These two video clips tells the story better than I could hope to do.
from Voice of Choice.org :
Finally, a voice of reason.
For too long, the abortion discussion has been dominated by angry, nasty protests fueled by
individuals and organizations that thrive on sensationalism and extremism. Now it is our turn.
Voice of Choice" was established as a calm, measured response to anti-abortion activists who engage in misguided,
raging protest tactics that are often ill-informed and only serve to victimize women, pro-choice professionals,
law-abiding businesses and unaligned bystanders.
We use email, telephone and social media in peaceful, person-to-person counter-protests, against groups that target
abortion facilities, providers and patients, as well as their families and communities.
We don’t question anyone’s right to express opinions and ideals; we challenge their bullying tactics and their contempt.
If you are willing to volunteer your time or talent to make calls, send emails, or help in counter-protests,
please join us.
dog gone:
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing that Mr. Stave's house will be the scene of some self-righteous picketing by the "You're a precious human till you're born" contingent.
I forget, but maybe you have the stats. How many Pro-choice advocates have killed Anti-abortion leaders? Or attacked them physically, or attempted to intimidate them? I'm pretty sure the answer is ZERO but I'm sure that one of gunzloonz friends (who just happens to be a "ProLife" type will be able to provide.
Remember, "Gunz don't kill abortomurderers. Assholes with gunz, gutless pieces of shit with gunz with telescopic sights, shooting from ambush or deluded GODbotz with handgunz in houses of worship, kill abortomurderers.".
http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
ReplyDeleteAccording to the statistics, about 1.21 million prochoice advocates killed anti-abortion leaders in the United States alone in 2008.
According to the statistics, about 1.21 million prochoice advocates killed anti-abortion leaders in the United States alone in 2008.
ReplyDeleteIsn't that speculation on your part,Jim?
As is the possibility that those lives could have lived until full term?
As they say, Jim, if you don't like abortion--don't have one.
I would be willing to bet that if asked close to 100% of people alive today would say they are happy their mother did not abort them. Based on this belief, I assume nearly all aborted people would also not be in favor of being aborted if they were given the chance to answer the question.
ReplyDeleteI guess I am pulling a Mikeb here and saying it is true simply because I thought about it and it makes sense.
But lets make this a scientific poll. Who here wishes their mother had aborted them?
Jim:
ReplyDelete" Based on this belief, I assume nearly all aborted people would also not be in favor of being aborted if they were given the chance to answer the question."
Such comments are precisely the reason that Anti-Women's choice assholes are despicable. The fetus is not, under law, a person. If the fetus was a person, abortion would be murder. Anti-abortion, anti-sex education and anti-birth control nonsense from the KKKristian Reich is about controlling the lives of women, not preserving the "sanctity of life".
Let me know when you have unedited video of a fetus proclaiming its desire to live. Until then, what you're saying is nothing but speculation.
It's magical thinking like yours that enables assholes like George Tiller's murderer to justify their heinous crimes. Fuck Operation Rescue and its many ignorant offspring.
"The fetus is not, under law, a person."
ReplyDeleteAnd slaves were property, under the existing law of the time. Does that make it right?
Nice to know you're pro-death. I'll bear that in mind.
Demo - it is not video, but here is written testimony from "fetuses" that were not in favor of being aborted:
ReplyDeletehttp://joseromia.tripod.com/survivors.html
"If the fetus was a person, abortion would be murder."
Ding Ding Ding - we have a winner. Abortion is indeed murder, just state sanctioned murder. You can think of it as the same as the death penalty.
Tennessee Budd said...
ReplyDelete"The fetus is not, under law, a person."
And slaves were property, under the existing law of the time. Does that make it right?
The illiterate from Tennessee demonstrates the logical fallacy known as the red herring.
Even better, Jim presents in utero written testimony! How did the pen get in there without performating the amneotic sac? You people are certainly creative.
Problem is that this is a moral-ethical quesition: when life begins, not a legal one. There are religions that disagree with you that life begins at conception. Those religions have as much validity as your and are protected under the first amendment.
Science posits that brain activity should be the determinating factor for being a person, rather than just tissue. Otherwise, you would be harming a person if you trimmed their hair, cut their toenails, removed cancer cells, did an emergency appendectomy and so on. The brain has not developed in a foetus until the 24th or 25th week.
Therefore, I hardly consider a foetus at that early stage of development to be "human".
If you people are so against government intrustion, why do you insist on interfering in this most personal of decisions. One that should be made by a woman and her physician--not politicians, not clergy, or medically ignorant busybodies who are not willing to contribute to raising the child.
It's not your body, or your business, so fuck off!
im said...
ReplyDeleteI would be willing to bet that if asked close to 100% of people alive today would say they are happy their mother did not abort them. Based on this belief, I assume nearly all aborted people would also not be in favor of being aborted if they were given the chance to answer the question.
Hey, Jim, I bet if you polled all the dead people from wars,they wouldn't want to be dead either.
Except that since an embryo doesn't have a sufficiently working neurological tissue (much less a brain) there would be no way to ask such a question.
If you had read my earlier response to this topic, you would know that I advocate for the same rule of thumb to determine if you are a living person as we use to determine if you are alive or dead. In other words, brain function. You can be declared legally dead while still having minimal brain stem function; but effectively, YOU ARE DEAD.
Without that higher brain function, you are not a person, you are just human tissue. That was why it was the correct thing to do to let Terri Schiavo die when her brain had liquified and was sloshing around inside her skull. She was not, for all intents and purposes - and I do mean ALL - inhabiting her body any longer.
I would bet on any day of the week and twice on Sundays that my knowledge of the bio-sciences exceeds yours, by a rather large margin.
You are arguing for a superstitious, magical thinking view of reproduction.
There is no logical evidence whatsoever to support the premise that a human being comes into existence at conception.
We have about the right time frame for permitting abortion in this country. It is brain function which distinguishes between a person, and tissue.
That is why it is possible to perform surgeries like appendectomies, or medically necessary amputations, without it being killing a person - but it is not possible to remove a brain without doing so. There is a physiological basis for our essence as human beings. It is our brains.
Absent a developed one, you are tissue, not a human being.
We will allow you to be considered a human being so long as you possess a brain, even if, like some commenters here, you don't do much with it.
Jim wrote "If the fetus was a person, abortion would be murder."
ReplyDeleteDing Ding Ding - we have a winner. Abortion is indeed murder, just state sanctioned murder. You can think of it as the same as the death penalty.
By NO known, rationale, reality based reasoning are fetuses persons. They may or may not eventually become a person, but that decision is up to the women who ARE persons. Therefore, this is not murder.
You can create a fertilized cell which becomes an embryo and then a fetus out of a skin cell. YOU could become a mother, in that sense, but whether or not it progresses is up to human beings who are developed enough to make that decision.
There is a difference between tissue and human beings Jim. You don't seem to understand what that distinction is.
It is well addresed by discussions and reasoning by more educated and informed individuals than you religious right wing nuts.
As a woman, on behalf of myself and my sisters in gender, I'd like you to take your own beliefs and practice them----- as far away from me and my uterus as humanly possible.
Jim, TS, perhaps you failed to note that this is a post about pushing back at the abusive, harassing, even terroristic approaches used by the anti-abortion fanatics.
ReplyDeleteThe position of anti-abortion nut jobs is a theological one, not one supported by any medical science. It is about belief, not knowledge.
You and your fellow fanatics don't get to enforce your religious views on the rest of us. It is unethical in the extreme to force one human being to make their body available for the survival of another human being - much less a few cells which may or may not have a potential to eventually become a human being.(You seem for example to be unaware of the number of miscarriages relative to pregnancies.)
You cannot take anyone's blood or other body bits without their consent. You cannot force another person to provide you with additional skin for a skin graft. Nada, nothing, not even something that a person may choose to discard can be taken or used without consent.
The only place of which I am aware that any such practices occur are forms of involuntary organ 'harvesting' occurs are from prisoners in Communist China.
If you don't approve of THAT, you do not approve of a woman's body being USED by a fetus or embryo (or morula, blastocyte, zygote, etc.) without consetn EITHER. The moral issue is the same- consent, and control of one's own body.
As to the feelings about abortion by individuals, I AM ADOPTED, as is the case with my sibling and two step siblings, and with many of my friends. I can tell you with confidence that those of us conceived in the period before abortion was legal emphatically wish that it was an option for our birth mothers to have, rather than agree that any woman should ever be forced to endure maternity against her will. Having been active in adoption rights organizations, working to have greater conformity between the adoption laws of different periods of time, during which I have met a number of adoptees who were the product of rape and/or incest, that belief has a much greater consensus than you might expect.
To believe that human beings do not have a right to control their bodies is to believe in a form of slavery. It is an immoral position you are taking.
And yet, it is so often the same people who are anti-abortion that are anti-controceptives. Apparently you wish to force women to be pregnant against their will. That is no better than trying to legalize rape.
Dog Gone, thanks for participating in the discussion. I hate it whan MEN argue about abortion.
ReplyDeleteI'm pro-choice because it's only WOMEN who will have to face this decision and what MAN could possibly have anything of value to say about it, unless you're a Saudi man, of course. Then you'd have plenty to day about it.