From the most definitive research on Columbine, Dave Cullen's book Columbine, via the article 7 Myths about Columbine:
Myth #3: The Columbine killers targeted certain kinds of students.We also heard, about Columbine, that those two mass shooters would have been stopped if someone had a gun. There were two armed cops who were unsuccessful in stopping those two shooters. Likewise, there was a security guard, and numerous armed students, mostly trained veterans, on the Oregon campus - it was NOT a gun free zone - and they did NOTHING to prevent the tragedy from taking place. In fact, no civilian with a gun has EVER prevented or stopped a mass shooting in the United States, even when on the scene.
Truth: Although initial news reports claimed the Columbine killers had targeted minorities, jocks, and Christians, the killing was indiscriminate. Their initial plan was to blow up hundreds of students in the cafeteria. When the bombs failed to go off, they killed students randomly. Interestingly enough, Eric’s friends described him as a sports enthusiast, and two of his best friends were Asian and African American.
Myth #6: Cassie Bernall was martyred for her faith in God.
Truth: According to the eyewitness under the table with her, Cassie was shot when Eric poked his shotgun under the table and said, “Peekaboo.” The 911 tape verifies this testimony.
The martyr story arose from the testimony from another student in the library, Craig Scott (brother to victim, Rachel Scott), who recounted a conversation that took place across the room. Valeen Schnurr was the one who actually professed her faith in God, and this took place after she was shot. As she lay bleeding, she prayed, “Oh my God, don’t let me die.” Dylan turned around and asked her, “God? Do you believe in God?” Valeen said, “Yes, I believe in God.” When the killer asked why, she replied, “Because it’s how my parents raised me.”
Forgot about Jeanne Assam, huh?
ReplyDeletePenigma/dog gone is hardly a reliable source, especially considering, she quotes the trashy rag, the Inquisitor. I'm trying to think of a lesser credible source on the planet and can't come up with one worse than her. However, if you are looking for an agenda driven pathological psycho, she can't be beat.
ReplyDeleteorlin sellers
I'll let the others list the easily Googled occurrences of a lawful gunner stopping a mass shooting, but in the case of UCC, the lawful gun owners interviewed all made careful risk assessments, and determined that either they would be mistaken by law enforcement or that they could not cross the open quad without being targeting. Putting to bed the gun control cabals' lie that armed citizens will shoot wildly and killed collateral civilians.
ReplyDeleteThe mass shooter in Oregon was a big fan of mass shootings generally, and of Columbine in particular.
ReplyDeleteHe appears to have orchestrated his shooting to resemble Columbine in many respects.
Which is the gist of the original post; this is an excerpt.
Like Columbine, there were claims the Oregon shooter targeted Christians. Those were not true any more than the claims of that from Columbine.
"Like Columbine, there were claims the Oregon shooter targeted Christians. Those were not true any more than the claims of that from Columbine."
DeleteReally? Not true? Except the fact that some of the victims that survived the shootings and other witnesses are being interviewed by the media and they are telling the world exactly what happened. Christians were specifically targeted. This concerns Oregon, not Columbine. I don't know if it was true about Columbine but it is certainly true in the case of Oregon.
Dog gone logic: because it wasn't true at Columbine, it can't possibly be true at a separate event 16 years later.
Delete"In fact, no civilian with a gun has EVER prevented or stopped a mass shooting in the United States, even when on the scene."
ReplyDeleteYou mean except for these?
"In 5 incidents (3.1%), the shooting ended after armed individuals who were not law
enforcement personnel exchanged gunfire with the shooters. In these incidents, 3 shooters
were killed, 1 was wounded, and 1 committed suicide.
The individuals involved in these shootings included a citizen with a valid firearms
permit and armed security guards at a church, an airline counter, a federally
managed museum, and a school board meeting."
https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2014/september/fbi-releases-study-on-active-shooter-incidents/pdfs/a-study-of-active-shooter-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013
Or perhaps this one?
"The hospital has a policy barring anyone except on-duty law enforcement officers from carrying weapons on its campus, a spokeswoman for the Mercy Health System said.But Yeadon Police Chief Donald Molineux said that "without a doubt, I believe the doctor saved lives.""Without that firearm, this guy (the patient) could have went out in the hallway and just walked down the offices until he ran out of ammunition," the chief said."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/24/pennsylvania-hospital-shooting_n_5618672.html
I think Dog Gone said "prevented," not stopped mid-way or cut short.
DeleteSSG - As well as the events listed by Eugene Volokh:
Deletehttps://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/
Look up above Mike, DG said prevented OR stopped, two different things. So are you really suggesting that if a permit holder doesn't stop a criminal early enough to prevent ANY casualties, it doesn't count?
DeleteA very high standard considering that the criminal pretty always gets to make the first move,
“The purpose of the pistol is to stop a fight that somebody else has started, almost always at very short range.” ---Jeff Cooper
It would be interesting to apply the same standard to other gun laws.
No, she said "prevented or stopped"
DeleteVolokh just wrote an article on that:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/
Plus I remember one discussed here that didn't make the list. A diner shooting in Louisiana where you mocked a CCW holder for taking a bullet.
I think Dog Gone said "prevented," not stopped mid-way or cut short.
DeleteIn that case, Jules Winnfield has a question for you.
If you do indeed speak English, Professor, perhaps you'd edify me on how this:
In fact, no civilian with a gun has EVER prevented or stopped a mass shooting in the United States . . .
. . . could mean "'prevented,' not stopped or cut short."
Besides, even if you weren't about a billion light years off with your pathetic excuse for Dog Gone, is "merely" stopping or cutting short a massacre not a very desirable thing?
Well, Genius? I'm waiting.
"Prevented or stopped," yes, my mistake.
Delete"Likewise, there was a security guard, and numerous armed students, mostly trained veterans, on the Oregon campus - it was NOT a gun free zone - and they did NOTHING to prevent the tragedy from taking place."
ReplyDeleteWell, lets start out with the security guard being unarmed, so in the real world, he's what's called a target in these situations.
As for the school not being a gun free zone, its more accurate to state that it isnt illegal for permit holders to carry on campus. On the other hand, it seems to be generally against school rules,
"Possession, use, or threatened use of firearms (including but not limited to BB guns, air guns, water pistols, and paint guns) ammunition, explosives, dangerous chemicals, or any other objects as weapons on college property, except as expressly authorized by law or college regulations, is prohibited."
http://www.umpqua.edu/safety-security-information
This situation is similar to that in my home state of Minnesota. While it isnt illegal to carry on campus, a student caught doing so would be looking at getting expelled for violating school rules. And employees would face termination. This would certainly have a chilling effect on people choosing to carry.
Much has been written of one of the victims, a man named Chris Mintz. He spent some quality time in the Army as an infantryman and has trained in MMA. He tried to stop the shooter bare handed. And of course, I'm wondering if Mr. Mintz, being trained in combat, might have kept his skills up after his discharge and maybe had a carry permit.
Yes, as the article said, there was at least one permit holder on the campus, about two hundred yards from the site of the shooting. And about the time he heard of the situation, the police were already on hand. However, Mr. Mintz was face to face, with evil and attacked bare handed. Want to bet things would have turned out differently if he had been armed?
BTW, the Oregon college also had an alumnus who has experienced a confrontation with a similar evil, and he is also an infantryman,
“Dancing With the Stars” contestant Alek Skarlatos, the Oregon National Guardsman who gained international recognition for helping to stop an armed terrorist aboard a French train in August, was a former student at Umpqua Community College, where a gunman killed at least ten people Thursday.
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2015/10/02/french-train-hero-alek-skarlatos-leaves-dwts-to-be-at-umpqua/
Lets finish off with Columbine,
ReplyDelete"We also heard, about Columbine, that those two mass shooters would have been stopped if someone had a gun. There were two armed cops who were unsuccessful in stopping those two shooters."
Yep, there were two cops actually engaged the shooters very early into the event, however they never entered the school. In fact, following the then current procedure for such events, the first SWAT teams entered the school about an hour and a half after the shooting started.
What happened at Columbine did result in the now current active shooter tactic of aggressively hunting down the shooter and engaging them.
"In fact, no civilian with a gun has EVER prevented or stopped a mass shooting in the United States, even when on the scene."
ReplyDeleteThat sounded fishy. Sure enough one google search later and there are several examples of armed civilians stopping a mass shooting.
http://controversialtimes.com/issues/constitutional-rights/12-times-mass-shootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/
In fact, no civilian with a gun has EVER prevented or stopped a mass shooting in the United States, even when on the scene.
ReplyDeleteAre you absolutely allergic to the truth, you lying "gun control" fanatic?
Armed civilian Jeanne Assam shot a dirtbag many times as he attacked the New Life Church, in Colorado Springs. Sure, it was determined that he killed himself with his final shot, but you're not really going to argue that he would have killed himself at that time if he'd not met such effective resistance, are you?
dog gone barks: In fact, no civilian with a gun has EVER prevented or stopped a mass shooting in the United States, even when on the scene.
ReplyDeleteReally?! How would you know that? Think about it. That's like saying, no drunk driving accident has ever been prevented or stopped because a sober driver took the drunks keys and drove instead. SHEESH!
orlin sellers
Every one of you guys picked the same minor point to dispute. How about the two main points?
ReplyDeleteYour "main points" aren't really relevant to either the gun rights nor the gun control argument. Our "minor points" respond directly to your concluding statement, complete with your capitalization for emphasis.
Delete"How about the two main points?"
DeleteWell Mike, are you referring to the picking certain students or the Christian thing? So far, its pretty hard to make a determination on that in the case of the Oregon shooter.
You often claim that the location of a hooting such as this is determined by what the little voices are telling him. In this case, we don't really know yet.
But at the end of the day, the "why" they are shooting someone might be important to law enforcement because they work at a strategic level. Permit holders work at a tactical level. It doesn't matter what the little voices in his head are telling him because a permit holder is only concerned with stopping the immediate threat.
Minor point? She used all caps and ended with that zinger.
DeleteEvery one of you guys picked the same minor point to dispute. How about the two main points?
DeleteWhat makes her first two "points" any more important than her last one (you know--the one that's the most blatant lie)?
Yes, TS, minor point. The two main points were enumerated and in bold.
DeleteThe two main points were enumerated and in bold.
DeleteThe "main points" are that the killers actually didn't discriminate in their targeting, and that Cassie Bernall wasn't really murdered for her Christian beliefs?
What the hell is the relevance, in a debate about gun regulation, and what would you have us say about them?
What would I have you say? Is that really your question, Kurt?
DeleteIs that really your question, Kurt?
DeleteWhat the hell do you mean, "is that really [my] question?" It's what I said, and I mean what I say.
What you call Dog Gone's "main points" are, as far as I can tell, utterly irrelevant to the gun policy debate, and I really don't give a damn about them. Since you're so desperate for us to address those "points," and since I don't care enough about them to have anything to say about them, I'm open to suggestions.
The fact of the matter is that any citizen that happened to be armed at the time has no duty to protect anyone other than themselves. So in light of that, how many of the armed concealed carry people were shot at any of the mass shootings? I would bet it is a relatively low number. Does it mean you will never be shot? Of course not. But it does mean you would have at least a chance of defending yourself if it came down to you being stuck in a room waiting for a shooter to walk through the door.
ReplyDeleteYou seem disappointed that the armed civilians did not charge into the building with guns blazing. The problem is that is your made up image of what concealed carry people act like. Then when they act in a reasonable fashion you are shocked so you (gun control people in general not necessarily you Mike B) claim they were cowards for not acting.
Myths? Are you sure these were Myths or just the original Narrative that has since collapsed? Was it a 'Myth' that Ferguson wannabe rapper Michael Brown was a 'gentle giant' or was that, too, a Narrative Collapse?
ReplyDeleteBut, there are plenty of Myths perpetuated, as we see here everyday, by the gun control Nazis.
orlin sellers
How do you know if it was going to be a mass shooting that was prevented by a CCW holder?
ReplyDeleteWe have CCW holders stopping criminals across America every day. Who can say if these criminals were going to kill one or a dozen people if they weren't stopped?