Friday, May 20, 2011

Cultural Norms; Culture Wars and Right Wing Ignorance - for Mike G.

Mike G. in commenting here made the observation that the founder of Islam, the prophet Mohammed, was a pedophile, way back in the 7th century.

Just for giggles, to point out the prevalence of child marriages in Europe, within Christianity, I did a quickie google search.  For openers:
"Child and teenage marriages in medieval Europe - common as a cup of tea."
"John McLaughlin, PhD, writes in his article MEDIEVAL CHILD MARRIAGE: ABUSE OF WARDSHIP"....(yes, there are entire books devoted to the topic of European Christian child marriages)

And then we have the institutionalizing of it in Roman Catholic canon law:
"By 'child' in this context is meant a male or female human being above the age of 7 -- for either gender -- and below the age of 14 for males, and 12 for females. This follows medieval canon law, in recognizing these as the limits of infancy and puberty" for purposes of marriage.
This site goes on to list a number of the more famous examples, like:

-"Thus, for example, when the Wife of Bath boasts of having had five husbands since the age of 12, she is not casting herself in the role of child bride, technically speaking, at least not in medieval terms. Lee Patterson's discussion of child marriage in Peter Beidler's lovely new edition of The Wife of Bath, is thus irrelevant to the present discussion, except as it relates to Richard and Isabel; Christine de Pisan, for example, was already aged 15 when she was 'given' to her husband, and therefore according to medieval definition an adult woman."
Bianca of Savoy, Duchess of Milan was married aged 13 (1350), and aged 14 when she gave birth to her eldest son, Giangaleazzo (1351).
Theodora Comnena was aged 13 when she was married King Baldwin III of Jerusalem (1158).
Agnes of France was 12 when, widowed, she was married to Andronicus Comnenus, Byzantine Emperor (1182).
St Elizabeth of Portugal was aged 12 when she was married to King Denis of Portugal and gave birth to three children shortly thereafter.
Caterina Sforza was betrothed aged 9, married aged 14, and gave birth aged 15.
Lucrezia Borgia was married to her first husband aged 13 and bore a son within a few years.
Beatrice d'Este was betrothed aged 5 and married aged 15.
So, is Christianity a religion of pedophiles? Because if we are going to fault Islam for the practice, shouldn't we fault Christianity for embracing and formalizing and institutionalizing it as well, from before the 7th century onwards?  Then there is the Ethiopian Orthodox church which still encourages marriages of girls as young as 7.

I object to the application of a double standard, where something is used as an excuse to condemn one group, while totally ignoring the same thing in another similar or related group.

Lets look at child marriage in Judaism:
I was lazy; I just grabbed the handy wikipedia article for this one, because the citations would have just been too darn long.  The tradition is one of marrying off  THREE YEAR OLDS, based on texts common to the Talmud and the old testament of the Bible.  So, Mike G.....are you going to condemn Christianity and Judaism, because their common founders practiced marriage with 3 year old girls?  I'm just curious, since you clearly don't seem very familiar with eithe Christiantiy or Judaism, and even less familiar with Islam.

Child marriage by religion

In Judaism

Main article: Child marriage in Judaism

Child marriage was possible in Judaism, due to the very low marriageable age for females. A ketannah (literally meaning little [one]) was any girl between the age of 3 years and that of 12 years plus one day;[1] a ketannah was completely subject to her father's authority, and her father could arrange a marriage for her, whether she agreed to it or not.[1] According to the Talmud, if the marriage did end (due to divorce or the husband's death), any further marriages were optional; the ketannah had the right to annul them.[2] If the father was dead, or missing, the brothers of the ketannah, collectively, had the right to arrange a marriage for her, as had her mother,[1] although in these situations a ketannah would always have the right to annul her marriage, even if it was the first.[2]

The choice of a ketannah to annul a marriage, known in Hebrew as mi'un (literally meaning refusal/denial/protest),[2] lead to a true annulment, not a divorce; a divorce document (get) was not necessary,[3] and a ketannah who did this was not regarded by legal regulations as a divorcee, in relation to the marriage.[4] Unlike divorce, mi'un was regarded with distaste by many rabbinic writers,[2] even in the Talmud;[5] in earlier classical Judaism, one major faction - the House of Shammai - argued that such annulment rights only existed during the betrothal period (erusin), and not once the actual marriage (nissu'in) had begun.[6]

Now please, Mike G, and your fellow ignorant bigots on the right wing fringe, NOTICE THE DATE on the following.  This is an article about 21st century child marriage in ISRAEL as part of traditional Judaism.   Betrothal btw? Defined by actual intercourse traditionally, not just a promise to marry later.
http://blogs.forward.com/sisterhood-blog/136547/
Jewish Child Brides — Why the Barbaric Practice of Marrying Off Young Girls Persists


By Elana Maryles Sztokman

"Ever since the marriage of Rebecca and Isaac over three millennia ago, the children of Abraham and Sarah have toyed with the practice of betrothing their daughters at very young ages. Of course not all scholars agree that Rebecca was actually three years old when she took the fateful decision to feed Eliezer’s camels and cement her destiny as a Jewish matriarch. Realistically, many scholars (including Maimonides, Tosafot and Sifrei, for example) argue that the age is a fabrication. Nevertheless, the mythology of the girl-bride has relentlessly taken hold, to such an extent that even now, thousands of years later, the practice is frightfully tenacious."
Mike G. tasked me as embracing Islam despite the problems with how women in some Islamic countries are treated.   He apparently decided that was because I was liberal; he was wrong in his conclusion.  I have a view different from his because I am far better read, far better educated, for example, on subjects like the occurrence of child marriages (and they occurred for boys too) in the three Abrahamic religions, and in non-Abrahamic / polytheistic religions.  What Mike G. would do well to understand is that a different conclusion can arise not out of a deficiency of ideology but from different information - information he clearly lacks.

I would suggest before he joins up with the right wing culture wars, including the rampant hatred for Islam, that he be better informed and far far better educated in forming his opinions - and in criticizing mine.  That willingness to condemn without fact or sufficient knowledge epitomizes for me the concept of an ignorant bigot.

Now, Mike G........do you want to tell me again how there is nothing in common between Islam, and Judaism and Christianity?  Because I'm just warming up on the things you apparently don't know about all three, particularly the things they have in common.  As a 'liberal woman' I like to be fact based, reality-rooted, and really, really well read.

32 comments:

  1. Don't even get me started on crackpot fringie groups like the perverts in the Branch Davidians.

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  2. The one thing they do have in common, Christianity, Judaism and Islam is extreme fundamentalist fringe groups. These fundamentalist extremists share a major element in common with each other, hatred.
    How old was Lucrezia Borgia when she started her affair with her brother? She was the illegitimate daughter of Pope Alexander VI and was alleged to have been his lover as well.
    But you can't expect logic or the example of history to make any difference or even dent the rubbery carapace enclosing the mind of a common garden variety bigot.

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  3. Thank you microdot. I do think we can find other things in common - like a common monotheism - besides the fringies.

    You are right on the mark though about hatred and bigotry, especially from the fringies.

    Nothing is ever quite so virulent as beliefs about sex and/or religion.

    We just had a major example of that today in the Minnesota legislature, where a right wing fringe hatred monger, one who is not in fact a legitimate seminary-trained minister, gave such a vile opening (so-called) prayer that he was denounced by the REPUBLICAN speaker of the house and the REPUBLICAN majority leader as well.

    You can't beat religion as a pretext for some people to use as a pretext for hatred, bigotry, misinformation, and divisiveness.

    Loot at that ignorant, bigoted fool in Florida who burned the Quran as a perfect example, or the nut-jobs that protested the Islamic community center in NYC.

    The atrocities and obscenities done in the name of religion are easily among the worst in human history, and that includes our time, not just the past.

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  4. They (the fringies) DO however give us some unintended laughs at their expense however. Look at the 'end of the world' predictions for tomorrow as an example.

    They are hilarious. I think the best I've seen so far to capitalize on the idiocy was something Laci found, a pet sitting service for those who were convinced they were going to raptured up to heaven.

    Btw, that kind of thinking is shared by Michele Bachmann, and is part of her international affairs thinking!

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  5. I made my comment to you in the previous article, Ann "crazy person" Barnhardt.

    We don't necessarily read the same things, but I would say that in my own way, I'm just as well read as you are...just different subjects. But I will do a little more research next time. ;) How's that?

    Mike G.

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  6. I can understand the virulent athiest who lambastes all religions better than I can the Christian who attacks Islam.

    My own take on it is there's some good in all of them. And that good is probably consistent with the level of NOT criticizing the others. Or maybe I should say NOT generalizing about the others and criticizing that.

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  7. I like the new avatar MikeB!

    MikeB wrote:"I can understand the virulent athiest who lambastes all religions better than I can the Christian who attacks Islam."

    How about the virulent Christian who attacks other christians AND other religions? We have one here in MN, who after yesterday, could go a long way towards sinking the political aspirations of both Michele Bachmann and Tim Pawlenty...
    http://penigma.blogspot.com/2011/05/bradlee-dean-will-he-become-minnesota.html

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  8. Mr Goofus sez:
    I'm just as well read as you are...just different subjects.

    reading doesn't mean very much unless you can comprehend what you are reading, understand it, and then use it wisely.

    It means even less if what you read is inaccurate and without basis.

    Mr. Goofus needs to understand that he needs to be critical about what he reads and not just pick people who sound good to him.

    I'd love to take him on in the Economics front.

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  9. Mizz Laci, thanks for not using derogatory euphemisms for my real name./sarc I do comprehend what I read , thank you very much.

    If you're a Krugite and believe in Keynesian economics, then I have nothing to say to you. Personally, I think Krugman is not as smart as he thinks he is. So he went to an Ivy League school...so did Obama, how's that working out for you? He's got a Nobel Prize??...so do Barack Obama, Jimmy Carter and Al Gore. Keynesian economics has never worked and for Krugman and Obama to think they're smarter than anybody else, that they can make it work where others have failed is a fool's errand at best and destructive to the economic well being of our country at worst.

    Thanks again for your restraint.

    Mike G.

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  10. I can vouch to you Mr. G. that Laci is male. Very male.

    I think you are wrong about Keysnian economics, and I'd be happy to go a few rounds with you.
    My father, an investment banker, began hauling me off to listen to presentations by leading economists starting when I was 10. I probably know more about the subject than I do religion.

    I'd have to go back and check, but I think you may be challenging Laci on his college degree subject... at least, one of them.

    And Obama is working for me and for this country far better than the previous president. Since he was responsible for nailing bin Laden, I think a lot of people are happy with him. Certainly our stature has improved drastically internationally as well.

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  11. DG,

    Obama hasn't done anything for me and neither did the last administration. Clinton was able to ride the coattails of Reagan and the economy pretty much flourished until the beginning of the GWB Presidency. Of course, we'll never know how his Presidency would have effected the economy because of the attacks on 9/11. That sort of threw a monkey wrench into whatever policies Bush wanted to pursue.

    Two recent articles I've read on the economy;

    http://www.eternityroad.info/index.php/weblog/single/the_new_feudalism_vi_the_new_new_feudalism/

    This one is rather long and is more about economic philosophy and predictions for the future.

    The next one is a diatribe against Keynesian economics;

    http://liberalsmash.blogspot.com/2011/05/economic-future-if-world-doesnt-end.html#axzz1N2QCMB5f

    And yes, I sometimes hold my nose and read Krugman.

    My apologies to Mr. Laci. Since his avatar doesn't discern gender, I guessed he was of the female gender, also because of the nic. Laci is considered more of a girl's name where I'm from, although we do have a few Carrolls, but no boys named Sue.

    Everything I know, I learned from the School of Hard Knocks. In fact, I've got a PHD in it, so I go by life experience, not necessarily what I've read in books or had someone repeat to me ad nauseum in a classroom or lecture hall. And yes, I did have some college education.

    And I still emphatically state that Keynesian economics has never worked and will never work.

    Mike G.

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  12. I have to say I find Mike G. an especially interesting character. He doesn't resort to name-calling and general nastiness even when confronted with that from our side. But, as if that's not enough, he's now criticizing Bush. This makes him a rare conservative who doesn't defend GWB. I can only hope to hear more about that in the near future.

    And let's face it, some of those links sure seem like the kind that come from a "well-read" guy.

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  13. Mike B, Thanks for the kind words. I have always criticized GWB. Especially after getting us into that mess in Iraq. I gave him a pass on Afghanistan, but we should have gone in there, done our business and got the hell out. I personally think we could have either arrested or killed Bin Laden years ago, but what do I know?

    Mike G.

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  14. I'm coming to enjoy Mike G's comments very much as well, both here and on penigma.

    I join Mikeb's observations Mr. G!

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  15. Ah, the school of hard knocks that explains quite a bit.

    My University classmates are the idiots who have done so much for the economy: left and right. Major slacker here wanted to find a job that would allow him to drink coffee and read foreign language newspapers for a living. Instead, I found myself doing things I found fairly repugnant to the concept of ahimsa on a major scale.

    I found your understanding of economics fairly simplistic. The reason "Keynesian" theory is favoured is that governments are there to create jobs. Business looks at the bottom line and couldn't care less about job creation. Thus "keynesianism" can be favoured by both sides of the political spectrum--governments can create jobs and are expected to do so.

    My question for you Mr. G is what do you know about fractional reserve banking? You might find that is a better explanation for the root of all evil with economics in that concept.

    Also, the US once balanced the budget and got rid of the national debt--what was the outcome of that policy?

    Also, you mention the Dow Jones. Please demonstrate that you know the difference between the Dow Jones and the economy? FYI, they are not the same.

    Also, what do you know about the psychology of economic bubbles? There is more to economics than just the superficial economic indicators. In fact, economic indicators just show what the offices collecting them want you to see.

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  16. Mr. G. An extra credit question for you.

    When the concept of free trade entered the UK political arena it was championed by:
    A) The Conservatives
    B) The Liberals

    I am assuming that the same side of the spectrum brought it about in the US since one of the early political acts in the War for Independence was against a large British monopoly (and you thought it was about something else!).

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  17. I'm still waiting for a response from Mike G to Laci's comment.

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  18. "I'm still waiting for a response from Mike G to Laci's comment."

    I made a response last night, but either I had too many characters, or it said I used html prohibited by your site. I e-mailed it to Mike B and asked him if he could figure out what I did wrong or to see if he could post it for me. I mailed it last evening, but if Mike B is unavailable, I can send it to you Dog Gone.

    Mike G.

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  19. If MikeB doesn't have a chance to put it up in the next 24 hours, please do send it to me tomorrow, and I will see what I can do! Thanks!

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  20. Sorry MIke, I didn't see it. Please resend.

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  21. I'm posting this for MikeG, with apologies for any technical difficulties, as a two-parter:

    Laci,

    "Major slacker here wanted to find a job that would allow him to drink coffee and read foreign language newspapers for a living."

    Nice work if you can get it, although it sounds kind of boring to me.

    "I found your understanding of economics fairly simplistic. The reason "Keynesian" theory is favoured is that governments are there to create jobs."

    Actually, government doesn't "create" jobs, but instead is supposed to create an environment whereby private individuals or businesses can create jobs. Government can make it tough for private enterprise to create jobs via excessive regulation and/or by excessive corporate taxation. Remember, corporations don't pay taxes, the people who buy their products actually pay the taxes. In the same way, every regulation that is added that a company has to obey adds cost to the product. That cost is also passed on to the end consumer. Simplistic it may be, but that's how it works. (According to http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/22917.html , the US has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world, exceeded only by Japan.)

    "My question for you Mr. G is what do you know about fractional reserve banking? You might find that is a better explanation for the root of all evil with economics in that concept."

    So far all I know about fractional banking is what I read here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

    Seems like a screwed up system to me. I'm a believer in going back to the "gold standard", although even some of the Austrian School of Economics economists have said that without fractional reserve banking, we might not have had the technological advances we have today.

    "Also, the US once balanced the budget and got rid of the national debt--what was the outcome of that policy?"

    According to this article; http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123491373049303821.html , it was way back in 1835. The next year or so, the United States went back into debt and never looked back. The initial reason was because of "easy credit" and land speculation. Sounds kind of familiar in lieu of recent events, eh?

    "Also, you mention the Dow Jones. Please demonstrate that you know the difference between the Dow Jones and the economy? FYI, they are not the same."

    I don't recall mentioning the stock market or the Dow Jones, perhaps it was mentioned in one of the articles I linked in the previous post. I don't invest in the stock market. I do know however, that the Dow Jones doesn't represent the real economy. It seems to go up and down with no rhyme or reason.

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  22. continuing for MikeG, part 2:

    "Also, what do you know about the psychology of economic bubbles? There is more to economics than just the superficial economic indicators."

    An interesting question; Not many people think of the psychology of economic bubbles even though everyone is effected in one way or another. Since I'm a Carpenter and build houses, the recent crash of the housing market was very unfortunate for me even though I build what are called "second homes" or vacation cabins, generally semi-custom or custom houses. During most of the recent recessions in the early eighties and nineties, the second home market wasn't effected very much. The massive influx of illegal immigration along with the crash and unfair hiring practices by unscrupulous contractors also had an effect on our work. Getting undercut on a bid by over thirty percent because the other contractor hires illegal workers and doesn't have the same overhead we do, is patently unfair, but I guess that's life.

    The War for Independence was mainly started because of the "Tea Tax", along with some other issues.
    Free Market principles were started by "classical Liberals", which are not to be confused with "Progressive Liberals." They are not the same. The closest proximation we have today of "Classical Liberals" are what are called Libertarians.

    Damn, that's a lot of typing. I hope I was able to satisfactorily answered your questions.

    Mike G.

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  23. sounds kind of boring to me.
    That's because you probably have a romanticised idea of the occupation I'm describing.

    Job creation and corporate taxation:

    Are you aware that the US unemployment figures are probably very low compatrred to what the real unemployment rate probably is. First off, it doesn't count school leavers/seeking first jobs, long term unemployed who have lost benefits. But, that's sort of an aside.

    While "conservatives" focus on the nominal corporate tax rate of 35%, that’s almost a meaningless number compared to the effective tax rate, AKA what corporations actually pay to the government. And that tax rate is among the lowest in the industrialized world.

    By taking advantage of myriad breaks and loopholes that other countries generally do not offer, United States corporations pay only slightly more on average than their counterparts in other industrial countries. And some American corporations use aggressive strategies to pay less — often far less — than their competitors abroad and at home. A Government Accountability Office study released in 2008 found that 55 percent of United States companies paid no federal income taxes during at least one year in a seven-year period it studied.

    The paradox of the United States tax code — high rates with a bounty of subsidies, shelters and special breaks — has made American multinationals “world leaders in tax avoidance,” according to Edward D. Kleinbard, a professor at the University of Southern California who was head of the Congressional joint committee on taxes. This has profound implications for businesses, the economy and the federal budget.

    Sorry, but corporations are under no obligation to "create" jobs, they are interested in profit--not charity. Wouldn't there be job creation given that 55 percent of United States companies paid no federal income taxes.

    Sorry, but that's leed to higher profits, not more jobs.

    If your knowledge of fractional reserve banking comes from Wikipedia, then you are definitely showing that you are out of the loop on the topic.

    Likewise the infatuation with commodity based currency.

    YOu mention the Dow Jones in relation to the Minimum wage, which you also dislike. I would note that the United Kingdom did not have a minimum wage up until 1999. Are you going to tell me that the UK was an economic paradise before it adopted a minimum wage? Again, simplistic.

    Especially in light of your comment:
    The massive influx of illegal immigration along with the crash and unfair hiring practices by unscrupulous contractors also had an effect on our work. Getting undercut on a bid by over thirty percent because the other contractor hires illegal workers and doesn't have the same overhead we do, is patently unfair, but I guess that's life.

    end part I.

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  24. Your last quote demonstrates that despite the "Hard Knocks" you identify more with the bosses than your class. In this case, to your detriment since:
    1) you believe that business is benevolent
    2) you believe that they will hire skilled workers rather than the cheapest labour they can hire.

    And don't think that the working class is the only group getting screwed by big business in the US, ever hear of the H-1B visa? If you knew the loopholes on that one!

    The Psychology of economic bubbles is incredibly important, especially since you show an infatuation with one of the longest lasting ones (Gold).

    Really, if classical liberal is libertarian--then why isn't the British Conservative party (a) Libertarian and (B) called Tory.

    Sorry, but Libertarianism is closely related to Anarchism and leftist ideologies than anything vaguely conservative. The use of the word "libertarian" to describe a set of political positions can be tracked to the French cognate, libertaire, which was coined in 1857 by French anarchist communist Joseph Déjacque who used the term to distinguish his libertarian communist approach from the mutualism advocated by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. Hence libertarian has been used as a synonym for left-wing anarchism or libertarian socialism since the 1890s.

    Conservativism promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and supports, at the most, minimal and gradual change in society. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity. Although, there are reactionary strains which oppose modernism and seek to return "to the way things were".

    The term classical liberalism was applied in retrospect to distinguish earlier 19th-century liberalism from the newer social liberalism. Social liberalism is the belief that liberalism should include social justice. It differs from classical liberalism in that it believes it to be a legitimate role of the state to address economic and social issues such as unemployment, health care, and education while simultaneously expanding civil rights. Under social liberalism, the good of the community is viewed as harmonious with the freedom of the individual. Interesting fact, in the United States classical liberalism came to dominate both existing major political parties.

    Sorry, but The US War for Independence was hardly a "conservative act" by any stretch of the imagination. After all, who are the tories (UK and Canada)?

    Satisfactory in that it gave me an insight into your thought patterns, but you fail miserably in political/economic theory. You are trying to ride a unicycle and juggle when you can barely crawl in that arena.

    It explains quite a bit as to how you can be so easily made to work against your own self-interest in the hope you will see a benefit.

    I doubt that you will listen to someone who you consider a "liberal" since you see things in black and white.

    And if you are fine with how the US (or UK) economy has been going the past 30 odd years, then you are definitely a conservative.

    If not, you are due for a serious rethink of your political economics.

    On the whole, I think you believe yourself to be an economically savvy "conservative" who is going to see his world badly shaken up in the next year or so.

    Ignorance isn't bliss, it's a death sentence.

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  25. I just saw this for Mr. G:
    The first notable incarnation of liberal agitation came with the American Revolution, and liberalism fully exploded as a comprehensive movement against the old order during the French Revolution, which set the pace for the future development of human history.

    As I said, I think you are seriously due for a rethink of your position, Mr. G.

    BUt, if your attitude really is Getting undercut on a bid by over thirty percent because the other contractor hires illegal workers and doesn't have the same overhead we do, is patently unfair, but I guess that's life.

    Then you are truly an American conservative. After all, why bother having government tell your competitor who to hire and at what wage?

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  26. Quick question, Mr. G, what is the statutory minimum reserve required for banks?

    I just read your reponse to my Balanced budget-deficit eliminated question. Again, you show a simplistic understanding of events.

    Jackson eliminated the National Debt. First course of action was To get it to zero he gave up on what were then called "internal improvements" and are now known as infrastructure projects (i.e., government spending). HThe "Land speculation" was a sale of government owned land (sale of government resources). The government land sale required that all land bought from the government, except that actually settled on, be paid for in gold or silver.

    Jackson was a Jeffersonian through and through. The smaller the federal government, the more he liked it. And, like Jefferson, he hated banks, speculation and the "money interest."

    Yes, Mr. G, it does sound all too familiar. In fact, I am rather surprised that you aren't more familiar with them.

    They are the policies that you are advocating.

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  27. "While "conservatives" focus on the nominal corporate tax rate of 35%, that’s almost a meaningless number compared to the effective tax rate, AKA what corporations actually pay to the government. And that tax rate is among the lowest in the industrialized world."

    That's whay I'm in favor of doing away with the IRS and going to a "fair tax" scheme. You would still have a somewhat progressive tax base, but there would be no loop holes and everyone would pay their "fair share." Or it could be an end use tax, kind of like the VAT tax, but you still would do away with the IRS. The caveat would be no taxes on groceries and no increase on fuel taxes. In my state, we don't have sales tax on groceries, but we do pay a 38 cent tax on every gallon of fuel we buy.

    "Likewise the infatuation with commodity based currency."

    I would rather have a handful of gold or silver coins than a whole truckload of worthless paper "currency", especially if/when hyperinflation were to hit. When the national currency becomes worthless because the government thought they could print enough money to get out of a recession, a handful of real silver or gold will stand you in good stead.

    "YOu mention the Dow Jones in relation to the Minimum wage, which you also dislike. I would note that the United Kingdom did not have a minimum wage up until 1999. Are you going to tell me that the UK was an economic paradise before it adopted a minimum wage? Again, simplistic."

    Again, I didn't mention the Dow or minimum wage. It must have been mentioned by one of the authors of the articles I linked to. Even though I put up those links, I don't necessarily agree 100% with everything an author says, as I'm sure you don't either. The only minimum wage jobs I had were in HS before I joined the service. Back then, it was $2.10 an hour. What is it now, eight or nine bucks an hour? Let's face it, if you're in your late twenties or early thirties and still making minimum wage, you have no one to blame but yourself. That means that you probably dropped out of HS, have no diploma and no job skills whatsoever.

    End part 1

    Mike G.

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  28. BTW, the English Liberal Party arose from the Whigs (they also supported US Independence). The Whigs were in favour of reducing the power of The Crown and increasing the power of the Parliament. Although their motives in this were originally to gain more power for themselves, the more idealistic Whigs gradually came to support an expansion of democracy for its own sake.

    Two events brought about the UK Liberal Party, the First Reform Act in 1832, which led to the admission of the middle classes to the vote and membership in the House of Commons. It further led eventually to the development of a systematic middle class liberalism.

    Also, opposition to the Corn Laws, import tariffs designed to protect corn (grain) prices in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland against competition from less expensive foreign imports between 1815 and 1846, was another factor in the rise of the UK Liberal party.

    We can get into the term "Classical Liberal", but classical liberalism still included the concepts of social justice which are absent from "conservativism" as practised in the US.

    So, if the concept "I'm all right, Jack, bugger you!" fits your political philosphy, then you are a conservative.

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  29. Part 2;

    "Your last quote demonstrates that despite the "Hard Knocks" you identify more with the bosses than your class. In this case, to your detriment since:
    1) you believe that business is benevolent
    2) you believe that they will hire skilled workers rather than the cheapest labour they can hire."

    I guess I've been lucky in the companies I worked for. I've only had to ask for a raise one time in my thirty years of employment in the construction industry. And that was a long time ago. I can also identify with the "boss" mentality since I'm a self-employed contractor right now.

    "Social liberalism is the belief that liberalism should include social justice. It differs from classical liberalism in that it believes it to be a legitimate role of the state to address economic and social issues such as unemployment, health care, and education while simultaneously expanding civil rights. Under social liberalism, the good of the community is viewed as harmonious with the freedom of the individual."

    Ahhh...social justice...isn't that where Progressive liberals want not only equality of opportunity, (which Conservatives also believe in strongly), but they also want equality of outcome? If that's what Progressives are striving for and get it, then we will all be equally miserable.

    "On the whole, I think you believe yourself to be an economically savvy "conservative" who is going to see his world badly shaken up in the next year or so."

    I've been preparing for the worst, but hoping for the best, you? We don't have any debts, other than the normal monthlies that everyone has, ie., phone, utilities, Insurance; no mortgage, no car payments and no credit cards. We paid everything off.

    "BUt, if your attitude really is Getting undercut on a bid by over thirty percent because the other contractor hires illegal workers and doesn't have the same overhead we do, is patently unfair, but I guess that's life."

    What I mean about "overhead" is things like Workman's Comp Insurance, taking taxes and FICA, ect. They pay their workers "under the table" in cash. They also use a lot of "day labor." Here's an anecdote...true story;

    A home owner wanted me to install some casement windows in his home. I gave him a fair price, but it was "too high" for him, so he hired some illegals to do the job for him. Hey, the windows work great...if you climb up on the roof to operate them. They installed the windows from the inside, got paid and took off, never to be seen again. The guy called me back and asked me if I could fix them. I horse laughed him and told him he couldn't afford it and to get the original installers to fix it.

    Granted, the homeowner was a dumbass for not inspecting the work before paying the bill, but then, you get what you pay for.

    Have a good one,

    Mike G.

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  30. Sorry, but the Boston Tea Party was NOT in reaction to the Tea Tax, but to the British East India Company's monopoly on tea.

    British East India Company was the verge of bankruptcy at that time. The British government passed the Tea Act of 1773 in an effort to save the Company. This act gave the company the right to export its merchandise directly to the colonies without paying any of the regular taxes that were imposed on the colonial merchants. Prior to that time, the colonial merchants acted had traditionally served as the middlemen in the Tea trade.

    The Tea Act provided no new tax on tea. The British government assumed that most colonists would welcome the new law because it would reduce the price of tea to consumers by removing the middlemen.

    The American colonies had been required to import their tea only from Britain since 1721. A major source of opposition to the 1773 Tea Act was the fact that it lowered the price of imported tea and therefore hurt smugglers who had been illegally importing Dutch tea.

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  31. So...you had to go back to medieval times to find this child marriage thing in Europe? Islamists are doing the child marriage thing today- by their very own words. Wow, that sure does prove your point. You am smarterers than the people who look at what's going on now coz you googled old history. Thank Allah we have you! Good little infidel, I save you for next to last.

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