I saw a recent interview on Cheney with both Wilson and his wife.
This outraged me at the time, and it outrages me now.
Isn't it amusing how you seldom / never see some of our leaders leaving the country for fear of being arrested? Cheney comes to mind. There are similarly places Kissinger does not go. The only place Bush has dared go that I'm aware of was a brief hop in and out of Canada, and even there, there was pressure and protests for his arrest.
I doubt that Holder is too worried about going to our U.S. southwest, including legal action.
Mexico may be pissed off about the badly planned and executed effort to stop gun traffic, but the intent was well meaning. When Mexico has all their ducks in a better row, they will have the moral high ground to complain. Given their problems with corruption, and some segments with ineptitud, there is sadly all too much criticism that can legitimately be leveled at both sides of the border.
That is a far cry from war crimes for the same conduct where we executed people in WW II - the Japanese notably - for waterboarding and for other clear and systemic examples of torture.
It is worth noting that the Japanese tried to justify their use of torture with the same reasoning that Cheney did.
"It is worth noting that the Japanese tried to justify their use of torture with the same reasoning that Cheney did."
Cheney is much, much, much whiter and taller than Hideki Tojo and the restothem bad peoples!!
Shall not be impinged by knowledge:
I'm not sure if I know the sound of one hand clapping, but I've been listening--far too much--to the sound of one mouth flapping; you really ought to take a course in logic.
Cheney charged with war crimes? What a laugh. Exactly what law did he allegedly break and what court would have jurisdiction to prosecute him? Other than a U.S. code and court of course?
War crimes are a dog and pony show. To be charged, prosecuted, convicted and sentenced for a "war crime", you have to be a totally defeated enemy of those choosing to prosecute you.
War crimes are about punishing those who do terribly wrong things, things which we have agreed NOT to do under the Geneva Conventions.
Water boarding is a U.S. crime, not just a foreign crime.
Cheney sets his big toe outside the U.S., ANYWHERE, he's going to face arrest and trial.
And well he should. This is not about winning and losing. If anythng, Cheney's directed actions cost us quite a lot - in international relations, and in acquiring false information rather than useful information, and in intensifying opposition to us among our enemies. He lost us any gains we might have made in persuading the other side that they were wrong.
"War crimes are about punishing those who do terribly wrong things, things which we have agreed NOT to do under the Geneva Conventions."
So what codified laws did the Germans and Japanese break? None. They lost is why they were tried and executed. I'm not saying that they were not monsters that should not have been punished. I am saying that there was no codified law that they broke. They were tried for non-existent laws.
"Water boarding is a U.S. crime, not just a foreign crime."
Why hasn't the government brought charges against Cheney then?
"Cheney sets his big toe outside the U.S., ANYWHERE, he's going to face arrest and trial."
Arrested by who? What government would try it? None that he would travel to I reckon. Do you really think any of our allied nations would risk an armed confrontation to arrest someone that has not been indicted for anything? And what court outside of the U.S. would even have jurisdiction?
"This is not about winning and losing."
But it is all about winning and losing. Was Stalin charged with any war crimes? He killed 20 million people. If it is all about what is right, why was he not charged? The answer is of course that he finished the war with the largest army on the planet. Only losers get convicted of war crimes--winners get to make up the crimes after the fact that the losers committed.
Any number of countries; Spain was issuing warrants at one point for war crimes. The Hague tribunal has been doing an excellent job of conducting war crime trials.
The only reason they haven't been arrested in the U.S. is that Obama admin has not had the balls to go forward with this, and they should.
If there was no risk, can you explain why those I listed are having to decline foreign invitations, invitations which initially they indicated the would like to accept?
There was an excellent question asked of Cheney in an interview on NBC by Matt Lauer. It was would it be wrong for another government to waterboard an American for the same reasons Cheney used to justify our waterboarding prisoners. He did not think it was justified for another government to do so, but his explanation was pretty lame. He tried to assert that Americans would never do anything wrong. We know that is not true, that U.S. citizens, acting for our government HAVE done some terrible things in other places.
No NATO country is going to charge any American official, past or present, with War Crimes and The Hague Tribunal has no jurisdiction to prosecute a Vice President, past or present.
Sorry, Spain has to defeat us to charge anyone with a war crime and we all know what happened the last time they went to war with us.
"He did not think it was justified for another government to do so, but his explanation was pretty lame. He tried to assert that Americans would never do anything wrong. We know that is not true, that U.S. citizens, acting for our government HAVE done some terrible things in other places."
I agree that his reason was wrong but the answer was right. American government officials are not subject to foreign judgement or prosecution for carrying out their duties. No American soldier or civilian should ever be subjected to torture by another government, but I am sure it has happened.
As to the people that were water-boarded by us, I do not agree that it is right but it is not a crime outside of U.S. jurisdiction either. To my knowledge, no nation that signed the Geneva convention made claim that any of the terrorists subjected were their soldiers and thus protected by the accords.
If the terrorists were not protected by Geneva, then what law was broken? Was it wrong to torture? Probably. Illegal? Not so much.
Again, only the defeated can be tried for a war crime.
No FWM, all that Spain has to do is issue a warrant in the EU, and if Cheney or Bush or anyone else they can charge with a war crime for violating law, like torture, sets foot in those countries, they can be arrested.
We don't have to go to war with Spain to accomplish that. Or any other country that might choose to do so.
They also have to fear future administrations who might not be as indulgent as Obama.
FWM, the fact that the war crimes system is totally fucked up and ends up only punishing vanquished former leaders, is not the point. In theory, it's supposed to punish global criminals, like Dog Gone said.
I'm outraged.
ReplyDeleteI saw a recent interview on Cheney with both Wilson and his wife.
This outraged me at the time, and it outrages me now.
Isn't it amusing how you seldom / never see some of our leaders leaving the country for fear of being arrested? Cheney comes to mind. There are similarly places Kissinger does not go. The only place Bush has dared go that I'm aware of was a brief hop in and out of Canada, and even there, there was pressure and protests for his arrest.
I wonder if holder will dare go on vacation to Mexico after Operation Fast and Furious?
ReplyDeleteThe Mexicans seem pretty pissed and are talking criminal proceedings?
Should be fun to watch.
I doubt that Holder is too worried about going to our U.S. southwest, including legal action.
ReplyDeleteMexico may be pissed off about the badly planned and executed effort to stop gun traffic, but the intent was well meaning. When Mexico has all their ducks in a better row, they will have the moral high ground to complain. Given their problems with corruption, and some segments with ineptitud, there is sadly all too much criticism that can legitimately be leveled at both sides of the border.
That is a far cry from war crimes for the same conduct where we executed people in WW II - the Japanese notably - for waterboarding and for other clear and systemic examples of torture.
It is worth noting that the Japanese tried to justify their use of torture with the same reasoning that Cheney did.
dog gone:
ReplyDeleteHow dare you!
"It is worth noting that the Japanese tried to justify their use of torture with the same reasoning that Cheney did."
Cheney is much, much, much whiter and taller than Hideki Tojo and the restothem bad peoples!!
Shall not be impinged by knowledge:
I'm not sure if I know the sound of one hand clapping, but I've been listening--far too much--to the sound of one mouth flapping; you really ought to take a course in logic.
Cheney charged with war crimes? What a laugh. Exactly what law did he allegedly break and what court would have jurisdiction to prosecute him? Other than a U.S. code and court of course?
ReplyDeleteWar crimes are a dog and pony show. To be charged, prosecuted, convicted and sentenced for a "war crime", you have to be a totally defeated enemy of those choosing to prosecute you.
FWM, You may be right about that, but that doesn't make it right, does it?
ReplyDeleteBeing right doesn't have anything to do with war crimes. War crimes is only about punishing the loser.
ReplyDeleteWar crimes are about punishing those who do terribly wrong things, things which we have agreed NOT to do under the Geneva Conventions.
ReplyDeleteWater boarding is a U.S. crime, not just a foreign crime.
Cheney sets his big toe outside the U.S., ANYWHERE, he's going to face arrest and trial.
And well he should. This is not about winning and losing. If anythng, Cheney's directed actions cost us quite a lot - in international relations, and in acquiring false information rather than useful information, and in intensifying opposition to us among our enemies. He lost us any gains we might have made in persuading the other side that they were wrong.
"War crimes are about punishing those who do terribly wrong things, things which we have agreed NOT to do under the Geneva Conventions."
ReplyDeleteSo what codified laws did the Germans and Japanese break? None. They lost is why they were tried and executed. I'm not saying that they were not monsters that should not have been punished. I am saying that there was no codified law that they broke. They were tried for non-existent laws.
"Water boarding is a U.S. crime, not just a foreign crime."
Why hasn't the government brought charges against Cheney then?
"Cheney sets his big toe outside the U.S., ANYWHERE, he's going to face arrest and trial."
Arrested by who? What government would try it? None that he would travel to I reckon. Do you really think any of our allied nations would risk an armed confrontation to arrest someone that has not been indicted for anything? And what court outside of the U.S. would even have jurisdiction?
"This is not about winning and losing."
But it is all about winning and losing. Was Stalin charged with any war crimes? He killed 20 million people. If it is all about what is right, why was he not charged? The answer is of course that he finished the war with the largest army on the planet. Only losers get convicted of war crimes--winners get to make up the crimes after the fact that the losers committed.
Sorry, war crimes are a dog and pony show.
Any number of countries; Spain was issuing warrants at one point for war crimes. The Hague tribunal has been doing an excellent job of conducting war crime trials.
ReplyDeleteThe only reason they haven't been arrested in the U.S. is that Obama admin has not had the balls to go forward with this, and they should.
If there was no risk, can you explain why those I listed are having to decline foreign invitations, invitations which initially they indicated the would like to accept?
There was an excellent question asked of Cheney in an interview on NBC by Matt Lauer. It was would it be wrong for another government to waterboard an American for the same reasons Cheney used to justify our waterboarding prisoners. He did not think it was justified for another government to do so, but his explanation was pretty lame. He tried to assert that Americans would never do anything wrong. We know that is not true, that U.S. citizens, acting for our government HAVE done some terrible things in other places.
No NATO country is going to charge any American official, past or present, with War Crimes and The Hague Tribunal has no jurisdiction to prosecute a Vice President, past or present.
ReplyDeleteSorry, Spain has to defeat us to charge anyone with a war crime and we all know what happened the last time they went to war with us.
"He did not think it was justified for another government to do so, but his explanation was pretty lame. He tried to assert that Americans would never do anything wrong. We know that is not true, that U.S. citizens, acting for our government HAVE done some terrible things in other places."
I agree that his reason was wrong but the answer was right. American government officials are not subject to foreign judgement or prosecution for carrying out their duties. No American soldier or civilian should ever be subjected to torture by another government, but I am sure it has happened.
As to the people that were water-boarded by us, I do not agree that it is right but it is not a crime outside of U.S. jurisdiction either. To my knowledge, no nation that signed the Geneva convention made claim that any of the terrorists subjected were their soldiers and thus protected by the accords.
If the terrorists were not protected by Geneva, then what law was broken? Was it wrong to torture? Probably. Illegal? Not so much.
Again, only the defeated can be tried for a war crime.
No FWM, all that Spain has to do is issue a warrant in the EU, and if Cheney or Bush or anyone else they can charge with a war crime for violating law, like torture, sets foot in those countries, they can be arrested.
ReplyDeleteWe don't have to go to war with Spain to accomplish that. Or any other country that might choose to do so.
They also have to fear future administrations who might not be as indulgent as Obama.
But if you think those individuals I've named don't believe that, be sure to let me know the next time they go to a foreign country.
ReplyDeleteFWM, the fact that the war crimes system is totally fucked up and ends up only punishing vanquished former leaders, is not the point. In theory, it's supposed to punish global criminals, like Dog Gone said.
ReplyDeleteBush and Cheney qualify.