memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llac&fileName=004/llac004.db&recNum=612
Note that this relates to the language of US Constitution Article I, Section 8, clause 15, which states:
The Congress shall have Power To...provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;This relates back to the Constitution's purpose to "provide for the common defence".
Now, most of the references to the Militia from this time period relate to that purpose rather than what "Second Amendment Supporters" would like to purport, which is private arms. Very little mention or thought is given to private arm in early congressional debates.
On the other hand, wouldn't there be some reference to how great it would be to have the highest deaths from firearms and the benefits of being able to shoot someone for no reason if the early Congress held a similar view to the Second Amendment (and Congress' purpose) as many who claim to support the Constitution, especially the Second Amendment, would claim?
Why are those statements only found from people who try to press the notion of "gun rights"?
Laci, your error is in continually thinking that the Second Amendment is limited only to the militia. Since the right is identified as belonging to the people, the militia, its functions, and its purpose are irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteAn amendment that states, to ensure a well regulated militia, the militia is irrelevant?
DeleteNot logical.
Think more like Spock, not a gun loon.
Speak to me in a civil tone, and you might be worth talking to.
DeleteTried that and you called me an asshole anyways. In fact I tried twice, but once an asshole always an asshole.
DeleteAny understanding of the 2A that does not include the militia idea is obviously wrong. Gun nuts like to pretend the first four words don't exist.
DeleteNo, Mikeb, those words exist. But they don't mean what you think they mean.
DeleteThey only mean what YOU say they mean regardless of the documented debate of what the amendment meant by it's authors, which disagrees with your understanding. .
DeleteAnonymous, there are plenty of sources from the beginning of this country to the present who have seen the Second Amendment as an individual right. We've talked about them many times here.
DeleteGreg, we all know you blindly support the bastardized version of 2A interpretation. What else could you do?
DeleteOnly your side could call understanding a right that is clearly identified as belonging to the people a bastardized reading.
DeleteThe bastardized version leaves out the importance and significance of the first four words.
DeleteLaci, I think you might have come up with a way to remove that bothersome militia claim. Let me know what you think. The Constitution is amended to remove the power to raise Armies through conscription. It would even save some money because we could eliminate the selective service office.
ReplyDeleteThen you could claim to have eliminated the unorganized militia and thereby eliminate the claim of being a part of the militia. Except of course in the states such as Oklahoma who have an unorganized militia in their State Constitutions.
By definition an unorganized (no command structure) militia is just mob rule.
DeleteAnon, all citizens are already part of the unorganized militia by falling under the government's authority to induct you into the military. They just don't need you bad enough yet.
DeleteUntil you are called to active duty, you fall under civil law. Even I, a drilling reservist falls under civil law for any crimes committed off duty and off post. If I'm on active duty, I can even be tried twice for the same offense. If I were on active duty and charged with a crime by civil authorities and acquitted, I could potentially be prosecuted under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) for the same offence.
That doesn't disprove my point, but nice dodge.
DeleteI'm sorry I wasn't direct enough for you. The short easy answer is that until called to active duty, citizens fall under civil authority. Therefore, no mob.
DeleteSo first you say unorganized, now you say civil authorities. Who are these "civil authorities?" Is that authority say a sheriff, who according to you is not bound by the Constitution?
DeleteAnon, whether jurisdiction falls to civil or military authority, depends on where the offense occurred and the soldier's duty status. And yes, by civil authority, I mean civilian police forces.
DeleteFor example, Major Nidal Hassan, is being tried under UCMJ regulations because he was on active duty and his crimes took place on a military post.
If the crime had taken place off post, he would be prosecuted unter Texas state law. No worries about mobs or anarchy.
Unlike your sheriff example, do military authorities swear to uphold the Constitution?
DeleteAnon, it just so happens that we discussed this very thing a little over a week ago. Here is a link to that thread, and you'll see that both officers and enlisted soldiers swear to support and defend the Constitution.
Deletehttp://mikeb302000.blogspot.com/2014/02/you-call-yourselves-oathkeepers-really.html
That's certainly better than having people who do not swear to uphold the Constitution.
Delete"I do solemnly swear that I will support, protect and defend the Constitution and Government of the United States, and of the State of Florida; that I am duly qualified to hold office under the Constitution of the State; and that I will well and faithfully perform the duties of Polk County Sheriff on which I am now about to enter. So help me God."
Deletehttp://www.polksheriff.org/Sheriff/Pages/TheOathofOffice.aspx
As you can see, the Oath of office for Sheriff is pretty much the same thing.
So what happened to your statement that sheriffs and police DON"T swear to uphold the Constitution?
DeleteI never said that. I said they don't swear an oath to enforce all laws. Could you please tell me where you think I said that?
DeleteI'm tired of quoting the words of you gun loons, only to have you guys deny what you said anyways. Enjoy your dishonesty. As far as I'm concerned all you guys lie until it is proven a fact. That is the default position when you guys constantly lie, and a reasonable position to take after having been lied to so many times.
Delete