AmmolandIt will prevent CW license holders from being charged with the crime of violating the “Open Carry” law because a concealed firearm, being legally carried, accidentally or inadvertently becomes visible to the sight of another person.
ANYTIME YOU CARRY CONCEALED, YOU ARE IN DANGER OF BEING ARRESTED, CHARGED AND PROSECUTED LIKE A CRIMINAL for violating the ban on open carry of firearms, if your gun is accidentally, unintentionally, briefly exposed to the sight of another person.Our attorneys tell us that the ONLY WAY to completely stop this abuse is to legally allow license holders to carry openly — then they cannot be charged with violation of the open carry ban no matter how brief the accidental and unintentional exposure.
Mike,
ReplyDeleteThis has been an ongoing problem in Florida for a number of years. Law enforcement was arresting and prosecuting for inadvertent exposure of a firearm. As I had mentioned in another thread. A perfect example of the government shooting itself in the foot (pun intended) by not exercising reasonableness.
Law enforcement even got a legislative hint in 2011 when momentary exposure was decriminalized in 2011. But they didn't take the hint, and now they will have to adjust to the most extreme of gun laws that I call "Minnesota carry", because it's the same as what Minnesota has had for about twelve years now. Yep, permit holders in Minnesota aren't required to conceal at all.
And of course, there are all the states out there that have permit less open carry and Constitutional carry. I'm afraid this is what happens when the legislative branch has to deal with a lack of reasonableness.
Crying because you gun loons can't/won't follow the law.
DeleteObviously law enforcement isn't recognizing the intent of the law and not being reasonable as Mike suggest will happen with poorly written laws. And apparently counting on that isn't working so well in Florida.
DeleteSo the proper way to fix this is to pass legislation to introduce some "common sense" into the law to avoid these problems in the future.
The law is clear. You gun loons refuse to follow the law. That's why you are criminals.
Delete"The law is clear. "
DeleteAnon, you are a perfect example of why laws need to be clearly and well written. Mike has suggested that we shouldn't worry about poorly written laws because common sense and reasonableness will prevail.
And I've supplied examples of how that hasn't been working in Florida, even after they passed a law making it quite clear that the intent was that momentary exposure, as long as it wasn't done as a threat was ok.
But we still see police officers refusing to use common sense in following the intent of the law and unreasonably taking advantage of whatever little discretion available to them. And as a result, the new proposed law will remove that discretion completely.
Minnesota wrote their carry permit law without the requirement to conceal to remove this potential abuse and it works just fine. And I'm sure the sky won't fall in Florida because of it either.
The law is being changed to make the law clearer since some people aren't understanding it. This is working the way it should.
"The law is clear. You gun loons refuse to follow the law. That's why you are criminals."
DeleteWell, Mike calls following the letter of the law being overly-scrupulous and unreasonable.
I don't believe people are being arrested and prosecuted for inadvertently showing their concealed weapons. I believe people who brandish or purposely show their guns to intimidate are being arrested and they claim it was an accident. It's just like all those supposed legitimate DGUs. The natural reaction is to lie about what really happened in order to get yourself out of a jam.
DeleteI believe people who brandish or purposely show their guns to intimidate are being arrested and they claim it was an accident.
DeleteYeah--belief without evidence is the hallmark of zealotry.
The natural reaction is to lie about what really happened in order to get yourself out of a jam.
I certainly have no doubt that that would be your "natural" reaction.
"I don't believe people are being arrested and prosecuted for inadvertently showing their concealed weapons."
Delete"When Hueris Mora came to us, we did what we always do when contacted by someone who is facing gun carry charges. We set about researching the charges and circumstances of the incident. Florida Carry only gets involved in these cases when good people face unjust charges because they choose to lawfully carry defensive arms."
"The car he was riding in the back seat of was stopped and everyone ordered out. As he got out, Hueris raised his hands and told the officer "I have a concealed carry license, and I have a gun on me." This is exactly what law enforcement asks that law-abiding concealed carriers do when stopped by police.
When he raised his hands above his head, his shirt rode up exposing his properly holstered handgun. The gun was only exposed because he raised his hands to surrender to the officer and inform him that he was armed. He was arrested and prosecuted months after SB234 was passed clarifying that "brief" exposure is not illegal. The officer and State Attorney used that subjective "briefly exposed" language and the requirement that a licensee be "carrying a firearm in a concealed manner" in to justify the arrest and prosecution.
The Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office must have also known that they were in an untenable position because they quickly agreed to take the possibility of jail time off the table. Removing the possibility of imprisonment was not an olive branch offered in the interest of justice, it was in fact a Trojan Horse. This underhanded move was their only way to keep prosecuting the case because it had the calculated effect of taking away Mr. Mora's public defender. Once the Assistant State Attorney prosecuting the case had effectively maneuvered to deprive Mr. Mora of legal counsel, an offer was made. An offer so common in Florida that it is considered the standard plea deal... "You can retake the concealed course to get your license to carry back but kiss your gun goodbye."
Hueris knew he was getting the shaft despite having done nothing wrong, so he did what nobody before in Florida (that we know of) had done. He didn't sign the deal. This was a brave decision despite having no legal help at that time."
"Every month we are contacted by other law-abiding people who have been confronted, detained, and threatened with arrest because they were lawfully carrying a firearm in Florida and it “printed” through clothing or became unconcealed."
http://www.floridacarry.org/flcinews/54-florida-gun-owners-still-face-arrest-and-prosecution-for-innocent-exposure-of-handguns
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if you or I from our distant locations believes its appropriate or not. However, the fact that such a bill is working its way through the maze of committees required for it to be voted on certainly shows that these occurrences are neither unknown or infrequent.
I'm certainly glad I live in a state where this cant become an issue since Minnesota has never had the requirement to conceal.
"I don't believe people are being arrested and prosecuted for inadvertently showing their concealed weapons."
DeleteYour rare examples / exceptions do little to disprove my point.
"Your rare examples / exceptions do little to disprove my point."
DeleteWhat you or I believe will have little bearing on events. This is just legislative tweaking of the law to address problems caused by law enforcement. And this is the second time they've had to address this problem. And if this bill passes into law, then it will stop being a problem at all. It works just fine up here.
From what I've been reading, providing it clears the various committees, it will come up for a vote in January.
Your rare examples / exceptions do little to disprove my point.
DeleteThey do everything to disprove your "point." You expressed your disbelief that "people are being arrested and prosecuted for inadvertently showing their concealed weapons." SSG showed you that it does indeed happen. Now, you break out your trusty portable (maybe self-propelled?) goalposts, and your "point" has apparently become that this disgusting, abusive injustice doesn't occur very often.
If such injustice occurs once, it is intolerable, and justice demands that whatever must be done to make absolutely positive that it never happens again becomes a moral imperative.
Undoubtedly Mike's committed stance of "NO ONE will ever be arrested for letting their friend handle their gun in Washington state" would be replaced with "your rare and anecdotal cases don't disprove me" if necessary.
DeleteI have absolutely zero doubt of that, TS.
Delete"reasonableness"
DeleteIs that like "common sense" you make jokes of when it comes from the other side?
"Is that like "common sense" you make jokes of when it comes from the other side? "
DeleteWhy yes Anon, you are correct. Mike recently said that we shouldn't concern ourselves about how poorly written a law is because law enforcement will use common sense and reasonableness in enforcement of the law.
And I brought up the Florida's proposed adoption of "Minnesota carry" as an example of law enforcement failing to exercise both, even after legislative clarification several years ago.
Relying on one branch of government to make up for the laziness of another not only negates checks and balances of our system of government, creates more work as demonstrated by this legislature having to revisit this issue twice now.