population

      It starts there and goes down the more you narrow it. Remove the gun owners who are totally apathetic or actually agree with us. Then remove the reasonable ones who accept part of what we say. What's left is a small but well-financed and extremely vocal minority.

      Even that can be funnelled down to the so-called 3%ers and other gun-rights extremists.

      So, although it's not a popularity contest, it's good to keep in mind who you really are and not exaggerate it.

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    2. And you deny the evidence that both gun ownership and concealed carry licensing are on the rise. But don't worry. Things will turn out better than you expected.

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    3. Not My Real NameMarch 1, 2012 at 3:04 PM

      MikeB, your side could not even get 100 people to agree to boycott Starbucks on a Facebook page. When you say that we are not in the majority, let's keep things in perspective. Just because someone may not be a gun owner, or may be apathetic to gun rights does not automatically put them on your side. Since none of the gun control groups will release membership numbers, one can only guess how many supporters there is for gun control. My opinion is that it is at least an order of magnitude lower than those who support gun rights.

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