Friday, February 17, 2012

Speaking of Militias.........

Rebellion or Insurrection  - 18 U.S.C. § 2383
“Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”

Seditious conspiracy  - 18 U.S.C. § 2384
“If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.”

That sums it up.

Claiming you're a social club, while engaging in paramilitary training, and accumulating firearms and explosives, including illegal materials and weapons for the purpose of insurrection is not credible. It's stupid, and it shows how easily this lot of warrior wannabes cave in on their big talk when they're held accountable for it.

I have no great faith in their courage in combat if they are such lying chicken-livered woosies in a court room.

But it goes to the heart of the idiots who are so ill-educated and ill-informed as to fail to understand what a militia - a REAL militia is and is not.  It's been defined, in the constitution, in court decisions and in law, most notably the Militia Act of 1903.

It is badly misunderstood, including by delusional people who actually find it plausible that invading forces have turned tail in the face of the firearms held by Billy-Bob Tractor Cap and his idiot son John, to borrow a colorful phrase used by a friend of mine long ago in referring to the poorly founded assumptions of some of our less cerebral fellow-citizens.  From an earlier story in the NYTimes, linked in this story:
"The court filing said the group, which called itself the Hutaree, planned to kill an unidentified law enforcement officer and then bomb the funeral caravan using improvised explosive devices based on designs used against American troops by insurgents in Iraq.
“This is an example of radical and extremist fringe groups which can be found throughout our society,” Andrew Arena, the F.B.I. special agent in charge in Detroit, said in a statement. “The F.B.I. takes such extremist groups seriously, especially those who would target innocent citizens and the law enforcement officers who protect the citizens of the United States.”
The Hutaree — a word Mr. Stone apparently made up to mean Christian warriors — saw the local police as “foot soldiers” for the federal government, which the group viewed as its enemy, along with other participants in what the group’s members deemed to be a “New World Order” working on behalf of the Antichrist, the indictment said. "
Here is the story, courtesy of the great 'Gray Lady', the New York Times :
Michigan Militia Defended as ‘Social Club’ at Trial of 7

The Clayton, Mich., property of David B. Stone Sr., leader of the Hutaree, which officials say plotted to kill police officers.


  1. Oh goody, another FBI fairy tale with the help of a paid informer.

    The Manufactured Menace from Michigan -- Take Two
    orlin sellers

    1. Seems to me that this is NOT a case of the FBI 'manufacturing' anything.

      If it weren't for the machine gun, the large cache of ammo, the illegal firearms, the bomb makings, you might have more of a point than the one on the top of your head.

      There have been cases where I was skeptical of the FBI use of informants. but this doesn't appear to be one of thsoe.

      Anonymous are you one of the run around the woods and pretend you're legitimate militia when you're not crowd yourself?

    2. C'mon Dog Gone, these are just people who believe in that "shall not be infringed" thing. In a way, I find them more honest and consistent than the other so-called gun-rights activists.

    3. Because what you really believe is that all gun owners are just looking for a chance to overthrow the government. We know what you think, Mikeb.

    4. No, we only believe that when the stated purpose of the group says that, and when they begin to act on it.

      There IS NO LEGITIMATE MILITIA other than that of the National Guard as of 1903. Prior to that, any militia HAD to have some basis of authority from the area government in which it existed, which private paramilitary groups do not and never have.

      All the gun owners, as I believe it was Crunchy here, who embrace the fantasy that other countries, like Japan in WW II were afraid of private citizens with firearms, or those who believe that their private firearms are to keep them free from government are full of crap. It is not all gun owners, but that reflects sentiments from many of them.

      It is stupid, and it is not a legitimate justification or right of gun ownership.

    5. You are correct to say that from the standpoint of rights, we have no need to justify our guns to you or to anyone else. Sadly, American politics often requires winning popular opinion, but we're succeeding there.

    6. Greg, I believe you really do know what I think, but you keep exaggerating it and twisting it so you have something better to argue against. What I actually do think and say is not so bad.

    7. No, what you say is bad enough. But I'm not exaggerating. The practical effect of what you say would be far fewer than half the number of current legal gun owners. It would also hand a list of legal guns to the government. If you don't think that confiscation would come next, talk to California and Canada.

      Add Laci into your proposals, and now we have an active denial of the right to firearms. Add Dog Gone into this, and the burdens a person would have to go through just to be approved would make private ownership all but impossible. Add Democommie in, and the government goons would curse at us whenever we apply.

      Do you understand why I say that your side wants to ban private ownership?

  2. BTW, Unorganised militia (or sedentary militia, or reserve militia, etcetera) is precisely that.

    It is a reserve body which forms a possible draft pool should the militia need reinforcements.

    It does not confer any more rights than having a draft card makes you a member of the military.

    Of course, that may be why the likes of Ted Nugent are so interested in trying to claim this status.

    It is as stupid as saying "it's an individual right".

    yes, it's an individual right to belong to a properly created militia.

    1. Correct! Give that man a gold star!

    2. It takes more than a name and a costume to be a legitimate militia; it also requires some formal recognition by the government, both state and federal.

  3. DG, planning to kill a cop is hardly an attempt to overthrow the government. Unless of course you cede that cops are the local standing army.
    orlin sellers

  4. "DG, planning to kill a cop is hardly an attempt to overthrow the government."

    Planning to kill ONE LEO is a felony. Planning to kill SEVERAL LEOs by a GROUP of people IS a criminal conspiracy. A conspiracy to intimidate, terrorize or assassinate lawfully sworn public servants is treasonous/seditious behavior.

    Go back to reading your gunzporn and leave the critical thinking to people who understand the concept, moron.

  5. Democulo, nice try, but it still doesn't reach the level of trying to overthrow the US government. Hell, they weren't even trying to overthrow the school board.
    orlin sellers

    1. Orlin, you are persistently a really stupid commenter.

      Seriously, you write some of the most foolish things I've ever seen.

      This group was not only going to try to overthrow the local police, they were planning to overthrow any local authority as a first step to taking over the area government. The police would be the first line of local authority they were likely to encounter, with greater military involvement as they executed their plans.

      You perhaps are again being selective in acknowledging the facts, including the kind of weaponry and who that weaponry was targeting as opposition.

      But then you still stupidly believe in false justifications for the American Revolution. I suggest you acquaint yourself with a good historian, not the crap one sees embraced by the right like Barton, and in particular that you start reading primary source documents. They're very easily available.

      But you probably don't want to do that; it might force you to rethink your positions, and that would no doubt be difficult and painful for you.

      But try anyway.

  6. DG said, "Orlin, you are persistently a really stupid commenter."

    That's hilarious...
    What's stupid is for anyone to think these country bumpkins intentions, no matter how dumb they were, was to try to overthrow the US government. That's just plain goofy.
    orlin sellers

  7. No follow up on the acquittals? You followed the claims of the government about "accumulating weapons and explosives" like sheep... Not a single piece of evidence supported this at trial... In fact, the group had fewer members and fewer weapons than when the investigation started and the only "explosive" actually possessed by any defendant was the black powder used by one member to manually reload ammunition... By the way, I had a chance to speak with all the jurors -- all 15 including the alternates -- were united on not guilty verdicts. So this was judge and jury. Next time don't be so quick to cast a verdict...