The reason, of course, is simple: reasonable people understand gunloons care not a whit about gun violence and, especially, gun violence in Mexico. After all, when it was revealed what was known all along--that US gun dealers were supplying cartels with the vast majority of weaponry--the gunloons reacted predictably. They claimed it wasn't true and, hey, if was--so what? It's Mexico.
Now, this is not to say any operation that is ill-advised or poorly executed shouldn't be investigated and those responsible demoted or fired, if need be. But once more, the gunloons, in their phony outrage, have overreached. They're trying to claim its's an Act of War or that it was illegal or all sorts of nonsense. All of which is patently false. Even the Repugs--who'd dearly love to believe it was true--can't.
"After all, when it was revealed what was known all along--that US Government Agents dealers were supplying cartels with the vast majority of weaponry..."
ReplyDeleteThere, fixed it for you.
So let me get this straight, you think its ok for the govt. to run guns into Mex. and possibly Honduras? Who is the loon here?
ReplyDelete'Fast and Furious' scandal grows with revelation that Mexican cartel suspects may be paid U.S. informants
ReplyDeleteDid they tell congress this as well?
If not did they tell as head of DOJ AG Holder?
cowman said...
ReplyDeleteSo let me get this straight, you think its ok for the govt. to run guns into Mex. and possibly Honduras? Who is the loon here?
July 12, 2011 6:44 PM
And send those weapons loose in the hands of Cartel members, and not tell their respective govt how or when to track the weapons.
Cowman, the Feds screwed up big time in their attempts to track guns to the top level bad guys.
ReplyDeleteTheir hearts were in the right place, but heaven only knows where their heads were. The question that came to my mind when I first read this was "What were they thinking?"
I don't find from this that THE MAJORITY of guns were supplied by U.S. government agents btw; there was a well documented sale of a lot of guns to Mexico long before this badly conceived attempt to stop guns across our southern border was attempted.
So, to answer your question cowman, no it is not ok for the government to run guns into Mexico, but as dumb as this was, it isn't the primary source of firearms over the border, nor does it mean better conceived efforts to stop guns out of the country should be stopped.
You have to be a lunatic to conceive that was anyone's intent.
dog gone, where do you think most of the weapons the cartels have come from? It certainly isn't civilian guns stores, most come from south of mex. borders or from corrupt mex. army personel. When was the last time you saw a gun store or a gun show selling title 3 weapons or explosive devices like grenades?
ReplyDelete"When was the last time you saw a gun store or a gun show selling title 3 weapons or explosive devices like grenades?"
ReplyDeleteDog Gone has likely never stepped foot in either.
You'd be wrong as usual Anonymous; I've done both, and far more than once.
ReplyDeleteI believe that most of the guns come from us, the United States, through illegal means.
Some of that is theft from U.S. gun owners, some of it is straw man theft, some of it is theft from our military, and only a small amount apparently from arms dealers.
And an additional amount is from illegal sales by members of the Mexican military....who got them from us.
Actually, most of the illegal arms to Mexico come from gun dealers.
ReplyDeleteOnce again Jadegold you are full of excrement and have no f***ing clue of what your talking about
ReplyDeleteCowman: You're free to deny it all you wish but the facts are what they are. I'm sure the cartels are getting firearms in onesies and twosies via straw purchases and stolen weapons but the fact is they can do one stop shopping at US gun dealers.
ReplyDeleteYou may want to do a search on Chaparral Guns in Chaparral, N.M and why the town of Columbus, NM doesn't have a police force anymore.
Jade: “You may want to do a search on Chaparral Guns in Chaparral, N.M and why the town of Columbus, NM doesn't have a police force anymore.”
ReplyDeletePerhaps gun control should drop the exemptions for police officers from their proposals.
Jade: “Actually, most of the illegal arms to Mexico come from gun dealers. You're free to deny it all you wish but the facts are what they are.”
ReplyDeleteShow me the “facts” that proves that the majority (more than 50%) of seized drug cartel guns come from US gun dealers. That is ALL guns, not just a selection of the ones that came from the United States (yeah, I know that sounds silly, but that is exactly the “proof” that was used before). And at this point we need to exclude the Fast and Furious ones from that count as well. I don’t deny that *some* guns come from US gun dealers, but *most* is a very different meaning and quite wrong.
Besides, Mexico should just make guns legal, that way *most* of them can come from their own gun dealers.
TS: If you're unwilling to accept facts from your own Govt., I doubt there's anything else I could show you to convince you.
ReplyDeleteAt some point, gunloons need to stop with all the conspiracy theories about the US Govt and accept responsibility for the facts.
Gunlooon: SHOW ME FACT!!!! PROVE IT!!!
ReplyDeleteMe: Here are the Govt. facts...
Gunloon: NO! NO! ThE GOVT IS LYING! ThEY're JACKBOOTED THUGS!!!
NO PROOF!!~!
Gee Jade, how often do you see title 3 weapons and explosive devices for sale at U.S. gun stores? Why would the cartels buy the majority of weapons, as you and others claim, from U.S. gun stores when they can aquire full auto weapons from the Mex. army or south of their border?
ReplyDeleteYou really should do some research before making a fool of yourself.
Jadegold, you would have us believe the govt.? The same govt. that allowed straw purchases and then allowed them to walk into Mex. where subsequently a border patrol agent was killed by one of these firearms? The same govt. that tells us everyday that the economy is getting better and that the jobs are coming back? That govt.?
ReplyDeleteIf you weren't so pathetic, you might be funny
Thought eexperiment for you, Cow.
ReplyDeleteMedical doctors sometimes make mistakes--mistakes that can be fatal. The US military has no shortage of screwups on its record.
Are you prepared not to visit a doctor the next time you get sick or injured? Do you hate the military because there have been times when they did the wrong thing or badly managed a program?
Jade, ever since my tour in Vietnam, I don't trust the govt. about anything.
ReplyDeleteHere's a thought experiment for you, if guns are so evil, why are violent crime rates at historical lows while gun ownership is at historical highs? Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying more guns=less crime, but ceratinly more guns does not= more crime.
Law abiding citizens should be allowed to have and carry the means to defend themselves from criminals. It has been shown that statistcally that CCW holders are much less to likely commit crimes than the general public.
Jade: “If you're unwilling to accept facts from your own Govt., I doubt there's anything else I could show you to convince you.”
ReplyDeleteYou can start by showing me the facts. A link perhaps? Do you accept my above terms for qualifying as “most”? More than 50% of all seized guns originating from US gun dealers. This excludes military full-auto and transactions that would have been stopped by dealers if not forced to proceed by the ATF.
Cow: if you mistrust the Govt so deeply--I'd suggest you have bigger issues than gun control.
ReplyDeleteTS: The facts are out there. But if you insist the Govt is lying about everything--I haven't a clue as to what I could show you. It's a little like explaining physics to someone who believes magic is responsible for everything.
The facts are out there but you can’t find them? I don’t mistrust the government so deeply. If you are talking about that old 90% figure I believe the facts exactly as they are- that Mexico has a 90% success rate reading the manufacturer’s stamp on the gun. Still that doesn’t even suggest how many of those guns came from US dealers vs. our government supplying arms to the Mexican police and military. Or how many of them came from our dealers at the bequest of our government. But I don’t think you were talking about that 90% figure last spring. You know better than that. You have something else- so lets see it.
ReplyDeleteTS: I can find them...so can you.
ReplyDeleteHere's a factoid. On the US border with Mexico, in what is a pretty sparsely populated area, there are nearly 7000 gun dealers.
Why? Are they seriously kept in business by a couple of hundred US "law abiding citizens?"
Or do you think it possible they are supplementing their income in some way?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26borders.html
Jade: “Here's a factoid. On the US border with Mexico, in what is a pretty sparsely populated area, there are nearly 7000 gun dealers.”
ReplyDeleteHere is another factoid. There are 118,000 licensed dealers in the country as of 2010. Seems kind of alarmist when you consider that equals 6% along a 2000 mile stretch of land.
I am not saying there are not some guns crossing into Mexico from straw purchasers. You are the one claiming it is over 50% of the supply, and you have nothing to indicate anywhere near that. And your link just proves it is against the law and dealers can and do get prosecuted for it which means you were sagely wrong when you said this:
Jadegold 1/7/2011: “And even those dealers who are required to conduct checks have no fear of not conducting them because there are no penalties for failing to do so.”
Let’s break this down a little further. The article you linked to says there are 6600 dealers “along the border”. You called it sparsely populated, but the subject of the article is a dealer in Phoenix. If you are going to include Phoenix, you are also going to include Tucson, San Antonio, Corpus Christi, certainly San Diego, probably even LA. So what exactly is the criteria for counting a “border dealer”? If we take a strip of land 150 miles from the border, it totals 300,000 square miles. The USA is 3.8M square miles total, so that amounts to 8% of the total area. So that is less than 6% of the FFLs covering 8% of the country. Nice factoid, Jade. Foiled by math once again.
ReplyDeleteYS: Actually, the math works quite nicely in my favor.
ReplyDeleteThere are 4 states that border Mexico: CA, AZ, NM, TX. The total population of those 4 states is around 50M.
Now, if we take those 7000 gun dealers who are operating preatty eclose to the US/Mexico border---we see that there is one gun dealer for every ~7000 man, woman and child.
Note that I'm taking the entire population of those 4 states. If we were to winnow the population numbers down to just those who live in close proximity to the gun dealers---that ~7000 man, woman and child number drops considerably. And if I were to exclude children and, say, half the women--that number drops down even farther.
Sorry, TS, math just ain't your thing.
Wasn’t your initial argument that there are lots of gun dealers servicing a sparsely populated area- so therefore they must be actually servicing the Mexican drug lords to stay in business? Wasn’t that your point? So I showed you how they are actually less dense than the rest of the country. Then you do you math for the whole population of the four border states which is 1/6th the nation’s population (who knows what they counted- maybe they counted dealers in Eureka, CA which is pretty dumb, but maybe they did). The bigger the area they counted, the less it works in your favor- remember how you called it sparsely populated? So if 6% of the FFLs are serving an area with 1/6th the US population- how exactly does the math work quite nicely in your favor? Your point was that there is an abundance of dealers on the border, right? You are saying there is one dealer per 7000 population (not all being customers). That leaves 111,000 dealers for the rest of the 250million people or one dealer for every ~2250 man, woman and child for the rest of the country (and they don’t have all the Mexican clientele).
ReplyDeleteForget math, what grade did you get in High School debate class?
The funniest thing about this ATF scandal is the way gun-rights folks pretend that it reflects badly on the gun control movement.
ReplyDeleteThis has become the mother of all diversions.
MikeB: “The funniest thing about this ATF scandal is the way gun-rights folks pretend that it reflects badly on the gun control movement.”
ReplyDeleteIt reflects badly on the ATF. I don’t think that necessarily means the entire movement, agreed? It does become quite laughable when “the movement” (especially the ATF) says we need long gun reporting in light of this scandal. So it does reflect pretty badly on that particular issue.
After all, when it was revealed what was known all along--that US gun dealers were supplying cartels with the vast majority of weaponry--the gunloons reacted predictably. They claimed it wasn't true and, hey, if was--so what? It's Mexico.
ReplyDeleteThis is demonstrably false. Wikileaks, media in Latin American report the weapons are being imported through the southern border. Some are from abroad. Most of these weapons are machine guns, rocket launchers etc. stolen from military depots and purchased from black market.
@ dog gone: Their hearts were in the right place
ReplyDeleteYou should re-think that. Try this scenario: You're a hospital nurse, and your boss tells you to quit using the brands of antibiotics and meds that you normally use and instead use a bunch of black market meds because hospital authorities want to confirm whether any of them contain lethal substances. Of course you say Are you kidding, people will die, and your boss says Just do it; I've got this covered. So you do as your boss says. Sure enough patients die, autopsies are done, and these black market meds do contain things like arsenic and cyanide. Brilliant detective work, huh?
Then it turns out no one knows which patients even got what meds -- everyone in the hospital might have gotten some of them, even the hospital cafeteria used black market disinfectants and ingredients, and a couple of hospital visitors have died with the same evidence of arsenic and cyanide poisoning. But no one will say who originated this insane idea, and the scope of the crime and the levels of coordination mean everyone had to be involved -- Medical Staff, Nursing Services, Administrative Support, Clinical Support -- right up to the Executive Staff. They're all denying they knew about it, but instead they're saying "We need tighter FDA regulation," and people are beginning to wonder if all this was done deliberately just to get some tighter regulations written.
Which side do you come down on?
GEJ, C'mon man, what do you want to do, haggle over the percentages? Some of the stuff comes from foreign sources, some comes from accross the border. Is the latter part insignificant in your opinion?
ReplyDeleteThat's what the excess of attention on the ATF's fuck-up is all about, taking the attention away from the fact that thousands of FFL guys opened up shop in those border states and have been capitalizing on the booming business. That's why they're so afraid of the new multiple gun reporting requirement. It will put their criminal clients out of business.