arma virumque cano (et alia)
It's true every damn bit of it.
Are you seriously goning to quote George Carlin. I thought you were a minister. George Carlin was the most anti-religion comedian there was.
"I thought you were a minister."Huh?
He probably thought that because of your "holier than thou" attitude.
Could any one of you pro gun people tell me why most of you are also pro life/anti abortion? If every life is sacred, why do you believe someone who you THINK is threatening you is somehow less worthy of living than you? If you ask us to rely on your good judgement to make sure that you don't end up killing someone you probably shouldn't have, why can't we trust women's judgement about the life in their wombs? It can't be a "the fetus is innocent" argument, because sometimes gun owners kill innocent people by mistake. It might not happen a lot, but why would you take that chance? I don't mean to be snarky -- really. I just think it is intellectually inconsistent to be pro gun and pro life.
Sam, don't get snarky about how long it takes for a reply. I was at work and a writers' meeting. The gun control people rarely give my side any answer, even after days or weeks.But to answer your question:A fetus is regarded as an innocent life--a person who has done nothing wrong. People who oppose abortion believe that the fetus is fully human, with the same basic rights as the rest of us. A criminal who is putting my life in danger has made a choice to do wrong. You are correct that anyone can make a mistake, although that's rare. We train to avoid making an error. What we claim is that the benefit outweighs the risk. To support the right of self defense while also opposing abortion is not inconsistent when you accept that adults are able to choose their actions, while fetuses are not.In the previous paragraph, I was speaking for people who oppose abortion. My own position is that a woman should be free to choose in the first two trimesters. Abortion should be available in the third trimester if the mother's life is in danger. That's how I balance my respect for life with my respect for the privacy and autonomy of each person. I also believe in the right of each person to own and carry a gun.
Thank you, Greg, for the articulate and thoughtful answer. I believe you would be pro choice and pro gun, so it may not be fair to ask. But isn't the summary execution of someone you perceive to do wrong a denial of the redemptive power of Christ? No matter what terrible actions a person has committed, salvation is still possible, no? In a way, it seems profoundly selfish to try to preserve your own life at the expense of another. Compare that to St. Perpetua, who guided her executioner's hand.
I would also like to point out that Greg's idea is a half-assed pro-choice. "First two trimesters," after which old men decide what all women can do with their bodies. Either you're pro-choice or you're not. You're not.
Sam, I'm not a Christian. From my reading of the Bible and other Christian texts, I agree that the religion does have a pacifist core. But Jesus does advise his disciples in the Last Supper that if they don't have a sword, they should sell clothing and buy one. The implication is that when Jesus is executed, his followers will face dangers that they have to defend themselves against.For myself, I'm happy to leave people to decide the course of their lives for themselves, so long as they extend the same courtesy to me. If someone tries to kill me, I am no longer interested in that person's soul or life history or any other irrelevant matter. I'm concerned in that moment only with stopping the attack.Mikeb, are you saying that there are no women who are doctors? I said that if an abortion is medically necessary in the third trimester, it should be allowed. The key point to me is that during that period, the fetus can survive outside the mother. That introduces a new element in the calculations. Feel free to call me in favor of two-thirds choice, if you must, but the question of abortion is not simply black or white, despite your love of the false dichotomy.
OK, you're not a Christian. No problem. It's just that the pro-life movement is driven mainly by Christian fundamentalists. That's why I won't fault you for misinterpreting the sword stuff. The prophecy was that Jesus would be held in the ranks of criminals. If the disciples brought a couple of swords with them, the guards in the Garden of Gethsemane would see them and Jesus as just a bunch of crooks. It was just fulfilling the will of God, not a call to armed self-defense.
Let's say that there are a variety of ways of reading the text, depending on one's approach to it.
Greg, who are you to put ANY restrictions on what a woman can do with her own body. You're the big individual freedom guy around here.Would you stand for it if a panel of women voted to make it illegal for you to masturbate? No, you'd be outraged. How dare anyone tell you what you can or cannot do with your body. But, they claim, those sperms have the potential for life, they're sacred, that's why it's a sin to waste your seed that way. And because the abominable behavior is so widespread, the government needs to step in.On the abortion issue, men should shut the fuck up.
A lot of people look to the New and Old Testament to bolster political beliefs. That's ok. But taking that passage from Luke and understanding it as Jesus approving of violence is wrong. When Peter cuts off a guard's ear in the Garden following this "two swords" discussion, Jesus stops him from further violence and heals the ear. There might be parts of the New Testament that are vague, but this isn't one of them. The swords were a way to make the guards think that Jesus and the disciples were criminals, as the prophecy indicated. Of course, people claiming to be Christians (and Greg, I understand that you do not) have been committing violence ever since. The Catholic church's "just war doctrine" is just a way to get skeptical Christians on board with a popular war. Let's hear a pro-lifer explain how it's ok when a drone blows up a suspected terrorist's home, and takes out a few kids with it. You can be pro-gun and pro-war, but you can't simultaneously be pro-life.
Sam, you should be careful bringing the Old Testament into this, since there's a lot of genocide and capital punishment in that text. The reason that the Bible appeals to so many is because there is so much in it. The same is true about any great work of literature. Look, for example, at how the Germanic tribes interpreted Christianity in the early Middle Ages. They saw Jesus as a warrior prince, and God the Father as a warlord. Thus was the appeal to the kings of those tribes. Different periods and different readers have come to their own conclusions about what's in the text, and I hestitate to define one as the correct one.Mikeb, no life is at state in masturbation. I'm saying that six months with no questions asked is a long time to make up one's mind. I even acknowledge the need for a medical necessity exemption in the third trimester, and that's a broad, um, what's that word you love? Oh, yes, loophole. What I'm saying is that during the last third of a pregnancy, there are two sets of rights to take into consideration. Besides, when have you ever shut up about meddling with the rights of others?
How come you don't link to Carlin's video advising serial killers on how to not get caught?
Give us the link.
That is how to go about doing it. The fact is, though, that sociopaths are either too arrogant or too crazy to follow those rules.
Sam- I too, am pro-gun & pro-choice. I do believe in certain restrictions on both though.