Sunday, August 1, 2010
Is the NRA Racist?
Commenter TS demands I show my contentention the NRA is racist is true.
Okeydokey.
Now, most every organization likely has racist members; this point is frequently made by NRA quislings in an attempt to explain away the NRA's racism. And it's true that one can find racists in the armed services or various businesses or civic groups--but that doesn't mean that organization is racist. In order for a group or organization to be racist, it must be demonstrated that the leadership condones and/or advocates racist views. So, with this premise, let's look at the NRA.
1. Leadership condones racist views. I'm sure most readers are familiar with this article detailing the racism of NRA Board members Ted Nugent and Jeff Cooper. Here's a speech by Charlton Heston that got great reviews by David Duke and StormFront. There are many, many other examples; the bottomline is that these racist views weren't expressed by some blowhard rank-and-file NRA member--they were from the top of the NRA leadership.
2. Freedom In Peril The NRA at first tried to deny they had anything to do with this bit of racist propaganda. Per this tract, it's pretty apparent the NRA doesn't like any minority---even lobsters.
3. Gun Shows and White Supremacists. NRA-sponsored gun shows often have vendors selling Nazi paraphernalia, white supremacist books (The Turner Diaries, etc.) and materials, and various conspiract theory materials.
4. NRA Association With White Supremacist Groups. The NRA has associated with known racist groups such as the Council of Conservative Citizens (CofCC), the Minuteman Project and various other white supremacist groups.
There's no smoke here--only fire.
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"3. Gun Shows and White Supremacists. NRA-sponsored gun shows often have vendors selling Nazi paraphernalia, white supremacist books (The Turner Diaries, etc.) and materials, and various conspiract theory materials."
ReplyDeleteWhat the hell is an "NRA sponsored gun show?" I never heard of one. Where is the next one?
How is the Minuteman Project racist? All they do is report criminals.
Google is your friend:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.google.com/search?q=nra+sponsored+gun+shows&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us&sa=2
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/news/nazis-racists-join-minuteman-project
Your first link goes to the VPC, and tries desperately to make a connection of racism, yet they offer nothing more than connections via individuals who are board members, yet the connections are tenuous at best. Robert Brown allowed ads for Nazi memorabilia in his magazine?? Oh no, how dare he accept an ad for something that war trophy collectors like to buy!?
ReplyDeleteYour second link means nothing. Storm Front liked Heston's speech, but I bet that's because they missed the part where he was tolerant of homosexuality, and had Marched in '63, and had been with the Civil Rights movement since '61. Either that, or Storm Front is softening their stance a bit.
How exactly is the third link racist? (it certainly is over the top.) Please provide specific examples.
As for gun shows, there are all kinds of booth and tables, from Nazi memorabilia to candy, knives to posters, jerky to T-shirts. If they'll pay the table fee, they're in. I believe we call it a free market. It's an interesting concept--basically, if people don't want it, it won't sell. So, some people who come to the gun shows buy non-gun stuff. Amazing, isn't it?
Lastly, your attempt to paint the Minutemen as racist is as silly and misguided as saying the NRA is racist. I find it funny that you would use one organization that is accused (but not proven) to be racist to point to another that is accused (but not proven) to be racist.
There's no fire here, only smoke and mirrors.
The original plaintiff in the Parker / Heller case was black.
ReplyDeleteObviously the fact that the NRA fought for the civil rights of a black woman means they're racist and hate minorities.....
Sometimes the stupidity of the bloggers here really astounds me.
WRT Freedom in Peril, the NRA never denied it, just that it was released without approval. Sure it perpetuates stereotypes, an offense Jade is surely innocent of.
ReplyDelete1. VPC = fail
ReplyDelete2. How was Freedom in Peril "racist propaganda"?
3. You can also buy those same materials outside of gun shows.
Let's deal with the usual bleats of indignation.
ReplyDeleteRE the VPC article, like it or not, your leaderhip reflects your organization. So, if members of your board of directors are making racist remarks and/or catering to Neo-Nazi groups---you really can't pretend that when they do so, it has nothing to do with the organization.
Re Heston, you're trying to claim that if someone engaged in admirable pursuits some 40 years earlier--that it confers some sort of free pass for whatever you might do later in life. The fact is by the 1980s, Heston had turned into a hardline rightwinger who opposed abortion rights, affirmative action, gay rights, and advocated for censorship of the media.
Re Gun shows. Those who claim the free market is at play--consider this: vendors will generally go where the market is. IOW, somebody selling PETA/vegan materials probably knows he/she isn't going to have much success at a meatpacking show. Similarly, having been to computer, car, home improvement and other shows, I've never seen anyone hawking racist materials at those venues.
Re Minuteman, there's really no question this group is populated by racists and has been designated a hate group by the SPLC and ADL.
Re McDonald--McDonald himself acknowledges the NRA is "using" him. BTW, the KKK actally had black members. So, claiming the NRA has minority members really doesn't make it less racist.
Re Freedom in Peril. Yes, the NRA tried to deny it produced it but they quickly were exposed. Regardless, the NRA leadership commissioned it and intended to release it.
"Re Heston, you're trying to claim that if someone engaged in admirable pursuits some 40 years earlier--that it confers some sort of free pass for whatever you might do later in life."
DeleteYour thoughts then on Robert Byrd?
Well, there you go. Jade Fool has sagely showed us!
ReplyDelete"So, if members of your board of directors are making racist remarks and/or catering to Neo-Nazi groups---you really can't pretend that when they do so, it has nothing to do with the organization."
ReplyDeleteSo does that mean the Democrat Party is racist?
So does that mean the Democrat Party is racist?
ReplyDeleteLet's see if we can clarify things for AzRed.
Let's say a Dem Senator makes a racist remark. And let's say that he refuses to apologize for it. And let's say the Dem party not only refuses to discipline or repudiate him--it continues to support him. Then we could say the Dem party is racist.
Now, Az Red will undoubtedly claim that the Dems were the party of segregation. And he'd be right. But he refuses to acknowledge that in the late 50s/early 60s, the Dems purged all their Dixiecrats--who then became leaders in the GOP.
"But he refuses to acknowledge that in the late 50s/early 60s, the Dems purged all their Dixiecrats--who then became leaders in the GOP."
Deletehttp://www.examiner.com/article/the-dixiecrat-myth
Not so fast skippy
Once again, Jade Fool, the curator of the Museum of Unnatural History, gives us a lesson in what almost happened in the real world.
ReplyDeleteThere are only two recognizble names who advocated segregation as Democrats who later switched to the GOP. Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms.
All of the rest of the major supporters of segregation slowly were weeded out by their constituents because they were unpopular enough to lose. The Democrats had no "purge." If they had, the recently demised Robert Byrd surely would have been asked to go.
But, go ahead, Jade, tell us your version. It's funnier, and you might find five or six people who will believe it.
"Let's say a Dem Senator makes a racist remark. And let's say that he refuses to apologize for it. And let's say the Dem party not only refuses to discipline or repudiate him--it continues to support him. Then we could say the Dem party is racist."
ReplyDeleteThen the Democrat party is racist:
"I'll have those n*ggers voting Democratic for the next 200 years." - Lyndon B. Johnson
"I want to go up to the closest white person and say: 'You can't understand this, it's a black thing' and then slap him, just for my mental health." - Charles Barron, a New York city councilman
"Blacks and Hispanics are too busy eating watermelons and tacos to learn how to read and write." - Mike Wallace, Democrat apologist, CBS News.
"You'd find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, they'd just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva." - Fritz Hollings
The list goes on and on.
AZ Red is too funny.
ReplyDeleteHe takes an LBJ quote--one that was recorded in a private phone call. What's more, he fails to realize LBJ was responsible for fighting for and getting the Civil Rights acy passed into law.
Mike Wallace was elected to what office again? That's right--none. Didn't run for one. Besides the quote is bogus.
Does it matter that it was recorded privately, Jade? Most of what Nixon said that got him in trouble was recorded from private (or so he thought) calls and in the office. People often speak their truest thoughts when they don't worry about whether anyone is listening that shouldn't be.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly enough, it shows LBJ's attitude towards the people he supposedly cared so much about.
And you don't know whether AztecRed knows that LBJ championed civil rights or not. He may well know it, and was using the quote to point out that even though LBJ pushed Civil Rights, he obviously still held racist views.
Jadegold, Thanks for a wonderful post. I find your four points to be extremely convincing, but it does not surprise me that most of the commenters do not. I think the reason for that is they're defensive and contentious. Some of them have that debating method of never giving in to anything or admitting anything ever.
ReplyDeleteRacism runs deep among gun owners, among the conservitive Obama haters among most groups of whites. I'm convinced.
LBJ championed civil rights for political reasons, not out of some sense of patriotic duty. The man was a Dixiecrat to the core. He just happened to be more pragmatic than the Bull Connors and George Wallaces of the day.
ReplyDeleteLook, Jade, you found one! Of course, we expected MikeB to be on your side anyway, but still.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSorry for jumping in late, but I seemed to be the impetus for Jade’s hate speech, so I thought I should comment.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, if you want to prove that the NRA is racist, you should show how their policies and actions are not treating minorities with equality. The fact remains that this is the exact opposite. You frequently claim the NRA takes a “guns for everybody” stance. Well, “everybody” certainly includes minorities, right?
Instead you have loose associations with other groups/people whom you claim are also racist. Guilt by association, right? I noticed the governor of Virginia is also in the picture with Heston. Does this also make Virginia a racist state? It is also quite reminiscent of the Obama/Bill Ayers “scandal”. I’ll take a stab in the dark and guess that you were up in arms regarding the “pals around with terrorist” claims of Berthers, Sarah Palin, Hillary Clinton, et al. You know what all of them have in common? They are losers. When someone is losing, they resort to these cheap, desperate tactics that can only work on the unintelligent/lazy that don’t want to bother having a thought of their own. No need to worry about undermining your character when you are going to lose anyway. This is what your argument has been reduced to.
Bottom line is this shameless cries of racism are counter productive and dilute real race issues in this country.
TS, Let me turn it around on you a minute. To me it seems all the vehement denial of racism is an indication of desperation. Your typical group of gun owners or NRA members is a bunch of white guys, most of whom are racists.
ReplyDeleteI realize you can split hairs over what constitutes a racist, so go ahead, knock yourself out.
But, if you just want to be honest, use common sense and stop arguing for the sake of arguing, you can admit to the racism. Even if you want to exclude yourself, fine, but generally speaking, racism is alive and thriving.
"To me it seems all the vehement denial of racism is an indication of desperation."
ReplyDeleteOr--perhaps--frustration, at being incorrectly labelled something offensive by someone who admits he doesn't really know gun owners, but has a deeply rooted hatred for them and will label the gun owners at large for something that only a small percentage of gun owners actually express.
But, hey, you're good at that, MikeB.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJadegold: “To me it seems all the vehement denial of racism is an indication of desperation. Your typical group of gun owners or NRA members is a bunch of white guys, most of whom are racists.”
ReplyDeleteLook jade, when people are vehemently accused of something baseless there is bound to be vehement denial.
Wow, I just typed that out assuming it was Jadegold who said that. I truly expected better from you, MikeB. The hate is permeating in you too.
TS, Anon and RuffRidr, What exactly are you saying then. Zero racism among gun owners?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThere's zero percent amongst me, and I am a gunowner.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, though, read RuffRidr's answer again. Re-read it. Read it enough times that it burns into your brain.
No one is denying that there are racists are amongst gun owners. And you've taken the usual step of saying, "There is racism that I can see, so there must also be racism I cannot see."
The problem is, you've taken the unusual step of attempting to quantify that unknown amount with the simple claim "most" rather than "some." Most implies a majority. Some implies a subset, but doesn't really quantify it.
I have no argument with the statement: "Some gun owners are racists." I know that to be true. I've met one or three, and they're miserable, worthless people.
But, change "some" to "most" and you've placed a majority number on it, and now you've got a fight, because my own experience tells me otherwise.
Ditto to Ruffridr. Verbatim.
ReplyDeleteThe one thought I will add is that you are guilty of the exact thing that racists do- applying your bad feelings to a particular group, rather than an individual.
I said racism "runs deep" among gun owners and among other groups of whites.
ReplyDeleteI said, "generally speaking, racism is alive and thriving."
And I said, "Your typical group of gun owners or NRA members is a bunch of white guys, most of whom are racists."
If I change "most" to "many," will you all be happy and agree with me?
Changing from most to many is like saying "I won't call it rose, I'll call it pink." If you change most to some, I'll agree with you.
ReplyDeleteMany is defined as a large, indefinite number.
In other words, many is still too broad.
All right, "some" it is.
ReplyDeleteRead about Robert F. Williams, a black man that was terrorized by kluckers in the 50's and how the NRA helped he and his band of heros out.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=2960
The NRA has significantly changed as an organization over time.
DeleteTo borrow a colloquialism, they ain't what they used to be.
Doco, My co-blogger already handled your inanity, but let me put it this way. The NRA that helped Mr. Williams in the 50s has as much to do with the NRA today as the authors of the Bill of Rights have to do with present day concealed carry movement.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, everything.
Deleteminutemen? Have you ever known any minutemen? I spent time with them, they are a bunch of racist rednecks, who talk about "killing beaners".
ReplyDeleteThanks for that personal account. Why don't you write it up and send it in by e-mail. I'll make a post out of it.
Deletemikeb302000@hotmail.co.uk