Today The Gun Guys posted a press release by the Violence Policy Center.
The study, Law Enforcement and Private Citizens Killed by Concealed Handgun Permit Holders--An Analysis of News Reports, May 2007 to April 2009, finds that during the two-year period reviewed--
- Concealed handgun permit holders have slain seven law enforcement officers resulting in criminal charges or the suicide of the shooter. All of the killings were committed with guns. An additional three law enforcement officers were injured in these incidents.
- Concealed handgun permit holders have slain at least 44 private citizens resulting in criminal charges or the suicide of the shooter. All but one of the killings were committed with guns. An additional six private citizens were injured in these incidents.
- In six of the 31 incidents (19 percent), the concealed handgun permit holder killed himself, bringing the total fatality count to 57.
I'd like to mention that this list of 31 incidents is not supposed to be comprehensive. So, unfortunately, it cannot be divided by the total number of license holders to ascertain a percentage of wrongdoers. It's just not that simple.
Because most state systems allowing the carrying of concealed handguns in public by private citizens release little data about crimes committed by permit holders, the VPC reviewed shooting incidents as reported by news outlets.
Another factor is these news-worthy stories involved loss of life. When you consider the woundings as well as the brandishings and incidents of threatening behaviour which are sometimes done by armed men, even supposedly responsible ones, you've got a large problem on your hands.
What's your opinion? Please leave a comment.
You keep referring to the paid gun control advocates as definitive sources. I have a better one.
ReplyDelete"If you're not sure if a guy has a gun, you may not try to do some things to him that you might otherwise try to get away with," said Peoria police Officer Troy Skaggs, president of the Peoria Police Benevolent Union. "It's the fear of the unknown."
Illinois and Wisconsin are the only two states without some type of concealed-carry law.
In February, the Illinois Sheriffs' Association passed a resolution supporting a concealed-carry law in Illinois, with several conditions in place.
http://www.pjstar.com/news/x1730895291/Police-say-concealed-carry-law-would-deter-criminals
My opinion is that you continue to be FOS.
Mikeb,
ReplyDeleteOnce again you put out only the negative and most fringe element of a society and try to brandish it as the norm.
Over that two year period, care to elaborate on how many CCW holders a) fired their gun in self defense, b) pulled their gun in a legitimate manner but never pulled the trigger, or c) carried and never went on a killing rampage.
Since you are stuck on the social utility of firearms (which I am not), at least have the integrity to show both the positive and negative and explain how the negative outweighs the positive.
If you don't like others comparisons to cars, poison, knifes, rocks, or bathtubs, educate us dumb hicks on why the issue if different. "Because I said so" is a childish response that provides nothing to the debate.
MikeB quotes a paid anti-gun advocacy group that has zero members.
ReplyDeleteI'll quote a police officer:
"In my 34 years of law enforcement, there have been many, many instances that I knew if the victim would have had a weapon to defend themselves, the outcome would have been quite different," he said.
"I'd like to mention that this list of 31 incidents is not supposed to be comprehensive. So, unfortunately, it cannot be divided by the total number of license holders to ascertain a percentage of wrongdoers. It's just not that simple."
ReplyDeleteMaybe your number is wrong by 100 times (which I doubt). Multiply your crimes by 100. With 5700 over 3 years you are still far less than 1% of CCW holders.
http://weerdbeard.livejournal.com/527841.html
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts on the bill
I'd like to mention that this list of 31 incidents is not supposed to be comprehensive. So, unfortunately, it cannot be divided by the total number of license holders to ascertain a percentage of wrongdoers. It's just not that simple.
ReplyDeleteOh, but it IS that simple. Let's assume their numbers are low and increase that tenfold. That's 310 incidences.
Per the Florida Division of Licensing there are currently ~585,000 CCW permit holders in that state alone.
I could multiply the 31 instances by 100 and it would still be statistically insignificant.
As third said, you're full of it.
MikeB, in his esteemed wisdom says "You've got a large problem on your hands."
ReplyDeleteLet's look at FL again.
From 10-1-87 - 6-30-09 there were
1,540,712 licenses issued. In that same time period there were a TOTAL of 167 REVOKED for a "crime after licensure involving a firearm.
Boy, 167 out of 1.5 MILLION. Sure sounds like we've got a large problem on our hands Mike!
Ah yes, the link for the above data
ReplyDeletehttp://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us
/stats/cw_monthly.html
Mike W.
ReplyDeleteObviously those numbers were doctored to make the FL authorities look better to their NRA masters. The numbers provided by paid anti-gun activists are much more authoritative.
"Imagine ... loaded, hidden handguns being carried nearly anywhere and everywhere, by anyone regardless of the law in your state."
ReplyDelete-Paul Helmke on reciprocity.
Still want to claim they're not lying?
Why no mention of all the CCW permit holders who come to the rescue of the police when they need assistance?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kc3.com/self_defense/officers_peril.htm
Just an honest over-sight?
Why do you continue to blog about guns when it should be obvious to you that your regular commentors are far more interested in a long dead TV show called the Brady Bunch.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite episode is when they visited Hawaii and got cursed for stealing artifacts.
Perhaps you should dump the whole gun control theme and instead focus on Alice's recipes?
After all, you've already aknowledged a severe intellectual lack in all things firearms related.
Here's your out...
Do you believe that George Washington was the first president of the United States?
Check your assumptions.
He was not.
And there's no such thing as poisonous snakes.
They don't exist.
You guys who mentioned the incidents of CCW holders using their guns to prevent crime or helping the cops are absolutely right. Those would need to be weighed against the problems. As always, the way I see it, guns cause more problems than they solve.
ReplyDeleteAnd about the percentages, I'll say the same thing I said about the gun trafficking into Mexico. The exact number isn't the point. The point is it's too much. These 31 incidents are merely examples of the countless problems that CCW holders have caused. It's too much.
So Mike, what percentage is "acceptable" to you?
ReplyDeleteName me one group of people who are perfect, 100% law-abiding 100% of the time.
31 out of hundreds of millions of people. Even assuming that number is inaccurate and increasing it by a factor of 100 what more do you want?
As we've repeatedly shown you, CCW holders are incredibly predisposed to be law-abiding.
I think you're just a bigot looking to smear gun owners. The numbers could be one violent crime per 1 million CCW holders and you'd still claim we are dangerous.
"As always, the way I see it, guns cause more problems than they solve."
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, you have never shown any objective evidence to show this. Sure you have posted about problems that guns "cause" (most all of your commenters would actually say they are caused by people, not an inanimate object), but you have not posted anything about problems guns "solve" (again, most commenters here would say that people solve problems, not an inanimate object).
So what is your opinion on other inanimate objects such as
knifes?
alcohol?
cars?
swimming pools?
oven cleaner?
stairs?
Don't these cause far more problems than they solve?
What's that MikeB? No comment on the hundreds of Illinois police officers (not political appointees) that want CCW in the state?
ReplyDeleteNo comment on Paul Helmke's blatant lie and fear mongering?
Mike, you say "it's too much."
ReplyDeleteWhat percentage is "acceptable" to you?
"When you consider the woundings as well as the brandishings and incidents of threatening behaviour which are sometimes done by armed men, even supposedly responsible ones, you've got a large problem on your hands."
ReplyDeleteWhat do we do about this problem?
http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2009/07/21/Cop-accused-of-pulling-gun-at-McDs/UPI-84271248207327/
Denying concealed carry reciprocity doesn't stop those who think they are above the law or those who ignore the law.
I think those two groups of people are a much bigger problem than those who are on average more law abiding.
Yes Mike, sometimes even licensed people commit crimes.
ReplyDelete"Former state trooper pleads guilty in aborted murder scheme"
http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/07/21/former-state-trooper-pleads-guilty-in-aborted-murder-scheme/?iref=werecommend
Is this incident "one too many?" Does it indicate that we should ban the police from using guns? If not, why does your reasoning not apply to this case?
Anonymous asked in reference to a policeman who went bad, "Is this incident "one too many?" Does it indicate that we should ban the police from using guns?"
ReplyDeleteNo, not all policemen, and not all gun owners either. But, somehow we need to identify the problem cases before they act. With cops this can be done with stricter psychological screening. With gun owners or CCW holders, maybe the same thing can work. Or, perhaps a severe diminishment in the total number of guns would have a proportional effect.
I don't know for sure what the best approach is, but I thank you for admitting that "sometimes even licensed people commit crimes."
Most of the pro-gun commenters around here seem to have the game plan of admitting nothing, never giving an inch. Thanks for being more honest than that.
mikeb,
ReplyDeletePlease cite one comment (just one) where any pro-gunner said that "licensed people don't commit crimes"? On the contrary, it is usually us that bring up the fact that the ones everyone trusts with guns (police) sometimes go bad.
How is psychological screening suppose to catch someone before the bad thing happens? The FBI and CIA give yearly lie detector tests to their agents and they still find spies among them that have been at it for years.
Do you apply the same logic to other rights? Do you support psychological screening before people are allowed to speak, become a minister, or run for office? There's no way that could become a corrupt system.
That's true. No post on here makes any claim remotely like the one you describe.
ReplyDeleteLooking over some old posts, I see a disturbing pattern in the debates, moderation, and reactions to the moderation. Whenever one side raises a topic potentially threatens the other position, the response is either to;
a) distort the argument. Thanks for a wonderful illustration of that just now, Mike. The pro-gun side does this by instantly switching from a utilitarian to a moral-principle argument, or vice-versa... or just spouting tired catchphrases.
b) question the motives of your opponents (url take uur gunz!' or 'you really just want to murder people and get away with it.')
See the old post about the florida SUV shooting for excellent examples.
or c) outright attacking your opponent to shut down the argument--a 'scorched earth retreat.' Mike doesn't tend to do this, but both the pro-gun and rarer anti-gun posters do.
Mike, I would suggest that--short of a radical change in structure--these discussions are likely to do nothing but cement the inconsistent and irrational opinions of the debaters, while convincing them that 'the other side' is disingenuous or evil.
With that said, good day to you all. I'm off to try to find some real debate so I can make up my mind on this subject.
Anonymous, Please don't go away so quickly. As you very rightly point out we have very polarized sides in the various arguments on this blog. But, is something wrong with that? Isn't that what we like? I know I do.
ReplyDeleteI've noticed many times the very things I'm accused of, the others are guilty of. I'm sure I do the same at times. But, I try to keep an eye on that kind of thing and keep it fair.
About your and Reputo's point that no one ever said all gun owners are law-abiding or no CCW holders ever commit crimes, I admit you're right. I was referring to the general attitude around here which seems to avoid admitting those things. It's sometimes very difficult for me to get some of these guys to admit to anything.