National Confidential
While the NRA is blaming video games and the media for the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre, an incident involving the NRA president’s son may create new controversy.He was a lawful gun owner with a concealed carry permit, you know the kind that makes us all safer.
In 2002, David Michael Keene, the son of NRA president David Keene was arrested for firing a gun at a motorist while driving along the George Washington Memorial Parkway in a road rage incident. He was later convicted and sentenced to 10 years in prison for “using, brandishing, and discharging a firearm in a crime of violence.”
In an interview with the New Yorker, the elder Keene said he did not feel his organization’s policy of unrestricted access to guns was counteracted by his son’s own actions.
Where do you get the idea that the younger Keene had a carry license? According to news reports, he'd been institutionalized for mental problems. Under Federal and state law, he couldn't own a gun legally. Nor could he have a carry license. He was not lawful
ReplyDeleteI love the "exceptionalism" clause. The gun guys use it all the time when they claim that conceal carry permit holders are all law-abiding citizens, but when one of them slips up and shoots themselves or others, whether accidentally or with malice, or leave guns where kids can get them, well those are the "exceptions" and should be ignored, and they come up with all sorts of justifications for why they are the exceptions ("they just weren't trained properly", "accidents happen", or "the kid should have known better").
ReplyDeleteDid you read my comment? There's no evidence that the younger Keene had a carry license. Facts matter, whether you care about them or not.
DeleteStay focused. The article deals with a single individual, whom Mike insists was a lawful gun owner. No one has yet provided evidence to prove that assertion. It's fallacious, at best, to argue from the specific to the general if the specific isn't true.
DeleteThis isn't about the specific to the general or anything else. This is about the charges. When people are felons in possession of a gun, that's one of the charges. When people are carrying a gun without a permit, that's one of the charges. A small amount of deductive reasoning tells us, in the absence of those charges, that the guy was a lawful gun owner with a carry permit.
DeleteMikeb, prosecutors don't always file every possible charge. They're busy people. Sometimes, they agree to let some things go. But the younger Keene had been committed to a mental institution. If he had a carry license, he either lied in his application or there was an error in the system. He was a prohibited person. You persist in this idea that the absence of evidence is evidence in support.
DeleteActually, when Baldr chooses to use this case (the specific) to generalize to a greater population (the general) that makes it induction - by definition. Since there is no evidence to support his claim, my argument stands. There's no evidence because the most your deductive reasoning can tell us is that Keene might have been lawful owner. However,deduction also tells us that since he had a documented history of being institutionalized for mental health problems he could not have been a lawful owner. Simply put, state and federal law prohibit those with a history of mental illness from owning guns. He had such a history. Ergo, he was not a lawful owner.
DeleteAre you sure about all that, RM? Don't you think his daddy might have pulled some strings for his sonny boy? After all, technicalities shouldn't stand in the way of someone exercising their God-given rights.
DeleteYou see, the lawful gun owner and the criminal gun owner and the gun owner with mental illness are all closely related. Gun control folks don't shoot people in road rage incidents.
I'm sure that you're engaging in no more than speculation. Now, could your speculation be correct? Of course. Have you demonstrated that it is correct? No, you haven't. All you've done is argue that what you want to be true, must of necessity be true.
DeleteWell, we are just talking here. This is a blog it's not a legal proceeding.
DeleteMike B, you mean that he was able, by virtue of his position in the NRA, to get a governmental organization that is fundamentally opposed to the NRA's positions to allow his son with a history of mental illness to legally own and carry a firearm? Really?
DeleteA handful of examples of those "exceptions", though there are plenty posted here at this blog lots of times:
ReplyDeletehttp://kidshootings.blogspot.com/search/label/Conceal%20Carry%20In%20Schools
http://walmartshootings.blogspot.com/search/label/conceal%20carry
And how many of these examples are there? Remember that you'll have to divide that number by the eight million--that's 8,000,000--carry license holders and even more citizens who live in states that don't require a license.
DeleteAnd let's not forget the extensive list of conceal carry killers kept by the Violence Policy Center:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm
Here's an actual number. According to the Violence Policy Center, there have been about 499 deaths caused by carry license holders or by people living in Constitutional carry states since 2007. Of course, some among the number are cases yet to be determined as criminal acts, but let's not quibble. That's about 500 over a period of more than five years. That's out of the millions of people who have licenses or whose governments respect their rights. I'll leave you to tell us the percentage of "killers."
DeleteGreg, those are only the ones that came to their attention. No one is checking if every person who breaks the law or who commits murder has a carry license.
DeleteJust because law enforcement doesn't tell you or because a news agency doesn't report every single fact in a case does not mean that no one is checking. And the VPC is highly motivated to find cases for its list. Said organization hates private ownership and carry of guns.
DeleteIn order to be a 'chip of the old block' you are implying that Mr. Keene was guilty of a road rage shooting, also. Are you a chip off the old block, mikeb?
ReplyDeleteorlin sellers