Monday, August 22, 2011

Essay question for Gunloons...

Given that Heller-McDonald says the following about concealed carry;

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott 333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2


Take this statement from DC v. Heller in light of the following passage:

In the 1920s and ’30s, the NRA was at the forefront of legislative efforts to enact gun control. The organization’s president at the time was Karl T. Frederick, a Princeton- and Harvard-educated lawyer known as “the best shot in America”—a title he earned by winning three gold medals in pistol-shooting at the 1920 Summer Olympic Games. As a special consultant to the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws, Frederick helped draft the Uniform Firearms Act, a model of state-level gun-control legislation. (Since the turn of the century, lawyers and public officials had increasingly sought to standardize the patchwork of state laws. The new measure imposed more order—and, in most cases, far more restrictions.)

Frederick’s model law had three basic elements. The first required that no one carry a concealed handgun in public without a permit from the local police. A permit would be granted only to a “suitable” person with a “proper reason for carrying” a firearm. Second, the law required gun dealers to report to law enforcement every sale of a handgun, in essence creating a registry of small arms. Finally, the law imposed a two-day waiting period on handgun sales.

The NRA today condemns every one of these provisions as a burdensome and ineffective infringement on the right to bear arms. Frederick, however, said in 1934 that he did “not believe in the general promiscuous toting of guns. I think it should be sharply restricted and only under licenses.” The NRA’s executive vice president at the time, Milton A. Reckord, told a congressional committee that his organization was “absolutely favorable to reasonable legislation.” According to Frederick, the NRA “sponsored” the Uniform Firearms Act and promoted it nationwide. Highlighting the political strength of the NRA even back then, a 1932 Virginia Law Review article reported that laws requiring a license to carry a concealed weapon were already “in effect in practically every jurisdiction.”

When Congress was considering the first significant federal gun law of the 20th century—the National Firearms Act of 1934, which imposed a steep tax and registration requirements on “gangster guns” like machine guns and sawed-off shotguns—the NRA endorsed the law. Karl Frederick and the NRA did not blindly support gun control; indeed, they successfully pushed to have similar prohibitive taxes on handguns stripped from the final bill, arguing that people needed such weapons to protect their homes. Yet the organization stood firmly behind what Frederick called “reasonable, sensible, and fair legislation.”

One thing conspicuously missing from Frederick’s comments about gun control was the Second Amendment. When asked during his testimony on the National Firearms Act whether the proposed law violated “any constitutional provision,” he responded, “I have not given it any study from that point of view.” In other words, the president of the NRA hadn’t even considered whether the most far-reaching federal gun-control legislation in history conflicted with the Second Amendment. Preserving the ability of law-abiding people to have guns, Frederick would write elsewhere, “lies in an enlightened public sentiment and in intelligent legislative action. It is not to be found in the Constitution.”
Discuss why you believe the Second Amendment grants you a right to carry a concealed firearm--

NOTE: Recourse to State Constitutional provisions regarding carrying of weapons is not helpful for your position since State Constitions can expand on rights given by the US Constitution, but they can not grant more restricted rights than those constitutionally guaranteed.

29 comments:

  1. That's why we love the NRA they are responsive to out demands, and do what they are told......



    And expand away we will 4 states with unlimited concealed carry..... more on the way.

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  2. Really? Ever hear of the Koch Brothers?

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  3. Which Koch?, the brothers or the office supply company with the same name that you Socialist Marxists douches threatened because it had the same last name?

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/04/violent-stupid-leftists-threaten-wrong-koch-company-in-iowa/

    ....ever hear of George Soros....

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  4. Are you capable of making an intelligent comment?

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  5. I've been waiting for one from you for yearsAugust 22, 2011 at 9:30 PM

    When whiney liberal whores learn to pull you heads out of your asses get back to me, if Soros is no problem with all the leftist funding that he does then who cares about the Koch Bros

    So tell me, how are the Koch Bros. are any different from Soros.....

    They are not....

    Both are men with money funding causes they belive in......

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  6. Look up ALEC for your answer.

    Or do you like having unelected persons say what the laws are?

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  7. Americans for Prosperity have engaged in illegal voter suppression practises which included such things as robocalls identifying false polling places and dates for elections in the Wisconsin Recalls, Mass mailings to identified democrats with false absentee ballot information including who to return them to and false dates of elections.

    In Maryland, Similar activity by the Republican Gubenatorial candidates campaingn resulted in multiple felony convictions with significant jail time.

    Show me an example of Soros doing similar activity.

    On the other hand, AFP is a Koch Bros front group.

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  8. Republicans funded by AFP also tried to submit recall election petitions with the names of fake and dead people because they couldn't get enough names of living people to sign theri petitions.

    See this

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  9. Watching whores for SorosAugust 22, 2011 at 10:06 PM

    Laci The Dog said...

    Look up ALEC for your answer.

    Or do you like having unelected persons say what the laws are?


    You mean just like, the....

    EPA,
    BATFE,
    Dept of Energy,

    yup we got lots of the unelected making changes to the law on the fly in the US......

    And what about the Open Society Institute and the Shadow Party....

    Soros Funded ACORN....

    http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/acorn-mark-ritchie/2008/12/22/id/327265

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  10. When Georgie does it,

    http://frontpagemag.com/2011/08/11/the-soros-loophole/

    It wasn’t that long ago that currency speculator George Soros was traveling the globe urging a regulatory crackdown on the same financial sector that has allowed him to become a billionaire 14 times over.

    In late 2008 the preachy political radical who has given more than $8 billion to charities and left-wing causes lectured a congressional committee. “The entire regulatory framework needs to be reconsidered and hedge funds need to be regulated within that framework,” he pontificated.

    Soros got his wish, and the lawmakers his money helped to install in Congress dutifully approved the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (Public Law 111-203).

    Soros talks a good game when it comes to openness and transparency. With an obedient media in tow, he postures as a defender of business ethics and good government but the lofty ideals he espouses apply only to other people. In the end, when his personal interests are at stake, his professed ideals get discarded like yesterday’s racing form.

    So it shouldn’t surprise anyone that this man who has described himself as “some kind of god” now doesn’t want to comply with new disclosure rules that accompany the Dodd-Frank law. To avoid complying, he is closing his $25 billion Quantum funds to investors outside his family.

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  11. ....at it again,


    Criminal Charges Against ACORN Raise Concerns About Its Partnership With Census Bureau

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  12. ....you slobbering Soros-whore?

    gonna let a little comparison front group whoring thru......

    ....or ignore Georgie Whoros' contributon the fucked up govt we have

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  13. Are you capable of making intelligent comments?

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  14. Yup just keep ignoring the questionAugust 22, 2011 at 11:09 PM

    ...about your favorite Marxist/statist whore, George Soros and his supporting front groups all over the US, but it's A-OK since he is a statist.

    Just like how you like to paint conservatives with the nazi/facist brush but ignore 30 million deaths under Comuninism.

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  15. Can you back this up with facts?

    BTW, Soros had nothing to do with ACORN.

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  16. two degrees of seperationAugust 23, 2011 at 12:52 AM

    Soros has clean hands in regards to acorn?

    Soros funds the OSI, OSI funds Acorn....

    Or is that too hard for you to inderstand?

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  17. Hey, two points of IQ, go drink some Koch Industries contaminated water and breathe some of their polluted air!

    At least Soros made money, or you got a problem with that?

    Hypocrite.

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  18. ACORN has clean hands, SOROS has clean hands, in that the only money connected to Soros went to register legal voters.

    The ACORN irregularities with voter registration - not at all the same thing as someone voting illegally, included the majority of which were duplicates of people who were unsure if they had already registered to vote or not. Their percentage of problem registrations was no higher than any other organization that registered voters, btw, including Republican groups. They simply registered a greater total than many similar groups.

    However it was found by independent investigations - plural, check the congressional research papers on it - that the only problems occurred with badly instructed, largely unsupervised low level temporary employees. I'd suggest you also look at the Congressional Research service papers on the claims made by James O'Keefe, because it shows creative editing that significantly ALTERED the video and transcripts to change what people said.

    So, while a few temporary or low level employees screwed up at ACORN, that was the lowest level people, and there is no indication there was any direction or funding from Soros behind their actions.

    The activity - which IS illegal - which we are criticizing from the Koch Brothers and Americans for Prosperity appears to be from the top down, and the worst of it is pretty cleary from the upper levels, permanent employees, and it directly benefits the Koch Brothers. To assume they are equivalent activities by the Koch Brothers, and Soros neglects the differences that the Koch Brothers directly benefit from the illegal activity, and Soros does not.

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  19. I give the gun loons failing grades for their inability to answer the question posed.

    Their failed attempts to show their lack of intelligence also fail for
    1) inability to back up their claims.
    2) Inability to provide similar illegal activity to that of the Koch Brothers by Soros.

    Obviously, the gunloons have been ingesting high levels of environmental neurotoxins leading to diminished intellectual capacity.

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  20. Laci is correct in stating that Soros does not have connections to ACORN, not any direct or directing connections. He does have ties to many other groups, a few of which in turn have some nominal links to ACORN, along with links to many, many, many other groups. To try to claim that Soros is controlling or responsible for the activities of those groups is ludicrous. This is like claiming someone is responsible for their friend's cousins' neighbor's brother's actions because of once buying girl scout cookies from a friend's child.

    For example:

    Brokaw sits on the board of the Robin Hood Foundation, a charity that, according to its website, targets poverty in New York City by applying "sound investment principles to philanthropy." The foundation awarded ACORN a $456,000 grant in 2003 and a $365,000 grant in 2004. Brokaw does not appear to have played a role in the grants because he didn't become a member of the board until 2005 according to the guidestar.org database, but these are nevertheless the left-wing circles in which he travels.

    The Soros Fund Charitable Foundation, as in George Soros, a major bankroller of the left, gave the Robin Hood Foundation a $9,859,453 community development grant in 2000.


    So, from a grant to someone who knows someone in 2000, the right wing conspiracy crazies concoct a plot to direct voter registration in 2008. Ludicrous! Absolutely ludicrous!

    Equally nuts, maybe more so, is this authority cited:
    http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/acorn-mark-ritchie/2008/12/22/id/327265

    What a crock of crap. It is total bullshit, it does not hold up under fact checking of any kind. Newsmax is as unreliable as batshit crazy Orly Taitz and newsnet daily.

    As someone born and raised in Minnesota, a participant in the election recount process, I would point out a couple of things of which you seem to be ignorant. The panel of judges which oversaw the recount included a Democrat, a Republican and an Independent. The recount process referenced in the newsmax article tries to suggest some funny business by Ritchie - that alone makes it clear that the article is wrong. And what else you may be unaware of? There was a single prosecution for voter fraud - a Republican, who voted for Coleman. You should be so lucky as to have such a meticulous, accurate and transparent election process, including recounts, as we have in Minnesota. We are the gold standard, if you have any knowledge whatsoever of election law. And we do it with consistently the largest percentages of voter turnouts in the nation. You need to do better research, rightwing nutjobs!

    Both Laci and I are meticulous researchers, and I'd bet we both read faster and with better comprehension and retention, and at a higher grade level than any of you. And we are able to do so in more than just English.

    Maybe you should try mastering English as well as polishing up your research techniques before you form your opinions.

    IF facts have any role in forming those opinions which I doubt.

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  21. Interesting discussion about Soros, but I was thinking about the "reasonable restrictions" allowed under the heller dicision.

    We need more of them and they need to be enforced federally, that's all.

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  22. Lawyers are Hypocrites tooAugust 23, 2011 at 5:12 PM

    Laci The Dog said...

    At least Soros made money, or you got a problem with that?

    Hypocrite.


    So it is ok to influence lawmakers as long as you make money at it?

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  23. Our Hypocrite who is too dumb to be a lawyer wrote:

    Lawyers are Hypocrites too wrote, quoting
    Laci The Dog: "At least Soros made money, or you got a problem with that?"

    (My understanding of what Laci was pointing out is that Soros MADE his own fortune, while the Koch brothers simply inherited theirs.)

    Hypocrite.

    So it is ok to influence lawmakers as long as you make money at it?

    That wasn't what Laci was stating at all; you appear to have chronic language faliures.

    As Laci was pointing out, and so am I, the Koch Brothers donate a lot of money that influences politics so as to directly benefit themselves. That is corruption, not freedom of speech, and certainly not philanthropy.

    Soros has donated money to worthy causes, including political ones, that influence policy and legislation in ways which do NOT directly or even indirectly benefit himself, but rather the donations benefit others. THAT is philanthropy, freedom of speech, and a not corrupt manner of political spending.

    Simple - follow the money; if it goes in a circle, back into their own pockets, it is corruption. If it diminishes the ability of the individual to influence government, in favor of powerful individuals disproportionately, or corporations, it is corruption.

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  24. "Discuss why you believe the Second Amendment grants you a right to carry a concealed firearm-- "

    It does not necessarly mean you have the right to carry a concealed weapon. You may have to open carry in some places or conceal carry in others depending on what the local regulations state. But I would cite Heller as granting an individual right to bear arms. Heller did not give an exhaustive list of what restrictions were or were not allowed - only that outright bans are forbidden.

    So I can see why you might be confused in thinking we expect the right to carry concealed weapons in all public locations. Most gun rights supporters would be ok with open carry as well I would bet.

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  25. Jim,
    are you capable of reading a passage, understanding it, and then making an intelligent comment about the passage?

    Please reread the passage.

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  26. Your question was "Given that Heller-McDonald says the following about concealed carry; ... Discuss why you believe the Second Amendment grants you a right to carry a concealed firearm-- "

    I was merely agreeing with you that the Constitution does not guarantee a right to carry a "concealed weapon." It only guarantees the right to "bear arms." I take it to mean that some places can require open carry and others can require concealed carry. Now the latest Supreme Court Heller ruling decided that the bearing of arms did not have to be in relation to the militia, but instead the 2nd Amendment defines an individual right. That is the most current decision I could find on the matter.

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  27. If I may interject, gentlemen.

    Jim wrote: "So I can see why you might be confused in thinking we expect the right to carry concealed weapons in all public locations. Most gun rights supporters would be ok with open carry as well I would bet."

    Heller does not give the right to any kind of carry, specifically. There can be bans of many variets for many situations - no guns on the floor of Congress, no expanded magazines. The laws of places such as the UK and Norway that limit firearms would be perfectly legal restrictions under Heller.

    Jim, you repeat ad nauseum that Heller is a SCOTUS decision, and therefore has more importance, more weight, than Laci's opinion. You are looking at the immediate time frame, the narrow, short term window for understanding.

    Yes, the majority opinion is significant; but that does not make it correct any more than the Dredd Scott decision was correct. When Justice Taney - yes, I know the Justice writing the opinion - wrote the majority decision, asserting that blacks could not have legal standing or be citiziens, according to the constitution, and that Congress could not regulate slavery.

    In fact, the decision was disastrous. Disastrous on the individual level, disastrous on the national level. By no valid metric was it correct, or right, or lasting, or a success. But it was a SCOTUS decision, that attempted, badly, to interpret the U.S. Constitution. And for a while, it was effectively the law.

    That is the kind of larger context in which Laci is critical of the Heller decision. That it is a bad decision by the SCOTUS, that it will not wear well over time, and that it will have some very dire results in the interim during which it does stand.

    You favoring the decision, because it suits your preferences, rather than a more reasoned, objective, and legally educated one is like something the slave owners in the south might have said about Dredd Scott being a SCOTUS decision.

    Yes, it might be a SCOTUS decision, but that does not make it a good decision, a well-reasoned and correct decision, a decision which will stand up over the longer, larger context of time, or a decision which will be positive and constructive instead of very destructive.

    THAT is what Laci is talking about, and he knows his subject.

    Your reliance on the majority of the SCOTUS decision on Heller is as bad, as unwise, and as bloody as if you relied on Dredd Scott to be correct because it was made by a SCOTUS majority.

    I don't think you will generally find Justice Taney on the right side of history. In his lifetime, he was accused, I think correctly, of the Dredd Scott decision being an illegitimate use of judicial power.

    I think you will find similar criticism of the current SCOTUS following the decisions of Scalia, (Sc)Alito, and Thomas.

    Laci is a student of history; he is looking at the decision as someone who knows history in detail, and has a meticulous knowledge of the law as well. I agree with him, and firmly believe he will be on the correct side of how history views, and subsequently reinterprets Heller, the way it did with Dredd Scott v Sanadford. In that sense, his viewpoint is likely to have more weight, more importance and signficance, and be more correct than the majority Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court.

    You gentlemen are writing at cross purposes in these comments. I hope Jim that I have adequately explained this to you now.

    As for the other gun nuts...I suspect explaining anything to them is a waste of keyboard strokes and breath.

    The ability to reason critically or in any depth is lacking; their minds are closed, they do not think.

    Their positions are those purely of emotion, and not their better emotions at that. If that were even in question, the blognomen they select would underline that point about them.

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  28. Dred Scott would have also gone against the precedent set by Somersett’s Case (1772) which was widely taken to have held that slavery was illegal in England:

    The state of slavery is of such a nature, that it is incapable of being introduced on any reasons, moral or political; but only positive law, which preserves its force long after the reasons, occasion, and time itself from whence it was created, is erased from memory: it’s so odious, that nothing can be suffered to support it, but positive law.

    Since US law was originally largely derived from the common law system of English law, which was in force at the time of the Revolutionary War, the ruling in Somersett’s Case would have also been precedent in US law.

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  29. dog gone - I agree with almost all of what you said. Heller may one day be overturned by another Supreme Court or some legislation passed by Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court. I have never argued otherwise.

    I have only pointed out that Laci seems incapable of acknowledging what the decision states and that as of now it is the current ruling of the Supreme Court and therefore is a legal decision by the Supreme court until further notice.

    And I still hold firm to my belief that actual Supreme Court Justices have more say in what the Supreme Court will decide than Laci.

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