The first that comes to mind is that there is no explicit language granting such a right. The text of the statute is used first, and it is read as it is written, using the ordinary meaning of the words of the statute. Courts must presume that a legislature says in a statute what it means and means what it says in a statute. We this analogue to the Second Amendment that demonstrates what this means:
That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; And that the military should be kept under strict subordination, to, and governed by, the civil powerNote that a personal right is specifically mentioned in the above texts, whereas it is not in the Second Amendment to the US constitution.
or
A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and State, and for hunting and recreational use.
Or
The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State.
Next, it is presumed that a an act of legislation will be interpreted so as to be internally consistent. A particular section statute shall not be divorced from the rest of the act. That means that other sections addressing the militia from the Constitution need to be added to the interpretation of the Second Amendment.
Additionally, Every part of a legislative act is presumed to be of some effect and is not to be treated as meaningless unless absolutely necessary.
Let's not forget congress' powers under Article I, Section 8, Clause 16 while we are at it:
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;It is congress's power to arm the militia. It was feared that congress could neglect to fulfill this duty to the detriment of the militia.
In short, we must find our meaning in the text, not outside of it. We can also look for further guidance in the Constitution since the Second Amendment must be read within the framework of the constitution. However, a search of the Constitutional text will find that one constitutional purpose is to "provide for the common defence" and you don't have to read to far into the Constitution to find that stated. Nowhere is self-defence mentioned in the US Constitution.
Not to mention that the doctrine of self-defence did not allow for armed self-defence in all cases, but required only the reasonable amount of force to counter the threat. Additionally, there was a duty to retreat at the time the Constitution was written. To argue that the Founders intended that armed defence was an option without specifically mentioning it is a further absurdity.
Blackstone stated that, although the words of an enacting clause were 'generally to be understood in their usual and most known signification,' yet if its words, after due analysis, were 'still dubious' or 'ambiguous, equivocal, or intricate,' one might look to the context, which included 'the proeme, or preamble, [which] is often called in to help the construction of an act of parliament.' (1 Blackstone at 59-60).
Additional help can be found from Blackstone regarding the "proeme, or preamble" is part of a larger section that consists of "observations concerning the interpretation of laws." 1 Blackstone at *58. One of those "observations" was: "BUT, lastly, the most universal and effectual way of discovering the true meaning of a law, when the words are dubious, is by considering the reason and spirit of it; or the cause which moved the legislator to enact it. For when this reason ceases, the laws itself ought likewise to cease with it." 1 Blackstone at *61.
Blackstone refers to this "when the reason ceases, the law ought to cease" principle several times in the Commentaries, which would seem to indicate that he considered it a fairly important interpretive principle. 2 Blackstone at *390-91 (discussing property interests in tame and domestic animals and noting "But here the reasons of the general rule cease, and 'cessante ratione cessat et ipsa lex' [The reason of the law ceasing, the law itself also ceases]"), 3 Blackstone at *219 (discussing the law of nuisance, and noting "But, where the reason ceases, the law also ceases with it : therefore it is no nuisance to erect a mill so near mine, as to draw away the custom, unless the miller also intercepts the water."), 4 Blackstone at *3 (noting that some aspects of Britain's criminal law "seem to want revision and amendment" and explaining that "These have chiefly arisen from too scrupulous an adherence to some rules of the antient common law, when the resons have ceased upon which those rules were founded . . . "), 4 Blackstone at *81 (discussing the law of treason, and noting that the "plain intention of this law is to guard the blood royal from any suspicion of bastardy, whereby the succession to the crown might be rendered dubious: and therefore, when this reason ceases, the law ceases with it . . ."), 4 Blackstone at *330 (discussing the plea of a former attainder, and noting "But to this general rule however, as to all others, there are some exceptions; wherein, cessante ratione, cessat et ipsa lex."). Someone said that the proeme could be read as starting with Because. Which means a better way of reading this is Because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
All that means any attempt to say that the "proeme" is in anyway meaningless (as happened in Heller) renders the Second Amendment meaningless. That is the paradox of the "individual right" interpretation.
Next, we come to the historic role of the militia in relation to a citizen of a republic's civic duties. I've mentioned this before, but...
Americans inherited the concept of Civic republicanism from seventeenth century English "Commonwealthmen". This concept was a primary ideological value driving the American Revolution and the framing of the Constitution. Historian Gordon Wood writes that "[r]epublicanism meant more for Americans than simply the elimination of a king and the institution of an elective system. This concept added a moral dimension and utopian aspect to the political separation from England--an aspect that involved the very character of their society."
The classical liberal tradition gave the independence movement its values and concepts with which we have grown familiar. The most important of which was a civic and patriot ideal in which the personality was founded in property, perfected in citizenship but perpetually threatened by corruption; government figuring paradoxically as the principle source of corruption and operating through such means as patronage,faction, standing armies (as opposed to the ideal of the militia), established churches (opposed to the Puritan and deist modes of American religion) and the promotion of a monied interest .
The founders believed in the Republic and that was how they wanted the newly formed United States to function. Republicanism made high moral demands on its citizens, in addition to entrusting them with the defense of their communities. For example, a citizen of a republic was expected to subordinate self-interest to the overarching good of the community.
The public good was, in fact, the lodestar for a republican government. Citizen participation in civic affairs was absolutely essential to a republican government. It was understood that there was a moral obligation obligation for citizen participation in government. This moral obligation was described in the literature of the times as public or civic virtue.
The next hurdle is the Standing Army v. Militia question which was a very prominent theme in Anglo-US history during the 17th, 18th, and start of the 19th Century. There's a lot more material out there saying this was the concern than any indication of an "individual right to arms" outside the context of the militia duty. Straight up, a professional standing army was seen as another instrument that could be used by a tyrannical government to subjugate its citizens and the constitution created a Federal Army. The institution of the militia served to eliminate the possibility of a coup by ambitious leaders using a preofessional standing army--and that is very much what all the misqutations show when one reads them in context. The presence of an armed citizens' militia served as a visible reminder to the executive of the ability of the people to remove the "tyrant" by force if necessary.
But, since the militia is an institution of Anglo-American heritage--why does the concept of "gun rights" only exist in the US? Shouldn't this "right" exist in other common law jurisdictions? How (and why) did the Australians, who have a similar attitude to firearms as the US, enact such strong gun laws after the Port Arthur massacre? That shouldn't have happened if there was a universal common law concept of gun rights.
We can get into how Scalia and Alito legislated from the bench by judicially amending the Constitution in their decisions (see US v Miller and Justice Stevens' dissent in Heller) , but that is many other posts I have made.
In short, the "individual right" interpretation of the Second Amendment has a lot of work to get around the warning bells to thinking minds that it is bullshit. There is too much revisionist history and nonsense written buttressing that opinion that makes no sense when properly scrutinised.
Resources:
- Tom W. Bell, The Third Amendment: Forgotten but Not Gone, 2 William & Mary Bill of Rights J. 117 (1993).
- William S. Fields and David T. Hardy, The Third Amendment and the Issue of the Maintenance of Standing Armies: A Legal History, 35 Am. J. Legal Hist. 393 (1991).
- Western, J.R.: English Militia in the Eighteenth Century: The Story of a Political Issue, 1660-1802 (ISBN: 978-0751201406)
- Beckett, Ian: Britain's Part-Time Soldiers: The Amateur Military Tradition 1558-1945 (ISBN: 978-1848843950)
- Cress, Lawrence Delbert Cress. Citizens in Arms: The Army and the Militia in American Society to the War of 1812
- Cunliffe, Marcus, Soldiers and Civilians: The Martial Spirit in America, 1775-1865
- Denning, Brannon P., Palladium of Liberty? Causes and Consequences of the Federalization of State Militias in the Twentieth Century, 21 Okla. City U. L. Rev. 191-245 (1996)
- Mahon, John K, The History of the Militia and the National Guard
- Millett, Allan R. & Maslowski, Peter, For The Common Defense: A Military History of the United States of America: Revised Edition
- Riker, William H, Soldiers of the States
- One of the few Law Review articles discussing the historical militia is "The Militia Clause of the Constitution" by Frederick Wiener 54 Harvard Law Review 181(1940).
- See also Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, Book V, Chapter I (Of the Expences of the Sovereign or Commonwealth), PART I: 16-27 (Of the Expence of Defence) for a critique of the miltia system from 1775.
- Also, David Chandler & Ian Beckett, The Oxford Illustrated History of the British Army (ISBN: 978-0198691785) has a section on the Amateur Military Tradition (I.E., the Militia).
- Weatherup, Roy, Standing Armies And Armed Citizens: An Historical Analysis of The Second Amendment, 2 Hastings Const. L.Q. 961-1001 (1975)
- Schwoerer, Lois G. "No Standing Armies!" The Antiarmy Ideology in Seventeenth-Century England
- Whisker, James Biser The Citizen-Soldier under Federal and State Law, 94 W. Va. L. Rev. 947 (1991-1992)
- Cooper, Jerry The Rise of the National Guard: The Evolution of the American Militia, 1865-1920, ISBN: 978-0803264281
- Bogus, Carl T. THE HISTORY AND POLITICS OF SECOND AMENDMENT SCHOLARSHIP: A PRIMER, Chicago-Kent Law Review, Symposium on the Second Amendment, vol. 76, 2000: 3S
- Spitzer, Robert J. LOST AND FOUND: RESEARCHING THE SECOND AMENDMENT, Chicago-Kent Law Review,Symposium on the Second Amendment vol. 76, 2000: 349
Your arguments are interesting, though I did not realize that you were an originalist.
ReplyDeleteLet's consider a few additional ideas:
1. Many state constitutions are specifically written in the manner of the examples that you gave. In fact, I wonder if you're not quoting a few.
2. The duty to retreat means that if I can retreat in safety, I must do so. It does not mean that I have to outrun a bullet or a man chasing me with a knife, nor does it mean that I have to subject myself to danger in the attempt to get away.
3. The Constitution does not give us rights. It ennumerates a few specific rights that the Founders felt were important to name and guarantee. The Ninth Amendment addresses this point.
4. The Supreme Court, over the years, has found rights implied in the text that aren't specifically stated. Abortion is one example, derived from the right to privacy, which is also not specifically there. I'm glad that the Court has a practice of broadening our interpretation of rights, and I'm disturbed when it goes against that practice.
5. The Australian Constitution lacks a Bill of Rights, which is precisely why Australian citizens lost a lot of their freedom under the gun control laws that you mention. England is becoming increasingly the society that Orwell warned us about. In both cases, the faith that the parliaments would protect the rights of the people has been shown to be misplaced.
In the end it all comes down to whoever has the power is going to set the rules and enforce them to the extent that their power allows them. If the gun control people think they have the power, then get the laws you want passed and enforce them. If you can't get the laws passed and find someone with the power to enforce them, then nothing will change.
ReplyDeleteLaci could be 100% correct in his interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. So what? That is not what is currently being enforced in most of the states and I doubt he will find enough people with the power to make it change.
"The Australian Constitution lacks a Bill of Rights, which is precisely why Australian citizens lost a lot of their freedom under the gun control laws that you mention. England is becoming increasingly the society that Orwell warned us about. In both cases, the faith that the parliaments would protect the rights of the people has been shown to be misplaced."
ReplyDeleteHave you ever been to the UK Greg, or better yet, lived there? Or do all of your impressions of the UK come from right wing propaganda?
I sure hope you are better at those ancient to renaissance works of literature than your understanding of how to apply Orwell to modern reality.
You ARE aware, aren't you, that the gun laws in Australia were passed by members of representative government? this is not something that was inflicted on citizens of the UK or of Australia by some strange and mysterious outside entity.
I'm not persuaded that you know much about the reality of firearm legislation in Australia either. In particular I doubt you know how their firearms regulation works. They permit people to own guns for hunting, wild animal control, collecting and target shooting - just not self defense.
I like their reasoning. And the results have been a WHOLE lot better than our gun violence stats here in the states.
And not one of the Brits or Aussies that I know would describe themselves as less free than you or I are living here. This is true for those who live there exclusively and for those who have lived and traveled around the world in comparison.
So, you're spouting bullshit, which only plays well to the other gun nuts who don't use good critical thinking or who are far too willing to take what they are told on faith instead of questioning it intelligently, so long as it plays to their prejudices.
Your claims of teaching critical thinking to students is getting less and less plausible by the moment.
As to your 'additional ideas' about the constitution - gee, who did you crib that off of? Because you don't seem to have an actual education on the finer points of the U.S. Constitution.
You don't seem to have too firm a grasp of the fundamental principles and concepts of the Constitution either, if you fail to understand the premise that we decide through representative government how to regulate dangerous things like firearms for our safety, and that includes limiting what you inaccurately perceive to be our 2nd amendment rights, by restricting some kinds of firearms to some people, denying them entirely to others, so as to make all of us safe.
You'll know when all of us are safe, btw, by an objective metric; we will have fewer incidents of gun violence, particularly homicides, suicides, domestic violence, etc. NOT when we all have to carry a gun to shoot each other in self defense, like some dystopian Mad Max fictional universe.
Actually, the last hurdles to the individual rights interpretation are contributors to this blog. The rest of the free world, including the Bradytards, already know it.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever been to the UK Greg, or better yet, lived there? Or do all of your impressions of the UK come from right wing propaganda?
ReplyDeletePaul Clarke, 27, was given a 12-month suspended sentence for possession of a firearm at Reading Crown Court today.
http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/GUN-SOLDIER-WALKS-FREE-COURT/story-12664247-detail/story.html
Jail time for turning in a gun to the police, after they would not do their job.
I sure hope you are better at those ancient to renaissance works of literature than your understanding of how to apply Orwell to modern reality.
ReplyDeleteEU bans claim that water can prevent dehydration
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8897662/EU-bans-claim-that-water-can-prevent-dehydration.html
So, Thomas, have you read the entire article?
ReplyDelete"Prof Brian Ratcliffe, spokesman for the Nutrition Society, said dehydration was usually caused by a clinical condition and that one could remain adequately hydrated without drinking water."
“This claim is trying to imply that there is something special about bottled water which is not a reasonable claim.”
There are many ways of staying hydrated without drinking BOTTLED water, which is what the controversy is really about.
The concern was about laws which make claims that are intended to hype a product by fear-mongering that they do something that addresses an illness or a disease. Yes, drinking water does hydrate; so do a lot of other things.
But if a person is having problems staying hydrated that is usually an indication of other problems which require medical intervention. One that comes to mind where that is a symptom that is a significant public health issue is in diabetes, for example.
So you can make fun of this attempt to regulate labeling if you like, and I would agree that their ban needs to be about normal versus unusual problems with staying hydrated that are symptomatic of an illness.
But instead of considering that there could be a legitimate and serious intent behind the concerns over labeling, one that was badly expressed from the coverage of the article, I'm sure you found it much more amusing to try to make this something else.
Should the ban have been worded differently? Probably. Does this article report the wording correctly, particularly if the wording reported is a bad translation? That I don't know.
But at least I took the time to find out what this was about instead of just ridiculing it.
Sorry, but I don't see this citation as proving quite what you think it does.
dog gone:
ReplyDelete“This claim is trying to imply that there is something special about bottled water which is not a reasonable claim.”
That's just some pointyheadedcommiescientist's propaganda; why does he hate capitalism?
This:
http://www.remembercynthia.com/Hyponatremia_BostonGlobe.htm
this:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23393615-marathon-victim-died-from-drinking-too-much-water.do
and this:
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-242-302--8785-0,00.html
are quite alarming!
It appears that DRINKING WATER KILLS PEOPLE! I was gonna have a couple of scotch and waters for breakfast. That would be stupid. I'm gonna drink the scotch, "neat"!
I do get a kick out of people who come to refute Laci The Dog's arguments about things constitutional and (unless they are amazingly FAST readers) don't spend any time in reading some of the many sources he provides, before saying, "You're wrong because and shut up, neener, neener."
ReplyDeleteThat Story, btw, about the british gent that got the suspended sentence has a whole lot of conjecture on the part of him and his lawyer as to what couldashouldmighta happened. The fact that he says the cops are out to get him certainly begs the question of why he would do something like not calling the local paper and his attorney to come to his house (or considering he might not have retained an attorney at that point, to just get the reporters there).
It does sound as if he might be getting jerked around by the cops. That tends to happen when you piss them off. It is totally improper and, depending on their conduct, possibly illegal for the police to have not followed proper procedure in the matter. If that is the case they should be dealt with appropriately. I don't like abusive asshole cops any more than other sorts of abusive assholes.
The law, it appears, is clear and even the defendants attorney admits to this.
"2. The duty to retreat means that if I can retreat in safety, I must do so. It does not mean that I have to outrun a bullet or a man chasing me with a knife, nor does it mean that I have to subject myself to danger in the attempt to get away."
ReplyDeleteThen I'm sure you have the actual text, proving that, handy. If not, you're making an unsubstantiated assertion.
"3. The Constitution does not give us rights. It ennumerates a few specific rights that the Founders felt were important to name and guarantee. The Ninth Amendment addresses this point."
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, I should have handled both this and the last item in the same comment.
The Constitution gives us no rights? The Constitution enumerates a few specific rights.
Pray tell, by what agency are those rights given to us? Some magic diety, perhaps?
The US has drastically changed the mitigating factor of self-defence. This is a good summary of how it worked in Common Law:
ReplyDeleteIn the criminal law, the duty to retreat is a specific component which sometimes appears in the defense of self-defense, and which must be addressed if the defendant is to prove that his or her conduct was justified. In those jurisdictions where the requirement exists, the burden of proof is on the defense to show that the defendant was acting reasonably. This is often taken to mean that the defendant had first avoided conflict and secondly, had taken reasonable steps to retreat and so demonstrated an intention not to fight before eventually using force.
That would have been how the founders understood the right.
Greg, I know you aren't a legal historian and you have a hard time refuting what I am saying.
I have provided the passage from Blackstone regarding self-defence and if you were as smart as you think you are, Greg, you could find it.
In fact, I have pretty much addressed most of your comments in other posts.
Which, as I said, if you were as smart as you think you are, Greg, you could find it.
Lessee, the Paul Clarke firearm story was covered by the Daily Mail.
ReplyDeleteI tried to find the same story in a more reputable paper. Neither the Time nor the Guardian mentioned this story.
Can you provide a more reputable paper that backs up this story?
APU, the comments from the gun loons fail to substantially address the issues raised in an intelligent manner.
ReplyDeleteI know that is impossible for Greg to do.
You are going to have to do better than say "because" or demonstrating your legal ignorance.
I should also add that the Telegraph didn't carry the story about Paul Clarke as well.
ReplyDeleteSo, unless you can provide something from a more reliable source than the Daily Mail, I'll consider it's more bullshit.
See This for more about that tyoe of source.
Greg, saying that the Aussies "don't have a bill of rights" is a bullshit explanation. They have the rule of law.
ReplyDeleteI know that's an alien concept to Americans, but it is something that keeps the legal system consistent.
The Aussies Constitution prevents the taking of property without just compensation, which mean the gun owners were paid for the guns they turned in.
SO, why do they have that right, but not one to guns?
As I said, you have to do better than that if you are going to try to explain why the concept of gun rights only exists in the US.
But, Greg, you may know something about grammar, but you don't know a hell of a lot else.
Laci is Michael Corleone, I'm Frankie Pentangeli. "I don't have your brains for the, the big deals (the legal concepts), but this is a street thing (a question of common sense)."
ReplyDeleteThe right to own a gun and carry it around is not a right at all, it's a want. Only biased people with an interest in this thing could possibly get from "right to life" to "right to own a gun."
All right, I agree, the Aussies are worth focusing on. They, and other systems with a fluid idea of rights, are an example of what's wrong with that fluidity. This also points at the fundamental problem with direct democracy. Majorities can always decide to vote out or regulate or take away whatever they want. I prefer a system in which at least some of our basic rights are written for all to see. I'd be happier if the Bill of Rights had a clause specifying that it can never be amended away. The point here is that something has to restrain the impulses of the majority, and in the United States, one such thing is our Constitution.
ReplyDeleteGreg, you are once again bone ignorant, and tragically ill-informed.
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:
"They, and other systems with a fluid idea of rights, are an example of what's wrong with that fluidity."
These are NOT some odd,unusual 'fluid idea' of rights. This is how rights are and have always been. Only in your oddly reasoned mind have they EVER been any different anywhere. Whatever civil rights any society or government has arise from their perception and understanding of moral rights. There are NO absolute rights that exist independent of either the contemporary understanding of moral rights - which changes - or civil rights, which are only those rights which are formally codified into law and enforceable. That isn't some 'fluid idea of rights' it is how rights have always worked, every where, across history.
If a society calls them god given or calls them anything else, that does not change or alter in any way the fact that they are referring to their understanding of moral rights, and drafting their civil rights accordingly. There is NO society, anywhere at any time, which has NOT had fluid, changing, evolving moral and civil rights. The more one resists change, the more likely it is going to bite you in the behind. You CANNOT stop this process in time, and you are deluded if you think otherwise. It not only cannot be done, it SHOULD not be done.
GC then goes on to write: "This also points at the fundamental problem with direct democracy. Majorities can always decide to vote out or regulate or take away whatever they want.
First of all, Australia did not make their gun control laws as a direct society (from wikipedia):
"Low levels of violent crime through much of the 20th century kept levels of public concern about firearms low. However, in the last two decades of the century, following several high profile multiple murders and a media campaign, the Australian Government co-ordinated more restrictive firearms legislation with all State Governments.
Currently, about 5.2% of Australian adults (765,000 people)[1] own and use firearms for purposes such as hunting, controlling feral animals, collecting, and target shooting."
Australia had gun control contemporaneously with the birth of the United States:
"From the beginning there were controls on firearms. The firearms issued to convicts (for meat hunting) and settlers (for hunting and protection) were stolen and misused, and this resulted in more controls. In January 1796, David Collins wrote that 'several attempts had been made to ascertain the number of arms in the possession of individuals, as many were feared to be in the hands of those who committed depredations; the crown recalled between two and three hundred stands of arms, but not 50 stands were accounted for'.[4]"
The Australian federal government coordinated with the state governments; but it was the state governments which enacted the same legislation.
ReplyDeleteApparently Greg doesn't like either democratic (direct vote) or republican(representative vote) style democracy. Guess those freedoms you value, the whole government by the people for the people, is something that goes by the wayside if it conflicts with what you want personally.
Sorry Greg, but that is not how freedom works. You're stuck with consensus freedomwhether you like it or not.
Oh, they gave up their rights because of a media campaign. Well, in that case, they were right to do so. Or perhaps we should think more carefully about what we do.
ReplyDeleteYou're stuck with the same consensus freedom, Dog Gone. Right now, the consensus is on my side. The real question is what do you plan to do about that?