Sunday, January 15, 2012

Bad Judgment..........But We ARM Them?

"This is my rifle, this is my gun; 
  One is for fighting, one is for fun."
Rick Perry wants to minimize the disgraceful actions of marines caught on video urinating on the bodies of dead Taliban fighters, while we are in negotiations in Afghanistan to end the war there.

I don't believe that this kind of behavior has ever been acceptable in any of the conflicts in which our military has engaged.  Certainly there have been incidents in the past; some were more tolerated than others.  In the Vietnam War, it was common for the Vietnamese and the Viet Cong alike to be referred to by American soldiers by derogatory terms like Gooks, inferior human beings.

This is in the same dehumanizing that the right wing justifies towards others, towards those they see as different, those they see as not conforming, especially those who believe in other religions.  It is no different from Perry's fellow ultra-conservative religious right-winger, Michele Bachmann objecting to zero tolerance for bullying gay students on the grounds of that kind of bully is justified, even encouraged, by Christianity.  It is the same dehumanizing that we see the 2nd Amendment gun nuts use in calling the people they want to shoot Goblins.

Gooks.  Goblins. Fags. Rag heads. Different names, different people, but it's all the same hatred.  All of it dishonors us, all of that disrespect for other human beings shames us.  Shame on Perry for his stupidity about the Geneva convention; he clearly lacks the knowledge he needs to run for the office of President.  And shame on these American soldiers in Afghanistan; they should know better than to behave like this.  I'm sure he would find it unacceptable for Taliban fighters to do this to dead American soldiers.  These kids are criminals; these kids stupidly think that shooting people is entertaining, or that it signifies winning.  This isn't winning; this is losing. Their ignorance, their lack of humanity and lack of understanding of what makes people civilized jeopardizes their fellow soldiers, and our national security and foreign policy.

From the Guardian:
Four US marines identified by the military as the soldiers filmed urinating on corpses in Afghanistan are likely to face a court martial after an American military commander said such actions are a "grave breach" of the laws of war.
The Naval Criminal Investigation Service (NCIS) has interviewed two of the soldiers featured in the video laughing and making snide remarks as they urinated on the bloodied bodies of three Afghan men, who have not been identified. It is not clear if the men were members of the Taliban.
In attempt to dampen the growing diplomatic storm around the abuse, the commanders of US forces in Afghanistan on Friday ordered American troops to treat the bodies of killed enemies and civilians with "appropriate dignity and respect".
The soldiers were members of a sniper unit that completed a six-month tour of duty in Afghanistan's Helmund province in September and returned to Camp LeJuene in North Carolina where the video was passed around. The two others are believed to have left the military.
The nature of the charges are unclear although desecrating bodies is a crime under US military law and the Geneva conventions. 
The deputy commander of US forces in Afghanistan, lieutenant general Curtis Scaparrotti, said in a message to troops on Friday that "defiling, desecrating, mocking, photographing or filming for personal use insurgent dead constitutes a grave breach" of laws governing armed conflict. He said it also violates "basic standards of human decency, and can cause serious damage to relations with the Afghan government".
The US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, said she believed the men may be guilty of a war crime.
 and in an earlier Guardian article:
At least two of four US Marines shown in a video appearing to urinate on Taliban corpses have been identified, a Marine Corps official has told the BBC.

The BBC's Steve Kingstone says the official would not confirm the Marines' whereabouts, but reports suggested the unit involved was based at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina - a major military base.
US media reported that the unit belonged to the 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment.
Taliban spokesman Qari Yousuf Ahmadi told the BBC that this was not the first time Americans had carried out such a "wild action" and that Taliban attacks on the Americans would continue.
But a different Taliban spokesman, Zabihullah Mujahid, said the video "is not a political process, so the video will not harm our talks and prisoner exchange because they are at the preliminary stage".
However Arsala Rahmani, a senior member of the Afghan government's High Peace Council, told Reuters the video would "leave a very, very bad impact on peace efforts".

We are better than this; well, most of us are.

From MSNBC.com

Perry: Marines in video are 'kids,' not criminals

By
updated 2 hours 25 minutes ago
Republican presidential hopeful Rick Perry on Sunday accused the Obama administration of "over-the-top rhetoric" and "disdain for the military" in its condemnation of a video that purportedly shows four Marines urinating on corpses in Afghanistan.
Perry's comments put him at odds with Sen. John McCain, the top Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, who said the images could damage the war effort.
"The Marine Corps prides itself that we don't lower ourselves to the level of the enemy," McCain said when asked about Perry's position. "So it makes me sad more than anything else, because ... I can't tell you how wonderful these people (Marines) are. And it hurts their reputation and their image."
No one has been charged in the case, but officials in the U.S. and abroad have called for swift punishment of the four Marines. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said last week that he worried the video could be used by the Taliban to undermine peace talks.
A military criminal investigation and an internal Marine Corps review are under way. The Geneva Conventions forbid the desecration of the dead.
Texas Gov. Perry said the Marines involved should be reprimanded but not prosecuted on criminal charges.
"Obviously, 18-, 19-year-old kids make stupid mistakes all too often. And that's what's occurred here," Perry told CNN's "State of the Union."
He later added: "What's really disturbing to me is the kind of over-the-top rhetoric from this administration and their disdain for the military."
Later appearing on the same show, McCain said he disagreed.
"We're trying to win the hearts and minds" of the Afghanistan population, he said. "And when something like that comes up, it obviously harms that ability."

16 comments:

  1. When your brother, or your sister, or any member of your family has his head severed and the recorded incident is shared with the world, put your big girl panties on come talk to the rest of us.

    When you hold the blade of a knife to another human's throat, and pull that blade until that person can only gurgle up blood instead of speaking, you've resigned yourself from the human race.

    When you hold a freshly severed human head in your hand and rejoice in his death, you've secured your designation as a monster.

    Truly, there is no honor in desecrating a corps, but one can't control his emotions anymore than he can stop the sun from rising in the east or setting in the west.

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  2. 1. Rick Perry's campaign was effectively over before any voting began.

    2. The term, goblin, is different from the others that you named. Goblin refers to someone who has chosen to be an outlaw. The other terms refer to characteristics that are innate. In the case of race, they are largely meaningless, but in all of those innate cases, they cause no harm to others.

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  3. "When your brother, or your sister, or any member of your family has his head severed and the recorded incident is shared with the world, put your big girl panties on come talk to the rest of us."

    This has happened to any U.S. Marines or their families? Not fucking likely.

    "When you hold the blade of a knife to another human's throat, and pull that blade until that person can only gurgle up blood instead of speaking, you've resigned yourself from the human race."

    Umm, okay, assuming that's the case then that means that all the people who have been killed or had their inhuman bodies desecrated by U.S. Marines (or any soldiers, from any country) are throat slitting murderers? Citation is required for this claim.

    "When you hold a freshly severed human head in your hand and rejoice in his death, you've secured your designation as a monster."

    Again, you know of this being the case for thousands of people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan or maybe just tortured and degraded in U.S. administered detention facilities? More citations required.

    "Truly, there is no honor in desecrating a corps, but one can't control his emotions anymore than he can stop the sun from rising in the east or setting in the west."

    Thank you for confirming the best reason to keep assholez from having gunz--they can't control their emotions. I think I wanna frame that quote.

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  4. This:

    "goblin [ˈgɒblɪn]
    n
    (Myth & Legend / European Myth & Legend) (in folklore) a small grotesque supernatural creature, regarded as malevolent towards human beings
    [from Old French, from Middle High German kobolt; compare cobalt]"

    from here (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/goblin)

    doesn't really support Mr. Camp's assertion:

    "The term, goblin, is different from the others that you named. Goblin refers to someone who has chosen to be an outlaw."

    which is, frankly, fucking hilarious, given Mr. Camp's pedantic corrections of other's use of words that he says DO NOT MEAN what the unwashed and illiterate rabble THINK they mean.

    "The other terms refer to characteristics that are innate. In the case of race, they are largely meaningless, but in all of those innate cases, they cause no harm to others."

    "Gooks. Goblins. Fags. Rag heads. Different names, different people, but it's all the same hatred."

    Really? "Gook" is a meaningless term? "Fag" is a meaningless term? "Raghead" is a meaningless term. You don't see them as being emotionally charged, demeaning and pejorative in nature. You teach english to, I assume, a diverse student population. Do you refer to them as "niggers", "kikes", "spics", "wops" or some other "innate characteristic" when you are trying to differentiate between them because, well, wtf, the words do no harm?

    You're an amazingly clueless asshole,
    which characteristic does seem innate.

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  5. Democommie,

    O.K., "raghead" does refer to something that a person chooses, but the religion or culture being demeaned by that term doesn't deserve that treatment. However, race, genetically, has little meaning. Genetically, we are nearly indistinguishable from each other. That's the reason that one man was sufficient for the genome project. That's the reason that racial terms have little actual meaning, no matter what way people use them from time to time.

    If you ever pay attention to what I write, instead of what you believe that I wrote, you'd understand more.

    With regard to goblin, Tolkien used that as a synonym for the orcs in his books. We can discuss that at length, if you wish.

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  6. Is there a point to discussing Tolkein, other than it refers to someone not human?

    Why stop at Tolkein?

    He didn't invent goblins, after all.

    Don't limit your folklore too severely while you are trying to dehumanize other people.

    Give your lack of humanity full scope.
    (from the New World Encyclopedia)
    A goblin is a mythical creature of Germanic and British folklore, often believed to be the evil, or merely mischievous, opposite of the more benevolent faeries and spirits of lore. Like many such creatures, there is no single version of a goblin; the term is more generic

    and

    Traditional cultures throughout the world also have stories and beliefs about figures that share similarities with the European goblins. In Zimbabwe, one cause of a child being born with a disability is that a goblin called a "zvikwambo" may have impregnated the mother while she was sleeping. The mountain goblins of Japan, the tengu, which are in the form of either an old man who has a long nose and walks barefoot or a crow tengu having the wings, beak, and claws of a bird but the body of a man.

    and

    Sir Walter Scott, in his Letters on Demonology and Witchcraft, ascribed gnomes, kobolds, and goblins, along with Scottish bogles to all correspond with a caricature of the Sami people.

    While from a folkloric perspective their origin may not be known, there were mythological tales that recount it: One of the most popular origin stories for Goblins states that they originated in France, in a cleft of the Pyrenees, but left at some point in history, spreading throughout all of Europe.[


    Any version you select, YOU are the ones trying to deny the humanity of other people. That is a dangerous thing to do, and it pretty much never ends up well as it reflects on the person doing it.

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  7. Dog Gone Gauteau,

    You act as though I don't know what you just told me. Do you really imagine that I'm not aware of that? I said that I could discuss the subject at length, if needed. I chose not to do so. You get no points for going on at length about topics that are already understood.

    The goblins choose to outlaw and dehumanize themmselves, not good citizens. They choose their own behavior that makes them dangerous to innocent persons. My assessment of them is based on their behavior alone.

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  8. "That's the reason that racial terms have little actual meaning, no matter what way people use them from time to time."

    More Campianbullshit.

    Try calling an black NFL linebacker a "buck" or a "coon" or call someone like Tiger Woods a "Gook" and you'll find out in a heartbeat that those words have all sorts of meaning to those folks and none of it edifying.

    You seem to specialize in making genuinely stupid assertions and then trying to reframe your idiocy.

    "O.K., "raghead" does refer to something that a person chooses, but the religion or culture being demeaned by that term doesn't deserve that treatment."

    So, "Fags" is okay?

    What you wrote, you racist, homophobic KKKlown, is crystal clear. It's obvious that you don't understand your racism or homophobia--but, that's a different problem--and it's not up to us do more than point it out, and laugh.

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  9. Democommie,

    As I've pointed out before, you're incapable of understanding anything that rational people say. I'll try again, though, just in case I'm wrong.

    The racist and homophobic terms referred to here are fundamentally meaningless. They name no important aspect of a person's moral or intellectual character, and the characteristics that they do refer to are neither right nor wrong.

    To call someone a fag or a coon is merely an effort to be insulting or demeaning, and as far as I'm concerned, it's a failed effort, since it makes no valid criticism. That is not to say that such terms don't hurt. Of course they do. But they say nothing useful about the person being attacked.

    You do keep calling me racist and homophobic, despite all the many times that I've pointed out how I'm not. How I can be homophobic and support gay marriage at the same time is difficult to understand, for example. But then, you've shown me time and again that you refuse to comprehend the words of anyone who disagrees with you on any point.

    Dog Gone,

    On the subject of dehumanizing language, I wonder how you would characterize the words that you and Laci and Democommie use for my side of the main argument here. Goblin is unacceptable, but idiot, asswipe, asshole, fuckwit and other such sparkling insults are meant solely to further the discussion, I suppose.

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  10. Greg Camp:

    I'm not having any problem whatsoever understanding that you, like a lot of other reichwingers and gunzloonz, say that you're NOT racists and homophobes while using, casually, racist and homophobic slurs.

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  11. I am very sorry, but desecration of the dead is not something I am willing to endure. This opinion is not based in religion, but in reality. Nothing can be gained in war by desecrating the bodies of your enemies; this is not how hearts and minds are won.

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  12. democommie said...
    Greg Camp:

    I'm not having any problem whatsoever understanding that you, like a lot of other reichwingers and gunzloonz
    ----
    Um, can we all sing "kumbaya" during the obvious pot-and-kettle moment?

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  13. Someone's aiming, Lord, front sight press.
    Someone's aiming, Lord, kumbaya. . .

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  14. Um, can we all sing "kumbaya" during the obvious pot-and-kettle moment?

    January 17, 2012 5:24 AM'

    You'll need to expand on that.

    "Someone's aiming, Lord, front sight press.
    Someone's aiming, Lord, kumbaya. . ."

    This is your's, Greg Camp? a paraphrase with no attribution? plaigarism?

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  15. Democommie,

    Clearly you don't understand what plagiarism means. An obvious parody is not plagiarism, and I don't need to provide a citation when it's my original comment.

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  16. "Democommie,

    Clearly you don't understand what plagiarism means. An obvious parody is not plagiarism, and I don't need to provide a citation when it's my original comment."

    It's a parody? A parody of what, asshole? It's, obviously, not obvious what original quote it parodies. Or are you saying it's something you came up with, without reading something very similar, written by someone else?

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