Showing posts with label Libertarian. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Libertarian. Show all posts
Thursday, January 30, 2014
This is too good to pass up.
OK, Kid, I'm not going to support you because you need to make your way in the world. Besides, who needs an expensive college education? Hell, why bother with an education anyway: where in the hell will that get you?
Friday, October 4, 2013
A Libertarian changes his mind on gun control
Michael Shermer, a monthly columnist for Scientific American, writes about when science conflicts with beliefs:
The funny thing is that Libertarians would like to see themselves as being reasonable, but they are unwilling to accept facts, even when given to them complete with citations. That makes it hard to argue with someone who parrots off a slogan thinking he has made a valid point, but they haven't really said much of anything of value.
more here
My libertarian beliefs have not always served me well. Like most people who hold strong ideological convictions, I find that, too often, my beliefs trump the scientific facts. This is called motivated reasoning, in which our brain reasons our way to supporting what we want to be true. Knowing about the existence of motivated reasoning, however, can help us overcome it when it is at odds with evidence.His experience of trying to talk reason to the unreasonable:
Take gun control. I always accepted the libertarian position of minimum regulation in the sale and use of firearms because I placed guns under the beneficial rubric of minimal restrictions on individuals. Then I read the science on guns and homicides, suicides and accidental shootings (summarized in my May column) and realized that the freedom for me to swing my arms ends at your nose. The libertarian belief in the rule of law and a potent police and military to protect our rights won’t work if the citizens of a nation are better armed but have no training and few restraints. Although the data to convince me that we need some gun-control measures were there all along, I had ignored them because they didn’t fit my creed. In several recent debates with economist John R. Lott, Jr., author of More Guns, Less Crime, I saw a reflection of my former self in the cherry picking and data mining of studies to suit ideological convictions. We all do it, and when the science is complicated, the confirmation bias (a type of motivated reasoning) that directs the mind to seek and find confirming facts and ignore disconfirming evidence kicks in.
The clash between scientific facts and ideologies was on display at the 2013 FreedomFest conference in Las Vegas—the largest gathering of libertarians in the world—where I participated in two debates, one on gun control and the other on climate change. I love FreedomFest because it supercharges my belief engine. But this year I was so discouraged by the rampant denial of science that I wanted to turn in my libertarian membership card. At the gun-control debate (as in my debates with Lott around the country), proposing even modest measures that would have almost no effect on freedom—such as background checks—brought on opprobrium as if I had burned a copy of the U.S. Constitution on stage. In the climate debate, when I showed that between 90 and 98 percent of climate scientists accept anthropogenic global warming, someone shouted, “LIAR!” and stormed out of the room.
The funny thing is that Libertarians would like to see themselves as being reasonable, but they are unwilling to accept facts, even when given to them complete with citations. That makes it hard to argue with someone who parrots off a slogan thinking he has made a valid point, but they haven't really said much of anything of value.
more here
Sunday, July 15, 2012
I was curious after my George Monbiot, you swine… post as to what George’s thoughts on libertarianism since we do share common beliefs. So, I did a search of his blog on the term libertarian and came up with subject headings such as:
Libertarians are the True Social Parasites
The Anti-Social Bastards in Our Midst
Yep, we are on the same page on libertarianism as well.
When it comes to the description of parasites, George should know since he is an Oxford educated zoologist. The concept that people will work well “if they can get government off our backs” is challenged by George in a case of what I call the ladder principle, which is where one uses the governmental system to prosper and then pulls the ladder up so that no one else can follow. In the case of one Libertarian, he was against government intrusion in the market, until his bank needed help!
The problem is that there needs to be some form of government, which libertarians decry as statism. But the government can be society at large. The libertarian prefers to not live within society’s norms. Of course, as Geoge Monbiot points out, libertarians are all too interested in using the system’s institutions against the system for their self-interest. For example, the Cato Institute used the Court system to rewrite the constitution in the Heller-McDonald cases. I am not sure what to think of the aspect that the Court did more than just interpret the constitution and the populace at large failed to notice that.
My personal experience of libertarians is that they are the ones who scream loudly of freedom, but do their best to intrude upon other’s freedom and security. Naturally, that comment would attract claims from the libertarian crowd that my support for gun control is “anti-liberty”. I counter that with among other things the fact that security checkpoints are common in US public buildings and people live in fear of being shot. Even more saliently, the Second Amendment was written to prevent a large military, not to ensure private arms outside the militia context.
MY impetus to write this is a response to a post at Daisy’s Dead Air where she mentions incest. My opinion is that she is confusing liberals and libertarians. My first encounter with libertarians was that a class mate had libertarian parents. The parents gave their kids pornography and tolerated behaviour which turned out to be the son molesting the daughter. I blame it on the libertarian dislike of the nanny state and calling incest a “victimless crime”.
In reading the Maclean’s article Daisy mentions, it sounds like the libertarian viewpoint. The first comment bears that out:
As opposed to “Statists” who believe in things such as laws…And conventions of society.
Likewise, as a Green, I have a strong distrust of libertarianism since it is a pro-industry viewpoint. They argue such things as global temperatures have scarcely increased, so we should stop worrying about climate change. They suggest that elephants should be hunted for their ivory, planning laws should be scrapped, recycling should be stopped, bosses should be free to choose whether or not their workers contract repetitive strain injury and companies, rather than governments, should be allowed to decide whether or not the food they sell is safe. They rage against taxes, subsidies, bail-outs and government regulation. Well, bail-outs to the point that the libertarian requires them–then they are acceptable.
I will end by quoting George:
“L’etat c’est moi”..et toi (vous?).
Libertarians are the True Social Parasites
The Anti-Social Bastards in Our Midst
Yep, we are on the same page on libertarianism as well.
When it comes to the description of parasites, George should know since he is an Oxford educated zoologist. The concept that people will work well “if they can get government off our backs” is challenged by George in a case of what I call the ladder principle, which is where one uses the governmental system to prosper and then pulls the ladder up so that no one else can follow. In the case of one Libertarian, he was against government intrusion in the market, until his bank needed help!
The problem is that there needs to be some form of government, which libertarians decry as statism. But the government can be society at large. The libertarian prefers to not live within society’s norms. Of course, as Geoge Monbiot points out, libertarians are all too interested in using the system’s institutions against the system for their self-interest. For example, the Cato Institute used the Court system to rewrite the constitution in the Heller-McDonald cases. I am not sure what to think of the aspect that the Court did more than just interpret the constitution and the populace at large failed to notice that.
My personal experience of libertarians is that they are the ones who scream loudly of freedom, but do their best to intrude upon other’s freedom and security. Naturally, that comment would attract claims from the libertarian crowd that my support for gun control is “anti-liberty”. I counter that with among other things the fact that security checkpoints are common in US public buildings and people live in fear of being shot. Even more saliently, the Second Amendment was written to prevent a large military, not to ensure private arms outside the militia context.
MY impetus to write this is a response to a post at Daisy’s Dead Air where she mentions incest. My opinion is that she is confusing liberals and libertarians. My first encounter with libertarians was that a class mate had libertarian parents. The parents gave their kids pornography and tolerated behaviour which turned out to be the son molesting the daughter. I blame it on the libertarian dislike of the nanny state and calling incest a “victimless crime”.
In reading the Maclean’s article Daisy mentions, it sounds like the libertarian viewpoint. The first comment bears that out:
I agree wholeheartedly with the commentator. I think is a clear example of government overreach. There is no reason to criminalize incest. There is no need to deter people from doing it, since most people are naturally repulsed by it.The article and the comments have that “intrusive government” aspect which is libertarianism.
As opposed to “Statists” who believe in things such as laws…And conventions of society.
Likewise, as a Green, I have a strong distrust of libertarianism since it is a pro-industry viewpoint. They argue such things as global temperatures have scarcely increased, so we should stop worrying about climate change. They suggest that elephants should be hunted for their ivory, planning laws should be scrapped, recycling should be stopped, bosses should be free to choose whether or not their workers contract repetitive strain injury and companies, rather than governments, should be allowed to decide whether or not the food they sell is safe. They rage against taxes, subsidies, bail-outs and government regulation. Well, bail-outs to the point that the libertarian requires them–then they are acceptable.
I will end by quoting George:
Wherever modern humans, living outside the narrow social mores of the clan, are allowed to pursue their genetic interests without constraint, they will hurt other people. They will grab other people’s resources, they will dump their waste in other people’s habitats, they will cheat, lie, steal and kill. And if they have power and weapons, no one will be able to stop them except those with more power and better weapons. Our genetic inheritance makes us smart enough to see that when the old society breaks down, we should appease those who are more powerful than ourselves, and exploit those who are less powerful. The survival strategies which once ensured cooperation among equals now ensure subservience to those who have broken the social contract.
The democratic challenge, which becomes ever more complex as the scale of human interactions increases, is to mimic the governance system of the small hominid troop. We need a state that rewards us for cooperating and punishes us for cheating and stealing. At the same time we must ensure that the state is also treated like a member of the hominid clan and punished when it acts against the common good. Human welfare, just as it was a million years ago, is guaranteed only by mutual scrutiny and regulation.
I doubt that libertarians would be able to sustain their beliefs in a place where the state has broken down. Unless tax-payers’ money and public services are available to repair the destruction it causes, libertarianism destroys people’s savings, wrecks their lives and trashes their environment. It is the belief system of the free-rider, who is perpetually subsidised by responsible citizens. As biologists we both know what this means. Self-serving as governments might be, the true social parasites are those who demand their dissolution.And add that in a democracy, the people ARE the government, which makes me even more suspicious of the libertarian dislike for “government” and “the State”.
“L’etat c’est moi”..et toi (vous?).
Friday, July 13, 2012
Since I mention The Fifty Cent Army
I thought I would repost from my blog:
George Monbiot, you swine…
You beat me to writing a piece on this topic and did it in a way that was really close to how I would have written the piece.George and I are pretty much in agreement about most things, which is the reason I titled this the way I did since it is jest that I am describing him as a swine (and I’m a dog). I guess great minds think alike. And I concede that George is much more plugged in, but his post Reclaim the Cyber-Commons is pretty close to something I’ve had sitting around as a draft. But I have to tell him his tag line:
Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it.is a little off in this case. I totally agree with him when he makes this point and would have started my post the same way:
Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
The weapon used by both state and corporate players is a technique known as astroturfing. An astroturf campaign is one that mimics spontaneous grassroots mobilisations, but which has in reality been organised. Anyone writing a comment piece in Mandarin critical of the Chinese government, for example, is likely to be bombarded with abuse by people purporting to be ordinary citizens, upset by the slurs against their country.
But many of them aren’t upset: they are members of the 50 Cent Party, so-called because one Chinese government agency pays 5 mao (half a yuan) for every post its tame commenters write. Teams of these sock-puppets are hired by party leaders to drown out critical voices and derail intelligent debates.George learned about online astroturfing in 2002, when the investigators Andy Rowell and Jonathan Matthews looked into a series of comments made by two people calling themselves Mary Murphy and Andura Smetacek. These two people had launched ferocious attacks, across several internet forums, against a scientist whose research suggested that Mexican corn had been widely contaminated by GM pollen. Rowell and Matthews found that one of the messages Mary Murphy had sent came from a domain owned by the Bivings Group, a PR company specialising in internet lobbying.
And anyone who blogs about unpopular topics such as Palestinian Rights or Gun Control knows, you will be inundated by comments challenging your beliefs. George points out that:
Reading comment threads on the Guardian’s sites and elsewhere on the web, two patterns jump out at me. The first is that discussions of issues in which there’s little money at stake tend to be a lot more civilised than debates about issues where companies stand to lose or gain
I'm with him...but I'm watching what I say when we're at dinner parites billions: such as climate change, public health and corporate tax avoidance. These are often characterised by amazing levels of abuse and disruption.
Articles about the environment are hit harder by such tactics than any others. I love debate, and I often wade into the threads beneath my columns. But it’s a depressing experience, as instead of contesting the issues I raise, many of those who disagree bombard me with infantile abuse, or just keep repeating a fiction, however often you discredit it. This ensures that an intelligent discussion is almost impossible – which appears to be the point.
The second pattern is the strong association between this tactic and a certain set of views: pro-corporate, anti-tax, anti-regulation. Both traditional conservatives and traditional progressives tend be more willing to discuss an issue than these right-wing libertarians, many of whom seek instead to shut down debate.
So what’s going on? I’m not suggesting that most of the people trying to derail these discussions are paid to do so, though I would be surprised if none were. I’m suggesting that some of the efforts to prevent intelligence from blooming seem to be organised, and that neither website hosts nor other commenters know how to respond.I have to admit that if I had written my piece on Astroturf, I would have also borrowed from George where he talks about the people who aren’t paid, but who are willing to shill for the PR firms that do the internet astroturfing by repeating their messages. They are the committed, although, I do wonder as to how many are truly concerned individuals since they rarely bother me after I started posting IP addresses! So, I am in agreement with you that the keyboard warriors who do post here are truly individual, but rare.
But, since you beat me to it, George, I’m going to borrow from you. Especially since you mention this:
For his film (Astro)Turf Wars, Taki Oldham secretly recorded a training session organised by a rightwing libertarian group called American Majority. The trainer, Austin James, was instructing Tea Party members on how to “manipulate the medium”. This is what he told them:
“Here’s what I do. I get on Amazon; I type in “Liberal Books”. I go through and I say “one star, one star, one star”. The flipside is you go to a conservative/ libertarian whatever, go to their products and give them five stars. … This is where your kids get information: Rotten Tomatoes, Flixster. These are places where you can rate movies. So when you type in “Movies on Healthcare”, I don’t want Michael Moore’s to come up, so I always give it bad ratings. I spend about 30 minutes a day, just click, click, click, click. … If there’s a place to comment, a place to rate, a place to share information, you have to do it. That’s how you control the online dialogue and give our ideas a fighting chance.”
Over 75% of the funding for American Majority, which hosted this training session, comes from the Sam Adams Alliance. In 2008, the year in which American Majority was founded, 88% of the alliance’s money came from a single donation, of $3.7m. A group which trains rightwing libertarians to distort online democratic processes, in other words, was set up with funding from a person or company with a very large wallet.I wish that George would allow for comments since I want to give him a hand for putting out something that I will admit is a much better version than what I had written. More importantly, I think that what George has written needs to be published so that more people are aware of how debate is being stifled: especially since he neglect subjects where this practise is widespread (non-inclusive list of where I add the issues of Palestinian rights, gun control to the ones George mentions).
George, this is the exception that proves the rule. So, a grudging thank you for telling me something I knew already and saving me a lot of work in actually writing it by beating me to the punch here. I hope you don’t mind me passing it on with my own comments.
OK, George, I borrowed from you. I hope that you will borrow from my post The Centre for Alternative Technology is in financial straits. After all, they are in your neck of the woods.
I think you can get the proper audience for that message.
See also:
Wednesday, July 11, 2012
102 Things NOT To Do If You Hate Taxes
By Stephen D. Foster Jr. from Addicting Info
So, you’re a Libertarian that hates taxes? Well, since you do not like taxes or government, please kindly do the following.
1. Do not use Medicare.
2. Do not use Social Security
3. Do not become a member of the US military, who are paid with tax dollars.
4. Do not ask the National Guard to help you after a disaster.
5. Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
6. Do not call the police to stop intruders in your home.
7. Do not summon the fire department to save your burning home.
8. Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
9. Do not use public restrooms.
10. Do not send your kids to public schools.
11. Do not put your trash out for city garbage collectors.
12. Do not live in areas with clean air.
13. Do not drink clean water.
14. Do not visit National Parks.
15. Do not visit public museums, zoos, and monuments.
16. Do not eat or use FDA inspected food and medicines.
17. Do not bring your kids to public playgrounds.
18. Do not walk or run on sidewalks.
19. Do not use public recreational facilities such as basketball and tennis courts.
20. Do not seek shelter facilities or food in soup kitchens when you are homeless and hungry.
21. Do not apply for educational or job training assistance when you lose your job.
22. Do not apply for food stamps when you can’t feed your children.
23. Do not use the judiciary system for any reason.
24. Do not ask for an attorney when you are arrested and do not ask for one to be assigned to you by the court.
25. Do not apply for any Pell Grants.
26. Do not use cures that were discovered by labs using federal dollars.
27. Do not fly on federally regulated airplanes.
28. Do not use any product that can trace its development back to NASA.
29. Do not watch the weather provided by the National Weather Service.
30. Do not listen to severe weather warnings from the National Weather Service.
31. Do not listen to tsunami, hurricane, or earthquake alert systems.
32. Do not apply for federal housing.
33. Do not use the internet, which was developed by the military.
34. Do not swim in clean rivers.
35. Do not allow your child to eat school lunches or breakfasts.
36. Do not ask for FEMA assistance when everything you own gets wiped out by disaster.
37. Do not ask the military to defend your life and home in the event of a foreign invasion.
38. Do not use your cell phone or home telephone.
39. Do not buy firearms that wouldn’t have been developed without the support of the US Government and military. That includes most of them.
40. Do not eat USDA inspected produce and meat.
41. Do not apply for government grants to start your own business.
42. Do not apply to win a government contract.
43. Do not buy any vehicle that has been inspected by government safety agencies.
44. Do not buy any product that is protected from poisons, toxins, etc…by the Consumer Protection Agency.
45. Do not save your money in a bank that is FDIC insured.
46. Do not use Veterans benefits or military health care.
47. Do not use the G.I. Bill to go to college.
48. Do not apply for unemployment benefits.
49. Do not use any electricity from companies regulated by the Department of Energy.
50. Do not live in homes that are built to code.
51. Do not run for public office. Politicians are paid with taxpayer dollars.
52. Do not ask for help from the FBI, S.W.A.T, the bomb squad, Homeland Security, State troopers, etc…
53. Do not apply for any government job whatsoever as all state and federal employees are paid with tax dollars.
54. Do not use public libraries (or work in one).
55. Do not use the US Postal Service.
56. Do not visit the National Archives.
57. Do not visit Presidential Libraries.
58. Do not use airports that are secured by the federal government.
59. Do not apply for loans from any bank that is FDIC insured.
60. Do not ask the government to help you clean up after a tornado.
61. Do not ask the Department of Agriculture to provide a subsidy to help you run your farm.
62. Do not take walks in National Forests.
63. Do not ask for taxpayer dollars for your oil company.
64. Do not ask the federal government to bail your company out during recessions.
65. Do not seek medical care from places that use federal dollars.
66. Do not use Medicaid.
67. Do not use WIC.
68. Do not use electricity generated by Hoover Dam.
69. Do not use electricity or any service provided by the Tennessee Valley Authority.
70. Do not ask the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild levees when they break.
71. Do not let the Coast Guard save you from drowning when your boat capsizes at sea.
72. Do not ask the government to help evacuate you when all hell breaks loose in the country you are in.
73. Do not visit historic landmarks.
74. Do not visit fisheries.
75. Do not expect to see animals that are federally protected because of the Endangered Species List.
76. Do not expect plows to clear roads of snow and ice so your kids can go to school and so you can get to work.
77. Do not hunt or camp on public land.
78. Do not work anywhere that has a safe workplace because of government regulations.
79. Do not use public transportation.
80. Do not drink water from public water fountains.
81. Do not whine when someone copies your work and sells it as their own. Government enforces copyright laws.
82. Do not expect to own your home, car, or boat. Government organizes and keeps all titles.
83. Do not expect convicted felons to remain off the streets.
84. Do not eat in restaurants that are regulated by food quality and safety standards.
85. Do not seek help from the US Embassy if you need assistance in a foreign nation.
86. Do not apply for a passport to travel outside of the United States.
87. Do not apply for a patent when you invent something.
88. Do not adopt a child through your local, state, or federal governments.
89.Do not use elevators that have been inspected by federal or state safety regulators.
90. Do not use any resource that was discovered by the USGS.
91. Do not ask for energy assistance from the government.
92. Do not move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are much higher.
93. Do not go to a beach that is kept clean by the state.
94. Do not use money printed by the US Treasury.
95. Do not complain when millions more illegal immigrants cross the border because there are no more border patrol agents.
96. Do not attend a state university.
97. Do not see any doctor that is licensed through the state.
98. Do not use any water from municipal water systems.
99. Do not complain when diseases and viruses, that were once fought around the globe by the US government and CDC, reach your house.
100. Do not work for any company that is required to pay its workers a livable wage, provide them sick days, vacation days, and benefits.
101. Do not expect to be able to vote on election days. Government provides voting booths, election day officials, and voting machines which are paid for with taxes.
102. Do not ride trains. The railroad was built with government financial assistance.
The fact is, we pay for the lifestyle we expect. Without taxes, our lifestyles would be totally different and much harder. America would be a third world country. The less we pay, the less we get in return. Americans pay less taxes today since 1958 and is ranked 32nd out of 34 of the top tax paying countries. Chile and Mexico are 33rd and 34th. The Republicans are lying when they say that we pay the highest taxes in the world and are only attacking taxes to reward corporations and the wealthy and to weaken our infrastructure and way of life. So next time you object to paying taxes or fight to abolish taxes for corporations and the wealthy, keep these quotes in mind…
- “I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.”
- "Taxes are the price we pay for civilisation" ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
Monday, January 16, 2012
Friday, November 11, 2011
Are you really a Libertarian?
While I am the first to say I dislike libertarianism, I have to agree with Bryan Caplan that the Libertarian Purity Test is both better and more honest than the "World's Shortest Political Quiz". The states the questions with any intent to show the test taker has libertarian tendencies--although I did get a 14 on Mr. Caplan's test which means "You are starting to have libertarian leanings. Explore them."
I have no libertarian leanings whatsoever with an 8% score (14/160) on this test! In fact, I dislike the libertarian ideology intensively, which Mr.Caplan's test actually highlights.
There is a much more accurate test at the political compass. Although, I still question that one's accuracy.
The major problem is the nebulous political philosophy called Libertarianism tries to lure everyone into believing they are libertarian. Mr.Caplan's test is far more honest in that it makes it clear what Libertarianism believes.
Once one knows that libertarianism works to destroy the institutions that allow society to function, it becomes clear that Libertarianism is antithetical to most social systems.
I have no libertarian leanings whatsoever with an 8% score (14/160) on this test! In fact, I dislike the libertarian ideology intensively, which Mr.Caplan's test actually highlights.
There is a much more accurate test at the political compass. Although, I still question that one's accuracy.
The major problem is the nebulous political philosophy called Libertarianism tries to lure everyone into believing they are libertarian. Mr.Caplan's test is far more honest in that it makes it clear what Libertarianism believes.
Once one knows that libertarianism works to destroy the institutions that allow society to function, it becomes clear that Libertarianism is antithetical to most social systems.
Wednesday, November 9, 2011
Thursday, September 1, 2011
102 Things NOT To Do If You Hate Taxes
By Stephen D. Foster Jr. from Addicting Info
So, you’re a Libertarian that hates taxes? Well, since you do not like taxes or government, please kindly do the following.
1. Do not use Medicare.
2. Do not use Social Security
3. Do not become a member of the US military, who are paid with tax dollars.
4. Do not ask the National Guard to help you after a disaster.
5. Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
6. Do not call the police to stop intruders in your home.
7. Do not summon the fire department to save your burning home.
8. Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
9. Do not use public restrooms.
10. Do not send your kids to public schools.
11. Do not put your trash out for city garbage collectors.
12. Do not live in areas with clean air.
13. Do not drink clean water.
14. Do not visit National Parks.
15. Do not visit public museums, zoos, and monuments.
16. Do not eat or use FDA inspected food and medicines.
17. Do not bring your kids to public playgrounds.
18. Do not walk or run on sidewalks.
19. Do not use public recreational facilities such as basketball and tennis courts.
20. Do not seek shelter facilities or food in soup kitchens when you are homeless and hungry.
21. Do not apply for educational or job training assistance when you lose your job.
22. Do not apply for food stamps when you can’t feed your children.
23. Do not use the judiciary system for any reason.
24. Do not ask for an attorney when you are arrested and do not ask for one to be assigned to you by the court.
25. Do not apply for any Pell Grants.
26. Do not use cures that were discovered by labs using federal dollars.
27. Do not fly on federally regulated airplanes.
28. Do not use any product that can trace its development back to NASA.
29. Do not watch the weather provided by the National Weather Service.
30. Do not listen to severe weather warnings from the National Weather Service.
31. Do not listen to tsunami, hurricane, or earthquake alert systems.
32. Do not apply for federal housing.
33. Do not use the internet, which was developed by the military.
34. Do not swim in clean rivers.
35. Do not allow your child to eat school lunches or breakfasts.
36. Do not ask for FEMA assistance when everything you own gets wiped out by disaster.
37. Do not ask the military to defend your life and home in the event of a foreign invasion.
38. Do not use your cell phone or home telephone.
39. Do not buy firearms that wouldn’t have been developed without the support of the US Government and military. That includes most of them.
40. Do not eat USDA inspected produce and meat.
41. Do not apply for government grants to start your own business.
42. Do not apply to win a government contract.
43. Do not buy any vehicle that has been inspected by government safety agencies.
44. Do not buy any product that is protected from poisons, toxins, etc…by the Consumer Protection Agency.
45. Do not save your money in a bank that is FDIC insured.
46. Do not use Veterans benefits or military health care.
47. Do not use the G.I. Bill to go to college.
48. Do not apply for unemployment benefits.
49. Do not use any electricity from companies regulated by the Department of Energy.
50. Do not live in homes that are built to code.
51. Do not run for public office. Politicians are paid with taxpayer dollars.
52. Do not ask for help from the FBI, S.W.A.T, the bomb squad, Homeland Security, State troopers, etc…
53. Do not apply for any government job whatsoever as all state and federal employees are paid with tax dollars.
54. Do not use public libraries (or work in one).
55. Do not use the US Postal Service.
56. Do not visit the National Archives.
57. Do not visit Presidential Libraries.
58. Do not use airports that are secured by the federal government.
59. Do not apply for loans from any bank that is FDIC insured.
60. Do not ask the government to help you clean up after a tornado.
61. Do not ask the Department of Agriculture to provide a subsidy to help you run your farm.
62. Do not take walks in National Forests.
63. Do not ask for taxpayer dollars for your oil company.
64. Do not ask the federal government to bail your company out during recessions.
65. Do not seek medical care from places that use federal dollars.
66. Do not use Medicaid.
67. Do not use WIC.
68. Do not use electricity generated by Hoover Dam.
69. Do not use electricity or any service provided by the Tennessee Valley Authority.
70. Do not ask the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild levees when they break.
71. Do not let the Coast Guard save you from drowning when your boat capsizes at sea.
72. Do not ask the government to help evacuate you when all hell breaks loose in the country you are in.
73. Do not visit historic landmarks.
74. Do not visit fisheries.
75. Do not expect to see animals that are federally protected because of the Endangered Species List.
76. Do not expect plows to clear roads of snow and ice so your kids can go to school and so you can get to work.
77. Do not hunt or camp on public land.
78. Do not work anywhere that has a safe workplace because of government regulations.
79. Do not use public transportation.
80. Do not drink water from public water fountains.
81. Do not whine when someone copies your work and sells it as their own. Government enforces copyright laws.
82. Do not expect to own your home, car, or boat. Government organizes and keeps all titles.
83. Do not expect convicted felons to remain off the streets.
84. Do not eat in restaurants that are regulated by food quality and safety standards.
85. Do not seek help from the US Embassy if you need assistance in a foreign nation.
86. Do not apply for a passport to travel outside of the United States.
87. Do not apply for a patent when you invent something.
88. Do not adopt a child through your local, state, or federal governments.
89.Do not use elevators that have been inspected by federal or state safety regulators.
90. Do not use any resource that was discovered by the USGS.
91. Do not ask for energy assistance from the government.
92. Do not move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are much higher.
93. Do not go to a beach that is kept clean by the state.
94. Do not use money printed by the US Treasury.
95. Do not complain when millions more illegal immigrants cross the border because there are no more border patrol agents.
96. Do not attend a state university.
97. Do not see any doctor that is licensed through the state.
98. Do not use any water from municipal water systems.
99. Do not complain when diseases and viruses, that were once fought around the globe by the US government and CDC, reach your house.
100. Do not work for any company that is required to pay its workers a livable wage, provide them sick days, vacation days, and benefits.
101. Do not expect to be able to vote on election days. Government provides voting booths, election day officials, and voting machines which are paid for with taxes.
102. Do not ride trains. The railroad was built with government financial assistance.
The fact is, we pay for the lifestyle we expect. Without taxes, our lifestyles would be totally different and much harder. America would be a third world country. The less we pay, the less we get in return. Americans pay less taxes today since 1958 and is ranked 32nd out of 34 of the top tax paying countries. Chile and Mexico are 33rd and 34th. The Republicans are lying when they say that we pay the highest taxes in the world and are only attacking taxes to reward corporations and the wealthy and to weaken our infrastructure and way of life. So next time you object to paying taxes or fight to abolish taxes for corporations and the wealthy, keep these quotes in mind…
“I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.”
"Taxes are the price we pay for civilisation" ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
So, you’re a Libertarian that hates taxes? Well, since you do not like taxes or government, please kindly do the following.
1. Do not use Medicare.
2. Do not use Social Security
3. Do not become a member of the US military, who are paid with tax dollars.
4. Do not ask the National Guard to help you after a disaster.
5. Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
6. Do not call the police to stop intruders in your home.
7. Do not summon the fire department to save your burning home.
8. Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
9. Do not use public restrooms.
10. Do not send your kids to public schools.
11. Do not put your trash out for city garbage collectors.
12. Do not live in areas with clean air.
13. Do not drink clean water.
14. Do not visit National Parks.
15. Do not visit public museums, zoos, and monuments.
16. Do not eat or use FDA inspected food and medicines.
17. Do not bring your kids to public playgrounds.
18. Do not walk or run on sidewalks.
19. Do not use public recreational facilities such as basketball and tennis courts.
20. Do not seek shelter facilities or food in soup kitchens when you are homeless and hungry.
21. Do not apply for educational or job training assistance when you lose your job.
22. Do not apply for food stamps when you can’t feed your children.
23. Do not use the judiciary system for any reason.
24. Do not ask for an attorney when you are arrested and do not ask for one to be assigned to you by the court.
25. Do not apply for any Pell Grants.
26. Do not use cures that were discovered by labs using federal dollars.
27. Do not fly on federally regulated airplanes.
28. Do not use any product that can trace its development back to NASA.
29. Do not watch the weather provided by the National Weather Service.
30. Do not listen to severe weather warnings from the National Weather Service.
31. Do not listen to tsunami, hurricane, or earthquake alert systems.
32. Do not apply for federal housing.
33. Do not use the internet, which was developed by the military.
34. Do not swim in clean rivers.
35. Do not allow your child to eat school lunches or breakfasts.
36. Do not ask for FEMA assistance when everything you own gets wiped out by disaster.
37. Do not ask the military to defend your life and home in the event of a foreign invasion.
38. Do not use your cell phone or home telephone.
39. Do not buy firearms that wouldn’t have been developed without the support of the US Government and military. That includes most of them.
40. Do not eat USDA inspected produce and meat.
41. Do not apply for government grants to start your own business.
42. Do not apply to win a government contract.
43. Do not buy any vehicle that has been inspected by government safety agencies.
44. Do not buy any product that is protected from poisons, toxins, etc…by the Consumer Protection Agency.
45. Do not save your money in a bank that is FDIC insured.
46. Do not use Veterans benefits or military health care.
47. Do not use the G.I. Bill to go to college.
48. Do not apply for unemployment benefits.
49. Do not use any electricity from companies regulated by the Department of Energy.
50. Do not live in homes that are built to code.
51. Do not run for public office. Politicians are paid with taxpayer dollars.
52. Do not ask for help from the FBI, S.W.A.T, the bomb squad, Homeland Security, State troopers, etc…
53. Do not apply for any government job whatsoever as all state and federal employees are paid with tax dollars.
54. Do not use public libraries (or work in one).
55. Do not use the US Postal Service.
56. Do not visit the National Archives.
57. Do not visit Presidential Libraries.
58. Do not use airports that are secured by the federal government.
59. Do not apply for loans from any bank that is FDIC insured.
60. Do not ask the government to help you clean up after a tornado.
61. Do not ask the Department of Agriculture to provide a subsidy to help you run your farm.
62. Do not take walks in National Forests.
63. Do not ask for taxpayer dollars for your oil company.
64. Do not ask the federal government to bail your company out during recessions.
65. Do not seek medical care from places that use federal dollars.
66. Do not use Medicaid.
67. Do not use WIC.
68. Do not use electricity generated by Hoover Dam.
69. Do not use electricity or any service provided by the Tennessee Valley Authority.
70. Do not ask the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild levees when they break.
71. Do not let the Coast Guard save you from drowning when your boat capsizes at sea.
72. Do not ask the government to help evacuate you when all hell breaks loose in the country you are in.
73. Do not visit historic landmarks.
74. Do not visit fisheries.
75. Do not expect to see animals that are federally protected because of the Endangered Species List.
76. Do not expect plows to clear roads of snow and ice so your kids can go to school and so you can get to work.
77. Do not hunt or camp on public land.
78. Do not work anywhere that has a safe workplace because of government regulations.
79. Do not use public transportation.
80. Do not drink water from public water fountains.
81. Do not whine when someone copies your work and sells it as their own. Government enforces copyright laws.
82. Do not expect to own your home, car, or boat. Government organizes and keeps all titles.
83. Do not expect convicted felons to remain off the streets.
84. Do not eat in restaurants that are regulated by food quality and safety standards.
85. Do not seek help from the US Embassy if you need assistance in a foreign nation.
86. Do not apply for a passport to travel outside of the United States.
87. Do not apply for a patent when you invent something.
88. Do not adopt a child through your local, state, or federal governments.
89.Do not use elevators that have been inspected by federal or state safety regulators.
90. Do not use any resource that was discovered by the USGS.
91. Do not ask for energy assistance from the government.
92. Do not move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are much higher.
93. Do not go to a beach that is kept clean by the state.
94. Do not use money printed by the US Treasury.
95. Do not complain when millions more illegal immigrants cross the border because there are no more border patrol agents.
96. Do not attend a state university.
97. Do not see any doctor that is licensed through the state.
98. Do not use any water from municipal water systems.
99. Do not complain when diseases and viruses, that were once fought around the globe by the US government and CDC, reach your house.
100. Do not work for any company that is required to pay its workers a livable wage, provide them sick days, vacation days, and benefits.
101. Do not expect to be able to vote on election days. Government provides voting booths, election day officials, and voting machines which are paid for with taxes.
102. Do not ride trains. The railroad was built with government financial assistance.
The fact is, we pay for the lifestyle we expect. Without taxes, our lifestyles would be totally different and much harder. America would be a third world country. The less we pay, the less we get in return. Americans pay less taxes today since 1958 and is ranked 32nd out of 34 of the top tax paying countries. Chile and Mexico are 33rd and 34th. The Republicans are lying when they say that we pay the highest taxes in the world and are only attacking taxes to reward corporations and the wealthy and to weaken our infrastructure and way of life. So next time you object to paying taxes or fight to abolish taxes for corporations and the wealthy, keep these quotes in mind…
“I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.”
"Taxes are the price we pay for civilisation" ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
Wednesday, August 31, 2011
Astroturf
A while back, I had a post that I had sitting around as a draft on this topic. Then George Monbiot wrote a piece on the topic in a way that was really close to how I would have written the piece.
George and I are pretty much in agreement about most things. I guess great minds think alike. And I concede that George is much more plugged in, but his post Reclaim the Cyber-Commons is pretty close to something I've had sitting around as a draft. But I have to tell him his tag line:
George learned about online astroturfing in 2002, when the investigators Andy Rowell and Jonathan Matthews looked into a series of comments made by two people calling themselves Mary Murphy and Andura Smetacek. These two people had launched ferocious attacks, across several internet forums, against a scientist whose research suggested that Mexican corn had been widely contaminated by GM pollen. Rowell and Matthews found that one of the messages Mary Murphy had sent came from a domain owned by the Bivings Group, a PR company specialising in internet lobbying.
And anyone who blogs about unpopular topics such as Palestinian Rights or Gun Control knows, you will be inundated by comments challenging your beliefs. George points out that:
I have to admit that if I had written my piece on Astroturf, I would have also borrowed from George where he talks about the people who aren't paid, but who are willing to shill for the PR firms that do the internet astroturfing by repeating their messages. They are the committed, although, I do wonder as to how many are truly concerned individuals since they rarely bother me after I started posting IP addresses! So, I am in agreement with you that the keyboard warriors who do post here are truly individual, but rare.
But, since you beat me to it, George, I'm going to borrow from you. Especially since you mention this:
I wish that George would allow for comments since I want to give him a hand for putting out something that I will admit is a much better version than what I had written. More importantly, I think that what George has written needs to be published so that more people are aware of how debate is being stifled: especially since he neglect subjects where this practise is widespread (non-inclusive list of where I add the issues of Palestinian rights, gun control to the ones George mentions).
George, this is the exception that proves the rule. So, a grudging thank you for telling me something I knew already and saving me a lot of work in actually writing it by beating me to the punch here. I hope you don't mind me passing it on with my own comments (he doesn't).
OK, George, I borrowed from you. I hope that you will borrow from my post The Centre for Alternative Technology is in financial straits. After all, they are in your neck of the woods.
I think you can get the proper audience for that message.
See also:
George and I are pretty much in agreement about most things. I guess great minds think alike. And I concede that George is much more plugged in, but his post Reclaim the Cyber-Commons is pretty close to something I've had sitting around as a draft. But I have to tell him his tag line:
Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it.is a little off in this case. I totally agree with him when he makes this point and would have started my post the same way:
Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
The weapon used by both state and corporate players is a technique known as astroturfing. An astroturf campaign is one that mimics spontaneous grassroots mobilisations, but which has in reality been organised. Anyone writing a comment piece in Mandarin critical of the Chinese government, for example, is likely to be bombarded with abuse by people purporting to be ordinary citizens, upset by the slurs against their country.
But many of them aren’t upset: they are members of the 50 Cent Party, so-called because one Chinese government agency pays 5 mao (half a yuan) for every post its tame commenters write. Teams of these sock-puppets are hired by party leaders to drown out critical voices and derail intelligent debates.
George learned about online astroturfing in 2002, when the investigators Andy Rowell and Jonathan Matthews looked into a series of comments made by two people calling themselves Mary Murphy and Andura Smetacek. These two people had launched ferocious attacks, across several internet forums, against a scientist whose research suggested that Mexican corn had been widely contaminated by GM pollen. Rowell and Matthews found that one of the messages Mary Murphy had sent came from a domain owned by the Bivings Group, a PR company specialising in internet lobbying.
And anyone who blogs about unpopular topics such as Palestinian Rights or Gun Control knows, you will be inundated by comments challenging your beliefs. George points out that:
Reading comment threads on the Guardian’s sites and elsewhere on the web, two patterns jump out at me. The first is that discussions of issues in which there’s little money at stake tend to be a lot more civilised than debates about issues where companies stand to lose or gain
billions: such as climate change, public health and corporate tax avoidance. These are often characterised by amazing levels of abuse and disruption.
Articles about the environment are hit harder by such tactics than any others. I love debate, and I often wade into the threads beneath my columns. But it’s a depressing experience, as instead of contesting the issues I raise, many of those who disagree bombard me with infantile abuse, or just keep repeating a fiction, however often you discredit it. This ensures that an intelligent discussion is almost impossible - which appears to be the point.
The second pattern is the strong association between this tactic and a certain set of views: pro-corporate, anti-tax, anti-regulation. Both traditional conservatives and traditional progressives tend be more willing to discuss an issue than these right-wing libertarians, many of whom seek instead to shut down debate.
So what’s going on? I’m not suggesting that most of the people trying to derail these discussions are paid to do so, though I would be surprised if none were. I’m suggesting that some of the efforts to prevent intelligence from blooming seem to be organised, and that neither website hosts nor other commenters know how to respond.
I have to admit that if I had written my piece on Astroturf, I would have also borrowed from George where he talks about the people who aren't paid, but who are willing to shill for the PR firms that do the internet astroturfing by repeating their messages. They are the committed, although, I do wonder as to how many are truly concerned individuals since they rarely bother me after I started posting IP addresses! So, I am in agreement with you that the keyboard warriors who do post here are truly individual, but rare.
But, since you beat me to it, George, I'm going to borrow from you. Especially since you mention this:
For his film (Astro)Turf Wars, Taki Oldham secretly recorded a training session organised by a rightwing libertarian group called American Majority. The trainer, Austin James, was instructing Tea Party members on how to “manipulate the medium”. This is what he told them:
“Here’s what I do. I get on Amazon; I type in “Liberal Books”. I go through and I say “one star, one star, one star”. The flipside is you go to a conservative/ libertarian whatever, go to their products and give them five stars. … This is where your kids get information: Rotten Tomatoes, Flixster. These are places where you can rate movies. So when you type in “Movies on Healthcare”, I don’t want Michael Moore’s to come up, so I always give it bad ratings. I spend about 30 minutes a day, just click, click, click, click. … If there’s a place to comment, a place to rate, a place to share information, you have to do it. That’s how you control the online dialogue and give our ideas a fighting chance.”
Over 75% of the funding for American Majority, which hosted this training session, comes from the Sam Adams Alliance. In 2008, the year in which American Majority was founded, 88% of the alliance’s money came from a single donation, of $3.7m. A group which trains rightwing libertarians to distort online democratic processes, in other words, was set up with funding from a person or company with a very large wallet.
I wish that George would allow for comments since I want to give him a hand for putting out something that I will admit is a much better version than what I had written. More importantly, I think that what George has written needs to be published so that more people are aware of how debate is being stifled: especially since he neglect subjects where this practise is widespread (non-inclusive list of where I add the issues of Palestinian rights, gun control to the ones George mentions).
George, this is the exception that proves the rule. So, a grudging thank you for telling me something I knew already and saving me a lot of work in actually writing it by beating me to the punch here. I hope you don't mind me passing it on with my own comments (he doesn't).
OK, George, I borrowed from you. I hope that you will borrow from my post The Centre for Alternative Technology is in financial straits. After all, they are in your neck of the woods.
I think you can get the proper audience for that message.
See also:
Friday, August 26, 2011
Who is Paul Treanor anyway?
I found Paul Treanor while trying to find critiques of Libertarianism. This was at the time when Ron Paul's face was plastering the internet on both sides of the issue. That makes sense since Libertarians aren't sure either!
I liked it when one Ron Paul supporter decried his opponents as Libertarians!
Which leads to the fact that I have always had a dislike for Libertarianism which has been made stronger since there is no real definition of the ideology: it can range from minarchist to openly anarchist. Of course, this is a right wing anarchy where large corporations can dump toxins into the drinking water in order to sell bottled water. These are the folks who will keep you perpetually in debt in the name of a free market.
This diversity of libertarian viewpoints can make it quite difficult to have a coherent discussion about it, because an argument that is valid for or against one type of libertarianism may not apply to other types.
It is very hard to find any literature about libertarianism that was NOT written by its advocates. This isolation from normal political discourse makes it difficult to evaluate libertarian claims without much more research or analysis than most of us have time.
Many libertarian arguments are like fundamentalist arguments: they depend upon restricting your attention to a very narrow field so that you will not notice that they fail outside of that field. For example, fundamentalists like to restrict the argument to the bible. Libertarians like to restrict the argument to their notions of economics, justice, history, and rights and their misrepresentations of government and contracts.
Widen the scope, and their questionable assumptions leap into view. Why should I accept that "right" as a given? Is that a fact around the world, not just in the US? Are there counter examples for that idea? Are libertarians serving their own class interest only? Is that economic argument complete, or are there other critical factors or strategies which have been omitted? When they make a historical argument, can we find current real-world counterexamples? If we adopt this libertarian policy, there will be benefits: but what will the disadvantages be? Are libertarians reinventing what we already have, only without safeguards?
Interesting that this subject is now turning toward rights, especially since Paul Treanor's comments on rights form a basis for my comments in my Rights post. Indeed, most of the libertarian concepts are bastard progeny of the arguments that led to the American War for Independence: in particular the concept of government by consent. Despite propaganda to the contrary, that is not a conservative idea, but a liberal one. Conservativism, by its nature believes in slow and calculated change rather than a radical shakeup of the system.
Anyway, I find Paul Treanor to be interesting from a myriad of reasons especially since we share an interest in Urban, environment, planning. Besides, I like the way the man thinks.
To bad he is next to impossible to locate!
I liked it when one Ron Paul supporter decried his opponents as Libertarians!
Which leads to the fact that I have always had a dislike for Libertarianism which has been made stronger since there is no real definition of the ideology: it can range from minarchist to openly anarchist. Of course, this is a right wing anarchy where large corporations can dump toxins into the drinking water in order to sell bottled water. These are the folks who will keep you perpetually in debt in the name of a free market.
This diversity of libertarian viewpoints can make it quite difficult to have a coherent discussion about it, because an argument that is valid for or against one type of libertarianism may not apply to other types.
It is very hard to find any literature about libertarianism that was NOT written by its advocates. This isolation from normal political discourse makes it difficult to evaluate libertarian claims without much more research or analysis than most of us have time.
Many libertarian arguments are like fundamentalist arguments: they depend upon restricting your attention to a very narrow field so that you will not notice that they fail outside of that field. For example, fundamentalists like to restrict the argument to the bible. Libertarians like to restrict the argument to their notions of economics, justice, history, and rights and their misrepresentations of government and contracts.
Widen the scope, and their questionable assumptions leap into view. Why should I accept that "right" as a given? Is that a fact around the world, not just in the US? Are there counter examples for that idea? Are libertarians serving their own class interest only? Is that economic argument complete, or are there other critical factors or strategies which have been omitted? When they make a historical argument, can we find current real-world counterexamples? If we adopt this libertarian policy, there will be benefits: but what will the disadvantages be? Are libertarians reinventing what we already have, only without safeguards?
Interesting that this subject is now turning toward rights, especially since Paul Treanor's comments on rights form a basis for my comments in my Rights post. Indeed, most of the libertarian concepts are bastard progeny of the arguments that led to the American War for Independence: in particular the concept of government by consent. Despite propaganda to the contrary, that is not a conservative idea, but a liberal one. Conservativism, by its nature believes in slow and calculated change rather than a radical shakeup of the system.
Anyway, I find Paul Treanor to be interesting from a myriad of reasons especially since we share an interest in Urban, environment, planning. Besides, I like the way the man thinks.
To bad he is next to impossible to locate!
Thursday, August 25, 2011
More Libertarian or Anarchy
Is it patriotic to wish for and work for the dissolution of government?
Yet it is a theme that is stated loudly and clearly at Tea Party rallies and GOP candidates' speeches. These are sentiments we are hearing from so-called "conservatives":
- The government is evil.
- The government is bad.
- The government is our enemy.
That's the type of thing that Anarchists say. Anarchists hate statism and want to smash the State.
Is this really Conservativism, or is something far more sinister going on?
Wednesday, August 24, 2011
Libertarian or Anarchist?
Libertarian or Anarchist? from Chaospark with an editorial change.
Libertarians are often accused of being anarchists or asked what the difference is between a libertarian and an anarchist. The popular image of anarchy is unrestrained violence and looting. Libertarians take a stronger stand against violence and looting than any other political group including republicans and democrats. The early history of the United States with its severely limited government was strongly libertarian and completely different from this image of anarchy.
The misunderstanding on this issue comes from the ideal state of peace and productivity with no government interference imagined by many libertarians who forget that we are the only ones who can imagine it . In a libertarian society the evolution of voluntary institutions providing the few remaining government services might lead to the gradual elimination of government but this scenario is completely beyond the imagination of the general public and it harms our cause to confront them with such a startling vision. (ed.: probably the reason only libertarians can imagine this is because the libertarian ideal is as unrealistic as the anarchist one)
Here is a menu of answers to the question: What's the difference between libertarians and anarchists?
The traditional answer
Libertarians want severely limited government and anarchists want none.
The humanist answer
Libertarians are nonviolent; some anarchists are violent.
The funny answer
Libertarians are to anarchists as nudists are to naked people.They're just middle class & organized so they appear less crazy.
The Party answer (from Andre Marrou)
An anarchist is an extreme libertarian, like a socialist is an extreme democrat, and a fascist is an extreme republican.
The graphic answer (editorially changed)
It's like the difference between a seducer and a rapist. They're both in the same place but one uses violence to fuck you.
The straight answer
Libertarians believe in free markets, private property, and capitalism. Anarchists who believe in these things usually call themselves libertarians.
Laci's definition
Libertarianism is Anarchy with a smiley face mask to make it palatable to the ignorant.
In reality, Libertarians, for all their talk support corporatocracy which is far more tyrannical than the governments they despise. Libertarianism opposes government authority in all forms and seems to believe we can live happily and in complete freedom without government interference. If government is involved, it protects the rights of the wealthy and corporations--not individuals.
The slogan “individual responsibility” is popular among libertarians, but it is not individuals or individual liberties that they are concerned. It is the “rights” of businesses, large and small (but especially large) to make a substantial profit without government strictures, oversight, or intervention. In their view, corporations should be able to pollute the air, water, and soil, sell shoddy or dangerous goods, and violate the rights of their workers. The faith of these ideologues in the free market is as fervent, inflexible, and insusceptible of proof as John Calvin’s belief in predestination. According to anarcho-capitalists, a restaurant that gives its customers food poisoning will just go out of business; an automobile company that installs faulty brakes will lose its customer base. Because the market, like a mysterious Providence, eventually intervenes, neither regulation nor compensation is required. Similarly, certain prominent anarchists declared that “anarchy is order!”—meaning that if authorities did not interfere, things would naturally sort themselves out.
An interesting aside:
An Open Letter to Murray Rothbard on Andre Marrou, the Libertarian Party, and that "vexing" hole in the libertarian system -- Children
Great Minds think alike
(I was looking for one of my "Libertarianism is only right wing anarchy" posts and only found this)
I was curious after my George Monbiot, you swine… post as to what George's thoughts on libertarianism since we do share common beliefs. So, I did a search of his blog on the term libertarian and came up with subject headings such as:
Libertarians are the True Social Parasites
The Anti-Social Bastards in Our Midst
Yep, we are on the same page on libertarianism as well.
When it comes to the description of parasites, George should know since he is an Oxford educated zoologist. The concept that people will work well "if they can get government off our backs" is challenged by George in a case of what I call the ladder principle, which is where one uses the governmental system to prosper and then pulls the ladder up so that no one else can follow. In the case of one Libertarian, he was against government intrusion in the market, until his bank needed help!
The problem is that there needs to be some form of government, which libertarians decry as statism. But the government can be society at large. The libertarian prefers to not live within society's norms. Of course, as Geoge Monbiot points out, libertarians are all too interested in using the system's institutions against the system for their self-interest. For example, the Cato Institute used the Court system to rewrite the constitution in the Heller-McDonald cases. I am not sure what to think of the aspect that the Court did more than just interpret the constitution and the populace at large failed to notice that.
My personal experience of libertarians is that they are the ones who scream loudly of freedom, but do their best to intrude upon other's freedom and security. Naturally, that comment would attract claims from the libertarian crowd that my support for gun control is "anti-liberty". I counter that with among other things the fact that security checkpoints are common in US public buildings and people live in fear of being shot. Even more saliently, the Second Amendment was written to prevent a large military, not to ensure private arms outside the militia context.
MY impetus to write this is a response to a post at Daisy's Dead Air where she mentions incest. My opinion is that she is confusing liberals and libertarians. My first encounter with libertarians was that a class mate had libertarian parents. The parents gave their kids pornography and tolerated behaviour which turned out to be the son molesting the daughter. I blame it on the libertarian dislike of the nanny state and calling incest a "victimless crime".
In reading the Maclean's article Daisy mentions, it sounds like the libertarian viewpoint. The first comment bears that out:
As opposed to "Statists" who believe in things such as laws...And conventions of society.
Likewise, as a Green, I have a strong distrust of libertarianism since it is a pro-industry viewpoint. They argue such things as global temperatures have scarcely increased, so we should stop worrying about climate change. They suggest that elephants should be hunted for their ivory, planning laws should be scrapped, recycling should be stopped, bosses should be free to choose whether or not their workers contract repetitive strain injury and companies, rather than governments, should be allowed to decide whether or not the food they sell is safe. They rage against taxes, subsidies, bail-outs and government regulation. Well, bail-outs to the point that the libertarian requires them--then they are acceptable.
I will end by quoting George:
"L'etat c'est moi"..et toi (vous?).
I was curious after my George Monbiot, you swine… post as to what George's thoughts on libertarianism since we do share common beliefs. So, I did a search of his blog on the term libertarian and came up with subject headings such as:
Libertarians are the True Social Parasites
The Anti-Social Bastards in Our Midst
Yep, we are on the same page on libertarianism as well.
When it comes to the description of parasites, George should know since he is an Oxford educated zoologist. The concept that people will work well "if they can get government off our backs" is challenged by George in a case of what I call the ladder principle, which is where one uses the governmental system to prosper and then pulls the ladder up so that no one else can follow. In the case of one Libertarian, he was against government intrusion in the market, until his bank needed help!
The problem is that there needs to be some form of government, which libertarians decry as statism. But the government can be society at large. The libertarian prefers to not live within society's norms. Of course, as Geoge Monbiot points out, libertarians are all too interested in using the system's institutions against the system for their self-interest. For example, the Cato Institute used the Court system to rewrite the constitution in the Heller-McDonald cases. I am not sure what to think of the aspect that the Court did more than just interpret the constitution and the populace at large failed to notice that.
My personal experience of libertarians is that they are the ones who scream loudly of freedom, but do their best to intrude upon other's freedom and security. Naturally, that comment would attract claims from the libertarian crowd that my support for gun control is "anti-liberty". I counter that with among other things the fact that security checkpoints are common in US public buildings and people live in fear of being shot. Even more saliently, the Second Amendment was written to prevent a large military, not to ensure private arms outside the militia context.
MY impetus to write this is a response to a post at Daisy's Dead Air where she mentions incest. My opinion is that she is confusing liberals and libertarians. My first encounter with libertarians was that a class mate had libertarian parents. The parents gave their kids pornography and tolerated behaviour which turned out to be the son molesting the daughter. I blame it on the libertarian dislike of the nanny state and calling incest a "victimless crime".
In reading the Maclean's article Daisy mentions, it sounds like the libertarian viewpoint. The first comment bears that out:
I agree wholeheartedly with the commentator. I think is a clear example of government overreach. There is no reason to criminalize incest. There is no need to deter people from doing it, since most people are naturally repulsed by it.The article and the comments have that "intrusive government" aspect which is libertarianism.
As opposed to "Statists" who believe in things such as laws...And conventions of society.
Likewise, as a Green, I have a strong distrust of libertarianism since it is a pro-industry viewpoint. They argue such things as global temperatures have scarcely increased, so we should stop worrying about climate change. They suggest that elephants should be hunted for their ivory, planning laws should be scrapped, recycling should be stopped, bosses should be free to choose whether or not their workers contract repetitive strain injury and companies, rather than governments, should be allowed to decide whether or not the food they sell is safe. They rage against taxes, subsidies, bail-outs and government regulation. Well, bail-outs to the point that the libertarian requires them--then they are acceptable.
I will end by quoting George:
Wherever modern humans, living outside the narrow social mores of the clan, are allowed to pursue their genetic interests without constraint, they will hurt other people. They will grab other people’s resources, they will dump their waste in other people’s habitats, they will cheat, lie, steal and kill. And if they have power and weapons, no one will be able to stop them except those with more power and better weapons. Our genetic inheritance makes us smart enough to see that when the old society breaks down, we should appease those who are more powerful than ourselves, and exploit those who are less powerful. The survival strategies which once ensured cooperation among equals now ensure subservience to those who have broken the social contract.And add that in a democracy, the people ARE the government, which makes me even more suspicious of the libertarian dislike for "government" and "the State".
The democratic challenge, which becomes ever more complex as the scale of human interactions increases, is to mimic the governance system of the small hominid troop. We need a state that rewards us for cooperating and punishes us for cheating and stealing. At the same time we must ensure that the state is also treated like a member of the hominid clan and punished when it acts against the common good. Human welfare, just as it was a million years ago, is guaranteed only by mutual scrutiny and regulation.
I doubt that libertarians would be able to sustain their beliefs in a place where the state has broken down. Unless tax-payers’ money and public services are available to repair the destruction it causes, libertarianism destroys people’s savings, wrecks their lives and trashes their environment. It is the belief system of the free-rider, who is perpetually subsidised by responsible citizens. As biologists we both know what this means. Self-serving as governments might be, the true social parasites are those who demand their dissolution.
"L'etat c'est moi"..et toi (vous?).
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