The Amish are in some ways different from other groups that are reluctant to rely on law enforcement, like family members of domestic abusers who are also police or other authority, and certain ethnic groups. But the considered decision to do so here by the Amish does have some elements in common with those other groups. If we are to speak about relying on law enforcement, and not on personal weapons for our defense and resolution of conflicts, we need to address the problems with law enforcement being successful.
I hope this post will stimulate that discussion. I am so delighted to read this resolution by the Amish as a follow up to when I first came across news of this event. Sadly, there has not always been a similar response, notably where sexual abuse and sexual assault has been the crime rather than a criminal hair cutting and assault.
It raises the question for me, are Amish women able, as a condition of continuing to live in their communities equally able to avail themselves of law enforcement in cases of domestic abuse? This is still domestic violence awareness month!
CARROLLTON, Ohio — Leaders within Ohio's Amish community faced a soul-searching question after what they say were hair-cutting attacks against several followers of their faith. Should they cooperate with authorities or adhere to their beliefs of forgiving one another and keeping disputes private?
In the end, church bishops decided to seek help from the outside. "They didn't feel they could get it stopped any other way," said Timothy Zimmerly, a sheriff in Holmes County where authorities say an Amish bishop and his son were held down while men from a breakaway Amish group used scissors and a clipper to cut their beards.
Five men were arrested and accused of cutting the hair of several people, offensive acts to the Amish, who believe the Bible instructs women to let their hair grow long and men to grow beards and stop shaving once they marry.
While the attacks in recent weeks might seem bizarre to outsiders, they have struck at the core of the Amish identity and tested their principles. They strongly believe that they must be forgiving in order for God to forgive them. Often that means handing out their own punishment and not reporting crimes to law enforcement.
One couple refused to press charges even after acknowledging that their two sons and another man came into their house last month, held them down, and cut the father's beard and the mother's hair.
The husband and wife who live near the village of Mesopotamia didn't report the attack and only talked after authorities said they had received a tip, said Trumbull County sheriff Thomas Altiere.
"They want to turn the other cheek, let God take care of it," said Altiere, who lacked enough evidence on his own to make an arrest.
'Not for revenge' The wife of an Amish bishop who said her husband's beard was cut by members of the same splinter group last week said they decided to press charges so that his attackers would get help and to prevent anyone else from getting hurt.
"This is not for revenge," said Arlene Miller, who recounted how several men came to their farmhouse near Carrollton in eastern Ohio and tried to get at her husband's beard while he struggled with them.
"We don't believe in fighting," she said. "We do believe in turning the other cheek, but in this case there's nothing wrong with struggling to get away."
Two of those arrested a week ago are the sons of the breakaway group's leader, Sam Mullet. He has denied ordering the beard-cuttings but says they were in response to criticism he has received from other Amish religious leaders about his leadership practices, including excommunicating people in his own group.
He lashed out at those who asked law enforcement to get involved.
"One thing for sure is, I'm not calling the law in against one of the other Amish people or against you people," Mullet said at his farm outside Bergholz, a village where he established his community in 1995. "I don't do that. I have no right to call the sheriff to defend myself."
Ohio's Amish communities are centered in rural counties south and east of Cleveland. They have a modest lifestyle and are deeply religious. Their traditions of traveling by horse and buggy and forgoing most modern conveniences distance themselves from the outside world and symbolize a yielding to a collective order.
While it's uncommon for the Amish to take their disputes public and enlist authorities, there is no central authority to decide so it usually falls to the church leaders or those involved.
Culture of forgiveness
This year, members of Amish communities in Ohio who federal prosecutors say lost millions in an investment deal operated by a fellow Amish man asked a judge to let them settle the matter out of court. The judge rejected the request.
Authorities in Missouri prosecuted an Amish man a year ago on sexual assault charges after Amish family members of the victims and bishops came to authorities. The prosecution of an Amish individual was very rare in the rural county, said prosecuting attorney Mark Fisher.
"If it weren't for Amish coming forward, we would not even have known about it," he said.
It's more typical for police to get involved if the Amish feel they are in danger or when they're involved in a high-profile crime and have no other choice, said David Weaver-Zercher, a professor of American religious history at Messiah College in Grantham, Pennsylvania.
He co-wrote a book, "Amish Grace: How Forgiveness Transcended Tragedy," after a gunman shot 10 schoolgirls, killing five, inside a one-room schoolhouse five years ago in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania.
The Amish were widely praised for their immediate forgiveness after the shooting and reaching out to comfort the gunman's widow.
Interacting with police after the shooting changed some perceptions among the Amish about dealing with law enforcement and created friendships that continue, Weaver-Zercher said.
"Many people gained an increased level of regard or comfort after what happened," he said. "There's often cases where Amish people become close to authorities, and in some ways those walls are lowered."
That story's old.
ReplyDeleteWhy hasn't this here blog covered in detail the 200 Mexican nationals and the 2 U.S. agents killed because of Operation Fast and Furious?
I can point to the lack of your coverage of that gun-related event as evidence of your far-Left hypocrisy.
Me, I'll enjoy watching Issa take down Eric Holder and then simmer Obama over sealed indictments for the rest of his miserable term in office.
fascinating. thanks for posting it.
ReplyDeleteHey, welcome back Ser8. No this story is not old, further it relates back to a recent post about domestic violence when the abuser is also a police officer, and the use of a firearm for self-defense.
ReplyDeleteMikeb and I differed over whether that was self-defense or manslaughter in that instance,
We have covered the deaths in Mexico. Sorry you missed it.
As to Issa.....he has spent a whole lot of money, past and present, in his hearings. I have yet to see him produce a single finding of any significance, on any subject. Or Rep. Peter King either. Issa and King are nothing but ineffectual impotent grandstanders who use their positions to waste time and money playing to fools like you, in a narrow segment of their base who enjoys fear mongering. Your amygdala must be throbbing, LOL!
Or would you lie to show me where Issa has ever produced the promised take downs, and uncoverings of misconduct, etc.?
Make yourself some popcorn.
You're in for a long wait.
Serr8d, We have written about Fast and Furious about 6 or 8 times,maybe 10, which is about a fair and balanced amount of attention to what has been from the beginning a trumped up story by the ATF and Obama haters.
ReplyDeleteGlad you're enjoying it though.
Mike, that 'trumped up story' you are furiously airbrushing is a major scandal that might well bring down the Obama presidency.
ReplyDeleteRemind me: How many people died because of Watergate ?
What we know is that Holder authorized this end-run attempt to discredit the 2nd Amendment; 2,000 weapons unaccounted for went to the Sinoloa cartel. This disaster exploded when ATF agents, whistleblowers, disclosed the facts. There've been hundreds of deaths, including Brian Terry, U.S. Border Patrol agent.
Make no mistake...we will get to see a special counsel appointed; Holder will get the see the underside of Obama's bus; then we'll connect the dots, and climb on up.
To say this scandal is worse than Watergate is not hyperbole.
You should try to cover this more closely; today, for instance, Issa on Meet the Press accuses Holder of hiding facts, a coverup...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/16/ftn/main20121062.shtml
So much for the Left's attempt to undercut the 2nd Amendment. Couldn't happen to a nicer lot, really.
So, Jimbo, how much would you care to wager this "might well bring down the Obama presidency"?
ReplyDeleteI can give you odds.
Problem is, Issa was briefed on this operation and it was initiated during the NRA-sponsored Bush admin.
I don't think Bush was President when 'Fast and Furious' was created in 2009. 'Project Gunrunner' began under Bush in 2005, and through 2008 it was a fairly successful sting operation, netting low-level crooks who ran guns into Mexico. 'Fast and Furious' began in 2009, well under Obama's watch; that's when the failures (and deaths) crept in.
ReplyDeleteObama said Holder knew of 'Fast and Furious' before Holder said he knew. They are beginning to trip over their own lies.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/13/obama_spoke_about_fast__furious_before_holder_claimed_he_knew.html
There are five key accusations against BATF and Holder's DOJ made by ATF whistleblowers and other sources within the federal government:
1. Our government instructed U.S. gun dealers to proceed with questionable and illegal sales of firearms to suspected gunrunners.
2. Our government intentionally kept Mexican authorities in the dark about the operation, even over objections of their own agents and in violation of the Brownsville Agreement.
3. This was supposedly authorized in order to "catch the big fish" gunrunners, an escalation of Bush's original Operation, but no explanation has been given how this enhanced Operation would be done without telling the Mexican authorities, without operating within Mexico to track the weapons, or how they would arrest or indict foreign nationals without Mexican involvement, etc. Seemingly, it's a 'straw operation', designed to bring down the 2nd Amendment. That was the real intent.
4. Fact: the weapons that the BATF let "walk" to Mexico were involved in the deaths of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and ICE agent Jaime Zapata, as well as at least hundreds of Mexican citizens and civilians.
5. Since the death of Brian Terry on Wednesday, December 15 2010, the Obama administration has engaged in a full-blown cover-up of the facts behind what has come to be known as the "Gunwalker Scandal".
Remember, it's not the sex; it's the lies under oath about the sex that'll get ya.
Did no one else notice that the haircutting henchmen were named MULLET?
ReplyDeleteIn my view, this one, Clinton's indiscretions in the Oval Office, and even Watergate were all trumped up scandals. There was wrongdoing in each one but the opposition in each case made believe they were more than they were, feigning outrage and indignation.
ReplyDeleteAnd notice the pattern, which perhaps says something about the country.
Watergate brought Nixon down, the Lewinski thing ALMOST brought Clinton down. This nonsense about the guns won't touch Obama.
Read it and weep, Serr8d.
I see that Serrh8r is still afraid to use his own photo when he posts, not that it's a surprise.
ReplyDeleteHe belongs to that subset of REALLY KKKrazee rightwingers that didn't even know there WAS a war going on in the Mid-east until around 1/21/2009.
"Why hasn't this here blog covered in detail the 200 Mexican nationals and the 2 U.S. agents killed because of Operation Fast and Furious?"
For the same reason that Mikeb302000 posts or doesn't post all sorts of things, becuase it's his blog. You can post it all at your own blog (which I'm sure you've done). The only real difference is that we're not likely to come over there and whine about how unfair you are. Crybabeez wit teh gunz, they'd be laughable if they weren't so homicidal.
Jimbo's still wrong. Fast and Furious is the same opertaion as Gunwalker. Apparently, Jim believes having the same operation--called by a different name--means it's a different operation.
ReplyDeleteIt's a non-story.
The thing Serr8d needs us to believe is unbelievable: 1. that Cartel members wouldn't have had weapons were it not for these operations. 2. Holder is somehow covering up an operation that was started about 3 years before he became AG.
As with all of Serr8d's claims- there's no "there" there.
In point of fact--the most likely fallout will rebound on the NRA.
"I see that Serrh8r is still afraid to use his own photo when he posts, not that it's a surprise. "
ReplyDeleteWhy doez this bother you zo? And doez it equally bother you that Laci, Dog Gone, MikeB302000, etc. are alzo not uzing their real photoz?
"Holder is somehow covering up an operation that was started about 3 years before he became AG."
ReplyDeleteHe is also claiming that he has no knowledge of it. That level of incompetence would also be acceptable grounds for termination.
Is Serr8d's name Jim or Jimbo? I just wanted to clarify that I am not Serr8d if that is what JadeGold thinks.
ReplyDeleteGood point, Jim, I can handle you.
ReplyDeleteAnd I suffered the same confusion as well.
Serr8d makes a good case for moderation since he is about as off topic as you can get.
Maybe he just needs attention and has to troll here since he gets a bad reception when he tries to post his views elsewhere.
Actually I don't find Serr8d offensive at all in this thread.
ReplyDeleteHe's about as off topic as you can get.
ReplyDeleteModeration is to keep people on one topic and not allowing them to hijack a thread.
Ser8, I'll make you a deal.
ReplyDeleteAt some point in the next week or so, I'll write about Fast and Furious if you both stay on topic, and contribute as many comments ON topic as you have made comment on this post off-topic.
C'mon guys, that last one was funny as shit. I'm startin' to like Serr8d all over again. Take it easy on him with that delete button, will ya?
ReplyDeleteLet's see. The Amish thing is pretty recent, but the ATF gunwalking strategy used in fast and furious has been around since 2007.
ReplyDeleteI call that hijacking a thread.
Deleting these idiots only protects them from showing their stupidity.
But since you lot enjoy the laughs...
"but the ATF gunwalking strategy used in fast and furious has been around since 2007."
ReplyDeleteSomeone tell Holder that. Apparently the incompetent buffoon had no idea that such a major operation continued to happen under his watch.
Since not my real name won't acknowledge this--
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesting article:
http://reason.com/blog/2011/07/11/theres-still-no-evidence-that:
There's also the word of Acting ATF Director Ken Melson, who told Oversight last week that Holder had no knowledge of Fast and Furious. The entire transcript from that hearing has not been released, but according to the Washington Post, “people familiar with [the hearing] said that [Melson] indicated that Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. did not know about [Fast and Furious], that it would be unusual for other Justice Department officials in Washington to know the details and that the U.S. attorney’s office in Phoenix was overseeing the program.”
If anonymous weren't asleep in his civics class, he would know that Holder, as AG is the chief law enforcement officer of the United States government, amongst his other duties. I doubt someone with that extensive a brief is going to know all the goings on of his agency.
Although, I do appreciate Not My Name's opinion of Holder's godlike qualities. While I know him and will vouch that he is a pretty good person: Any attribution of Godlike omniscience is wholly inappropriate to any human being.
On the other hand,Not my real name does have a rather inflated opinion of his own self-worth, which possibly could explain his desire of perfection in others.
Especially when he is far from perfect himself.
I'll contribute on Mike's posts mostly, because it seems there's no love lost between me and the two dogs, especially the frilly one.
ReplyDeleteThe Jade person doesn't even exist anymore AFAIC. For good reason: just read any of his replies to any of his 'enemies'. Sure, I'll tangle with the worst of 'em, and I have, but not in a controlled environment where my responses are so tightly and emotionally weighed and anything at all might cause it to never show up.
(Back to the post topic: I did read in the NYT a bit on the Amish beard-and-hair-cutting again just yesterday; but the first mention of it I'd seen in my Twitter stream over a week before this blog post; so, in blog time, this post was, indeed, very old. Rip Van Winkle old, in fact.)
Not My Real Name said, Apparently the incompetent buffoon had no idea that such a major operation continued to happen under his watch.
ReplyDeleteAside from the incredible arrogance of calling a man like Holder names, as if you are superior to him in any way, the Fast and Furious operation was NOT a "major operation" until the ATF haters got ahold of it. It was what Laci pointed out, an operation under the jurisdiction of Phoenix.
Like any top executive, Mr. Holder might not have read every single memo to reach his office. Why do you find that hard to accept? Never mind, I know why.
Shorter Jimbo: Waahhhhhh!!
ReplyDeletebecause it seems there's no love lost between me and the two dogs, especially the frilly one.
ReplyDeleteHey, we aren't too impressed with your bullshit.
I notice you couldn't say anything of substance in your last reply.
So, unless I comment in perfect lockstep with you, my comments 'lack substance' ?
ReplyDeleteLaci, you are much too controlling. You'll never wind up happily married if you keep on this way.
(Unless there's room in Jade's mother's basement for the two of you... )
No, if you don't stay on topic and back up what you say with facts, they lack substance.
ReplyDeleteBut, that's above your level of intlelligence. Hear about the cretin from Arizona who moved to Tennessee? They thought he was a genius.
Any further comments about the Fast and Furious topic on this thread will be deleted.
Find a more appropriate thread for your comments--or is that also above your level of intelligence?
Laci has been married for some time, silly Ser*. You are so consistently lacking in factual substance.
ReplyDeleteSerhatred, if you don't start addressing the topic on this thread, expect to be deleted, no matter how stupidly amusing your ignorant comments are.
ReplyDeleteSerhatred does love to add to the Anthology of Laci fiction collection.
ReplyDeleteLaci, we're approaching a veritable mythology of stories about you. While their speculation is funny in its own way, on a low brow level, they do consistently underestimate you, to their detriment.
Serh8red, which of us are you considering the 'frilly one'? Because I consider myself pretty much equal to Laci on most topics. There are a few areas where one of us exceeds the other in expertise, but for the most part we are pretty evenly matched.
ReplyDeleteAs to your comment about this being an old thread, the initial events happened over a week ago, but what this is about was the Amish deciding to involve the police in resolving the conflict, which was a new development that I found worthy of discussion in the larger context of people relying on law enforcement rather than taking the law into their own hands.
It is that development which is new, and which you have failed to understand is the pertinent thread here. I thought I was quite clear aobut that in the intro to the news article.
Wow, back to the ORIGINAL subject, yes, breaking in to anyones home, putting your hands on them, forcing ,yes forcing them to do anything, should be a hate crime and an act of terrorism.
ReplyDelete